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mbkingsmill
29-08-06, 16:08
Context: Pre-season ten's tournament where referee's have been instructed not to use Yellow Cards. Instructions given to ref's were for repeated technical infringements to instruct the coach to replace the player for the remaining duration of that match, and for foul play offences that warrant it to issue a red card.

Event: Semi-Final of the plate competition Red v Blue - Red Leading 21-7 with one minute to go. Blue Fly-half chips through (into Red's 22) and starts to chase his own kick, red prop deliberately impeads fly-half from chasing kick by putting his arm out so that a straight forearm catches the Blue Player in the face - Neither player is injured and play is stopped immediately with no retaliation or hand bags from either side.

What would be your decision?

Simon Thomas
29-08-06, 16:08
If any likelihood of a try being scored exists - award a penalty try. It is a semi-final after all too.

In any case IMHO prop should go for a walk and either be replaced, or maybe goes for straight red.
Even if it is pre-season and agreement was amde not to use yellows, for a deliberate professional foul, that was short arm to face, I am feeling pretty convinced of my decision. Intent was 100% there.

So I would give a red card, and suggest that by taking away my yellow sanction the organisers / coaches had left me with no other option.

Robert Burns
29-08-06, 16:08
I agree, It should be the players actions that mean no yellows, not an instruction on the referees.

I would have Red too, if it's deliberate what other choice do you have? And if close enough to the try line, a Penalty Try too.

pending
29-08-06, 17:08
That would definitely be a red card (and a penalty try if one would have been scored) given the option of no yellow, based on the fact that it was a professional foul with intent.

What level match was it? I know over here at the high school level, and most lower college levels this sort of thing is likely to happen, and when a penalty is awarded, the guilty party legitametely doesn't understand what the call is for. Granted at the upper club levels, I would likely have gone right for the red card (even if yellow was an option) based on the intent as well as the manner in which the attacking player was obstructed.

OB..
29-08-06, 17:08
I agree - under normal conditions, probably red, at least yellow, plus consideration of a penalty try.

What on earth was the point of not using yellow cards?!

mbkingsmill
30-08-06, 09:08
The reasoning for not using yellows was not explained to us other than that was what the tournament organiser wanted.

With regards to the specific incident raised the red player was shown a red card and the blue team were given a penalty (from which they subsequently scored). I didn't think to consider a penalty try as the ball had only just gone into the red 22 and the incident itself took place just outside the 22 and there were other defenders who looked like they were going to get to the ball first anyway.

After the game the red player tried to protest against the red card saying that it wasn't fair as it meant that he would miss the final and that it shouldn't have been a straight red because it was his first offence. To which he was told the red card stands and to take the issue of the direct red rather than a considered yellow, up with his team manager as the team managers were told at the pre-tournament briefing that yellows would not be used.

Mike Whittaker
30-08-06, 10:08
This all goes to show how careful referees should be to accept instruction from 'organisers' regarding law application in a competition. The laws are there for a very good reason (or so we hope) and not to be used selectively at the whim of individuals.

It appears to be common practice now at trial matches for yellows either not to be used or used to enforce replacements. Accept this practice and the rod is made for one's own back.

Maybe if organisers were told that without yellows all foul play will be dealt with by use of a red, they may think again!

I understand that at national league level all yellow card incidents have to be reported to the RFU. One hopes that this requirement is not being circumvented...

mbkingsmill
30-08-06, 11:08
This tournament was a local pre-season tournament and the highest level of team was from Midlands 2 East and there were ten referees of varying levels from level 5 down to level 14 (myself).

I took my instructions from one of the more senior ref's and as a newbie did not feel in a position to question them at the time.

Overall, with the exception of this one incident, the tournament passed off without any other notable problems there were a couple of other cases where referee's ask coaches to replace players but these were for repeated technical infringements.

jboulet4648
30-08-06, 13:08
It's funny how teams think that pre-season "scrimmages" should mean that they have no regard for the law. I reffed one a few weeks ago, two Div 1 mens clubs from separate territories, and both sides were killing the ball at the tackle either by diving over or not rolling away. Being somewhat more lenient than I may have in a league match, after the third one in the second 20 minute half (normally at this level, the second time in this time period, I would give the warning), I took both captains and said enough, next time the ball is killed for either side, people are sitting. WHat do you know? Next five minutes we were playing 14 on 14. Sidelines were yelling, its only a scrimmage.....Oh OKay I guess that means the laws don't apply.

ExHookah
30-08-06, 14:08
I agree with you Judah. A pre season match is designed as a practice, so the players should be practising how to play properly. If they can't stay on their feet then it's a sign of bad technique and they need more practise.

Also, if it's the match I think it is, both of those teams have been playing through the summer, including Saranac, so they don't really have the excuse of "rust".

Simon Thomas
30-08-06, 16:08
Having run touch in two pre-season friendlies in the last two weeks at level 5 and 4 (English SW1 Reading v Beddau of Welsh National 1, and National League 3club Havant v Newbridge ofWelsh Premier League 1), I can categorically state that pre-season friendlies / warm up matches cannot (and should not) be refeered in any differerent way to normal league matches. Both referees tried to do so and ended up with major managment issues they had to work very hard to recover from.

