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oxped
16-09-06, 20:09
Penalty awarded to Red. They kick for touch, but the ball lands in the field of play and then rolls in goal and then dead, with no-one touching the ball. Is the correct decision a 22m drop out (ie no option of a scrum) because it was kicked from a penalty?

Thanks

Simon Griffiths
16-09-06, 21:09
No, there is no exception due to the fact it is a PK. There is still the option. (I know, I made this mistake a couple seasons back - haven't forgotten it since).

jeff
16-09-06, 21:09
No, there is no exception due to the fact it is a PK. There is still the option. (I know, I made this mistake a couple seasons back - haven't forgotten it since).
I agree, done this in a midweek game gave the team the option of the scrum or 22.:D

Deeps
16-09-06, 23:09
If the penalty kick had been at goal and missed, that would be a 22 drop out as I am sure you are aware.

Mike Whittaker
16-09-06, 23:09
If the penalty kick had been at goal and missed, that would be a 22 drop out as I am sure you are aware.

Of course the difficulty comes in games at a level where it is difficult to understand exactly what the kicker was trying to do...

Remember occasion when a player was kicking penalty, at goal supposedly, from far out on the right of the pitch. Ball travelled perpendicular to touch line as far as teammate on opposite side of pitch (chatting to spectator). He picked it up and ran in for a try...

It was a very lowly game and I let the captains decide the score, and after many pints all round (yes, it was that long ago) nobody cared...:)

Number8
18-09-06, 03:09
Of course the difficulty comes in games at a level where it is difficult to understand exactly what the kicker was trying to do...


In modern times, if the team indicates they are going for goal, you should be able to assume the ball will head towards the sticks...
In the case of a woeful kicker, and the ball ends up in teamate's hands, what do you do?
In the case of a very skillful kicker (he's 6 / 6 on the day), and the ball ends up in a teamate's hands, what do you do?

Deeps
18-09-06, 13:09
In the case of a very skillful kicker (he's 6 / 6 on the day), and the ball ends up in a teamate's hands, what do you do?

If you judge that the play was deliberate and are clear that he had informed you and hence the defenders that he was intending to kick for goal then you might consider that to be an act contrary to good sportsmanship Law 10.4(k), disallow any apparent score and reverse the penalty. Of course, should the defenders manage to take advantage then a 'friendly word' at the next stoppage might be all that is needed.

ExHookah
18-09-06, 14:09
...and a missed drop goal is also a 22 and does not have the scrum option.

Now how about defenders making a mark from a missed drop goal?

Pablo
18-09-06, 14:09
"A mark cannot be made from a kick-off" (kick-off, being defined in Law 13, as the kick to start each half of the match)

There is no mention of disallowing marks made from shots on goal, therefore I can only assume it must be allowed.

Curiously, neither is there any mention of no mark being allowed from a restart kick (ie., after a score)... Is this deliberate, or have the IRB left another loophole in the Law?

Pablo
18-09-06, 14:09
...and a missed drop goal is also a 22 and does not have the scrum option.

Covered by Law 22.8, for reference...

Mike Whittaker
18-09-06, 14:09
"A mark cannot be made from a kick-off" (kick-off, being defined in Law 13, as the kick to start each half of the match)

There is no mention of disallowing marks made from shots on goal, therefore I can only assume it must be allowed.

Curiously, neither is there any mention of no mark being allowed from a restart kick (ie., after a score)... Is this deliberate, or have the IRB left another loophole in the Law?

Pablo, my law book says, "A mark cannot be made from a kick-off, or a restart kick except for a drop out."

From shots on goal a mark is certainly allowed. :)

PS 22.8 is dead ball

ExHookah
18-09-06, 14:09
I had a full back make a mark from a missed drop goal at the weekend, and give him the mark.

I did also have to have a quiet word with him about the timing of his call. He called out mark well before the ball actually arrived, and also made the arm wave that a Gridiron player would make to signal for a Fair Catch. So everyone knew what he wanted. I just suggested that he call closer to the arrival of the ball, because in a higher intensity match another ref might not award it, which could lead to him stopping under the assumption he had the mark, and then getting flattened into the dirt by a full speed flanker.

Pablo
18-09-06, 15:09
Mike - a loophole closed between the 2005 Law book (which I already had in digital copy) and the 2006 Law book (which is at home, but I have just downloaded for reference).

Law 22.8 Ball kick dead in goal

If a team kicks the ball through their opponent's in-goal, into touch-in-goal or on or over the dead ball line, except by and unsuccessful kick at goal or attempted dropped goal, the defending team has two choices:

To have a drop out,
or
To have a scrum at the place where the ball was kicked and they throw in.

(my emphasis)

22.8 clearly covers the eventuality of a non-kick-at-goal-kick going immediately dead, as per Deeps' first post in this thread regarding the exception of a kick-at-goal. In the absence of any further instructions from the Law, kicks at goal which go dead must be covered by Law 22.11

Pablo
18-09-06, 15:09
Nick - a management issue, surely? OK, the Law book says you must call "Mark" "at the same time", but I'm fairly certain the purpose of that phrase is to make sure people don't call "Mark" AFTER they've caught the ball. If someone calls "Mark" a couple of seconds before catching the ball, I think a referee would look really petty were he not to award the kick.


You can keep full license to laugh really hard if the would-be marker then drops the ball...