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OB..
15-04-10, 23:04
http://www.sareferees.co.za/laws/laws_explained/clips/2359380.htm

A useful clip. Clearly the modern interpretation is no longer that "it is where he lands that counts", but where he catches the ball.

Mat 04
15-04-10, 23:04
Hasn't this always been the case OB??

I thought the "where he lands" argument was only relevant when the ball has crossed the plane of touch??

Rit Hinners
15-04-10, 23:04
If he was in touch when he caught the ball it would be direct to touch. In this case he would be in touch BEFORE gaining possession.

In the clip, he clearly caught the ball and carried it to touch. He had possession BEFORE going to touch.

AR is correct.

OB..
16-04-10, 00:04
In the quiz Mark Lawrence set a few years back on the SArefs site this scenario was the first question, and the answer was that the player was deemed to be in touch when he caught the ball because that was where he landed. This was apparently based on an agreement reached by the officials before the 2003 RWC.

It surprised us at the time, and now seems to be dead and buried.

Ian_Cook
16-04-10, 02:04
When I saw that Live while watching the game, two things immediately came to mind.

1 This will be posted on the SA Referees website

2. OB will bring it up on this forum

Note that the commentators got this one right.

The Sky Rugby commentary team have been getting law coaching from a couple of NZRU referees, and feedback when they make statements that are wrong in Law. While they still get stuff wrong, I have noticed that they are getting better and better at this kind of marginal call.

Robert Burns
16-04-10, 04:04
But if he catches the ball whilst being over the plane of touch, and then lands in the field of play, it's play on....Where's the consistency?

Rit Hinners
16-04-10, 04:04
But if he catches the ball whilst being over the plane of touch, and then lands in the field of play, it's play on....Where's the consistency?

I'm not seeing this scenario.
Are you saying a player standing in touch, dives for the ball as it is about to alight from a kick somewhere near the touchline, catches the ball and then lands on the field of play? I've never seen that done.

If the above is true, I'd have to say it depended upon where the ball was when he caught it.

If over the field of play.... play on.

If outside the plane of touch then line out to his team... Unless the kick he caught was a PK by the opposition... Lineout to them.

Robert Burns
16-04-10, 06:04
Nope, I'm saying player is standing in touch waiting for the ball, as it gets to him he jumps, catches the ball, and lands in the field of play.

Under the law (Which we had a debate about before and it was decided it depends where feet are, which is not what the law says), it should be play on.


Law 19 Definitions.
If a player jumps and catches the ball, both feet must land in the playing area otherwise the ball is in touch or touch-in-goal.


The definition of this laws seems to then imply that if you catch a ball and your feet are not in touch, then the ball is in touch, which is obviously what the player in the video above believed. Now I believe the approach taken above to be the sensible option as he clearly caught the ball in play. However the above definition clearly states if you do it the other way (jump from touch into FOP) then the ball is alive, play on.

Ian_Cook
16-04-10, 06:04
Nope, I'm saying player is standing in touch waiting for the ball, as it gets to him he jumps, catches the ball, and lands in the field of play.

Under the law (Which we had a debate about before and it was decided it depends where feet are, which is not what the law says), it should be play on.



The definition of this laws seems to then imply that if you catch a ball and your feet are not in touch, then the ball is in touch, which is obviously what the player in the video above believed. Now I believe the approach taken above to be the sensible option as he clearly caught the ball in play. However the above definition clearly states if you do it the other way (jump from touch into FOP) then the ball is alive, play on.

That makes no sense Robert.

If he is standing in touch and the ball crosses the plane, and he bats it back into the FoP (feet in the air or not) the ball is in touch.

As far as I am aware, the ONLY time the ball can cross the plane and remain in play is if it is caught by a player standing in the FoP.

Robert Burns
16-04-10, 07:04
You are dead right about batting back into play.

And that definition is right under the one I quoted in the law book.

However if he catches it, the law I quoted applies, which clearly says the ball is not in touch. It does not have any requirements of where the ball is cought in relation to the plane of touch, (which the definition after does), so for this scenario, where the ball is caught must not matter.

OB..
16-04-10, 10:04
Under the law (Which we had a debate about before and it was decided it depends where feet are, which is not what the law says), it should be play on.

Law 19 Definitions.
If a player jumps and catches the ball, both feet must land in the playing area otherwise the ball is in touch or touch-in-goal.
However the above definition clearly states if you do it the other way (jump from touch into FOP) then the ball is alive, play on.

An earlier part of the definitions says

The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

You are assuming it does not matter where he starts from, but if we consider him to be still in touch when he jumps in the air but before he crosses the plane, then the ball is in touch before he lands.

My view is that the Definitions are so badly written that trying to treat them as a piece of logic does not work. So let's be sensible about it, as in so many other cases.

Robert Burns
16-04-10, 12:04
I agree, I do tow the line in the aim to keep consistency, but I would love to see these written more clearly.

Taff
16-04-10, 13:04
I'm not seeing this scenario. Are you saying a player standing in touch, dives for the ball as it is about to alight from a kick somewhere near the touchline, catches the ball and then lands on the field of play? I've never seen that done. If the above is true, I'd have to say it depended upon where the ball was when he caught it. If over the field of play.... play on.I've seen it happen; funnily enough in the game I TJd for Scarlet Al. I would say he'd done it before. As the ball came sailing down towards the touch line, the home player ran into touch waiting for it and jumped back onto the FoP, catching the ball cleanly before it crossed the plane of touch. The ball hadn't crossed the plane of touch at any time, so I didn't say anything, and nobody complained.