Why change your style and successful techniques ?

Also the National Panel Ref last Saturday applied the new RFU National Leagues advantage protocol - aimed at cutting out the untidy throwing forward or kick sideways to touch if the side don't want it.
So the protocol is :
the referee calls advantage (penalty) or advantage (scrum) and he will play it out unless he is told by nominated player (usually scrum or fly half) that 'we don't want it'. If told we don;t want it referee blows immediatley.
Coaches and skippers agree to this pre-match. Seemed to work very well.
Both Welsh sides said - we play advantage always anyway and never throw/kick the ball away.

Simon Thomas
30-08-06, 16:08
Having run touch in two pre-season friendlies in the last two weeks at level 5 and 4 (English SW1 Reading v Beddau of Welsh National 1, and National League 3club Havant v Newbridge ofWelsh Premier League 1), I can categorically state that pre-season friendlies / warm up matches cannot (and should not) be refeered in any differerent way to normal league matches. Both referees tried to do so and ended up with major managment issues they had to work very hard to recover from.

Why change your style and successful techniques ?

Also the National Panel Ref last Saturday applied the new RFU National Leagues advantage protocol - aimed at cutting out the untidy throwing forward or kick sideways to touch if the side don't want it.
So the protocol is :
the referee calls advantage (penalty) or advantage (scrum) and he will play it out unless he is told by nominated player (usually scrum or fly half) that 'we don't want it'. If told we don;t want it referee blows immediatley.
Coaches and skippers agree to this pre-match. Seemed to work very well.
Both Welsh sides said - we play advantage always anyway and never throw/kick the ball away.

outofpuff
30-08-06, 19:08
Its important to note that players want a practise to hone their skills, but referees also need to 'get back in the groove'.
I always say I'll give you 3 sessions when i will be lenient, but the fourth (or last) I will referee as I would on a saturday - you guys need to know when you will give away three popints now not next week.

Account Deleted
30-08-06, 22:08
If any likelihood of a try being scored exists - award a penalty try.

Surely not on? Only a penalty try if a try was "probable". "any likelihood" seems a bit vague to me.

Mike Whittaker
30-08-06, 23:08
Both Welsh sides said - we play advantage always anyway and never throw/kick the ball away.

Well if that is what the Welsh sides said, then of course we believe them.

Did I ever tell you about the Loose Head who said he had never collapsed a scrum... It was always the tight head what did it?

Davet
31-08-06, 13:08
"it shouldn't have been a straight red because it was his first offence"

Popular misconception. You do not have to be warned for an offence before you earn a red card.

As to the organisers decree that no YC would used, we did manage OK for many years befire they were introduced, and so we know we can do it; but it does reduce the weapons in the ref's armoury, for no real gain. It will simply result in some offences being Penalsied and Red carded that otherwise would not (and some penalised with no card.)

In this case then the organisers presumably did away with YCs because they did not want player suspended for professional fouls - to keep continuity in a side, evem at the xpense of penalties - but foul play is different, and in the old days a straight arm tackle could easily have been a Red Card - maybe more so then than now, when many refs will a give Yellow as a half way house.

Which wasn't really the intention when they were introduced.

ex-lucy
31-08-06, 14:08
Wise words again from ST:
"I can categorically state that pre-season friendlies / warm up matches cannot (and should not) be refeered in any differerent way to normal league matches. Both referees tried to do so and ended up with major managment issues they had to work very hard to recover from. "

Why change your style and successful techniques ?

I have come unstuck whenever i have agreed to be more 'lenient' in so-called friendlies/ training matches. Also games in samer criteria, which i have watched. It just doesnt work in my experience.

"Also the National Panel Ref last Saturday applied the new RFU National Leagues advantage protocol - aimed at cutting out the untidy throwing forward or kick sideways to touch if the side don't want it.
So the protocol is :
the referee calls advantage (penalty) or advantage (scrum) and he will play it out unless he is told by nominated player (usually scrum or fly half) that 'we don't want it'. If told we don;t want it referee blows immediatley.
Coaches and skippers agree to this pre-match. Seemed to work very well."

I have been doing this for a couple of seasons in higher level matches e.g. 7,8,9, where #10s/#9s are more intelligent/ savvy. And i can say it does work for me and them.

Simon Thomas
31-08-06, 14:08
Mike W - it was a formal coach / skipper 'contract' conversation, so that is how it was worked and not once did Newbridge not play a given advantage.

All The Time Ref - yes I agree that the law says probable to award a penalty try, but if they are going to p*ss me about by removing my yellow card sanction as it is a pre-season fun tourney, then I will do the same and award a pen try for likelihood of try at a red card offence !

Mike Whittaker
31-08-06, 18:08
Mike W - it was a formal coach / skipper 'contract' conversation, so that is how it was worked and not once did Newbridge not play a given advantage.



Simon, your posting did not say that this only applied to the trial being played. Words such as 'always' and 'never' suggest a more lasting practice which is why I made my comment. My view stands in spite of their action on that occasion. :)