OB..
16-04-10, 13:04
I would love to see these written more clearly.

Here is my version. I have tried to take the logical approach of identifying the various possibilities and then catering for each feasible combination.

DEFINITIONS
‘Kicked directly into touch’ means that the ball was kicked into touch without landing on the playing area, and without touching a player or the referee.
‘The 22’ is the area between the goal-line, the 22-metre line, and the touch lines, including the 22-metre line but excluding the goal-line and touch lines.
The line-of-touch is an imaginary line in the field-of-play at right angles to the touch-line through the place where the ball crossed the touchline, or as other wise specified by law.
Touch includes touch-in-goal wherever appropriate.
The plane of touch is the vertical space rising immediately above the inside edge of the touch-line.

The ball is IN when it is entirely between the two planes of touch.
The ball is IN TOUCH when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touch-line or anything or anyone (except a player) on or beyond the touch-line, whether on the ground or in the air.
The ball is OUT when it has crossed or is crossing the plane of touch, but it is not necessarily 'in touch'.
If the ball goes OUT and then comes back IN without touching anything, play continues.

A player is IN TOUCH if any part of him is on the ground on or over the touch-line.
A player is IN PLAY If both feet are on the ground in the field of play.
A player is still IN PLAY if, standing with both feet on the ground in the field of play, he reaches across the plane of touch.
If a player is in the air when he plays the ball, he is IN TOUCH if his torso has broken or crossed the plane of touch, but is otherwise IN PLAY. [Comment: this point is not universally agreed – but needs to be!]

If a player goes IN TOUCH while carrying the ball, the ball is IN TOUCH.

If a player IN TOUCH plays a ball that is OUT, the ball is IN TOUCH.
If a player IN TOUCH catches a ball that is IN, the ball is IN TOUCH.
If a player IN TOUCH plays, otherwise than by catching, a ball that is IN, play continues.

If a player IN PLAY plays a ball that is OUT, he may attempt to bring it back into play by kicking, catching, or knocking it. If in so doing he knocks it forward, Law 12 applies.

chopper15
16-04-10, 16:04
I thought I heard the airborne catcher shout 'MARK'. He could've got a kick then, even if he did end up in touch.:hap:

talbazar
19-04-10, 16:04
Here is my version. I have tried to take the logical approach of identifying the various possibilities and then catering for each feasible combination.

DEFINITIONS
../..
The ball is IN when it is entirely between the two planes of touch.
The ball is IN TOUCH when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touch-line or anything or anyone (except a player) on or beyond the touch-line, whether on the ground or in the air.
The ball is OUT when it has crossed or is crossing the plane of touch, but it is not necessarily 'in touch'.
If the ball goes OUT and then comes back IN without touching anything, play continues.

A player is IN TOUCH if any part of him is on the ground on or over the touch-line.
--> /!\ I reckon the important part her is "on the ground"
A player is IN PLAY If both feet are on the ground in the field of play.
A player is still IN PLAY if, standing with both feet on the ground in the field of play, he reaches across the plane of touch.
If a player is in the air when he plays the ball, he is IN TOUCH if his torso has broken or crossed the plane of touch, but is otherwise IN PLAY. [Comment: this point is not universally agreed – but needs to be!]
../..

To me (and what taught during my course) if the player is standing OUT, jumps in the air, catches of tap the ball and land inside the field of play, the ball hasn't touched anything or anyone being OUT, it is hence play on.

In that example, the ball hasn't crossed the plane of touch, hence, it's still in play when the player catches it... He hence carried the ball out.
To me the A.R. is right...

OB..
19-04-10, 17:04
To me (and what taught during my course) if the player is standing OUT, jumps in the air, catches of tap the ball and land inside the field of play, the ball hasn't touched anything or anyone being OUT, it is hence play on.
This is argued about. If the player was still outside the plane of touch when he caught the ball I think most people regard him as being in touch regardless of where he lands.

I have tries to distill the current law into a logical format, which highlights an important gap in the law that we all know needs sorting out. I chose a point of view but put in the caveat [Comment: this point is not universally agreed – but needs to be!]

chopper15
19-04-10, 20:04
Wouldn’t a ‘lead in’ approach be more immediate and helpful for general interpretive reference? eg.

DEFINITIONS – Touch: Ground located beyond that edge of the touch-lines adjacent to the Playing Area. Touch includes any active players and all ground contacts within and beyond this area. ‘In the FoP’ refers to a flighted or loose ball in play within the confines of the FoP.

A. In Touch: (a) Flighted or loose ball contacting Touch.
(b) Player holding or carrying ball contacting Touch (taken in).
(c) Player in contact with Touch picking up stationary ball in the FoP (taken in).
(d) Player in contact with Touch picking up moving ball from FoP. (not taken in).
(e) Player in contact with Touch catching flighted ball over the FoP (not taken in).
(f) ’Kicked Directly into Touch’, first and only contact of flighted ball being with Touch OR
player in contact with Touch catching the ball over the FoP (not taken in).

B. Not in Touch : (a) Flighted ball over, but not in contact with, Touch.
(b).Player in contact with Touch deflecting flighted or loose ball in the FoP away from Touch.