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crossref
07-09-10, 15:09
Ok, so this weekend I am reaching the dizzy heights of U16.. and it will be my first match with lifting in the LO....
...and, of course, for the PLAYERS, their first match with lifting

any advice?
what should I look for?
where would you stand for this game?

PaulDG
07-09-10, 15:09
any advice?

The players will have been coached for this so, in general, things should be safe. (In the unlikely event that it isn't, don't worry that the Law doesn't give you the right to ban lifting, ban it anyway.)


what should I look for?

Make sure the gap is set before allowing the ball in. Don't listen to "we want to go quick, ref".


where would you stand for this game?

Never in the same place. The general "at the front, on the putting in side's side" is likely to be a good way to start but move around.

Dixie
07-09-10, 16:09
The players will have been coached for this so, in general, things should be safe. Ever the optimist. The season started last week, they've got a game this week. THEY'VE GOT NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING! I wouldn't be surprised to see no lifting - or to hear one coach ask if they game can take place without it, as they've not had time to coach it. Irrespective, this is not your issue. If they agree no lifting and then one side lifts, that's legal. You just have to make sure the LoTG are observed.

As with all junior games, 90% or more of the throws will go to the front. Moving around is a good idea IF IT HELPS, but if you are deliberately and knowingly obscuring your view of the action in order to tick a refereeing box, that's a fail in my book. You need to be able to see all "across the line" offences including interference with the jumper while aloft - that's the most likely offence, and the most dangerous one. Don't compromise your ability to see it just because an assessor has a box to tick (especially on a Sunday, when the assessor is still tucked up in bed).

Apart from the across-the-line offences (which you can prevent by insisting on a wide gap), the next most likely is an error rather than a cheating offence - lifters getting ahead of the ball carrier. It would be as well to ping this at this stage (after a warning explanation forst, of course) so that blasé coaches know they've got some work to do. Let it go on the basis that it's their first game, and you set up problems for refs in multiple future years.

Good luck - let us know how it goes. I imagine you'll have far more grief with the SH's, as they get to follow the ball round this year and pull each other's shirts and stand in the way obstructively at a #8 pick-up. Testosterone is a real issue at this age group - take firm control.

Enrique
07-09-10, 16:09
Ok, so this weekend I am reaching the dizzy heights of U16.. and it will be my first match with lifting in the LO....
...and, of course, for the PLAYERS, their first match with lifting

any advice?
what should I look for?
where would you stand for this game?

Check that jumpers are taken back safely to ground (young players' anxiety usually conspires against that: lifters sometimes release the jumper as soon as he has passed the ball to the SH).

Check that the jumper is not tackled in the air or wrongfully obstructed otherwise.

Check that the lifters donīt obstruct opponents trying to legally tackle the jumper (usually a trick used at later ages, but we can contribute to erradicate that unfair practice).

Check fake throws/early jumps/lifts.

Obviously, all other checks apply (non-throwing hooker at 2m/2m, offside lines, number of players at lineout, etc.)

Positioning:
Start as recommended by PaulDG above, more or less opposite to the non-throwing-side's hooker, and standing in a position that allows you to have a glimpse of both offisde lines.

When the LO is close to non-thowing-side's ingoal, place yourself mirroring the above position, i.e., on defence's side. Watch your running lines so to avoid obstructing players' movements.

I assume you are not going to have ARs in a U16 game, so you canīt get their help to control the "head" of the lineout. f you're confident that the situation at the front of the lineout is OK after several throws, you can start alternating the initial position with the "zipper" one, i.e., on the line of touch, five meters or so infield from the "tail".

I wouldnīt recommend positioning on either side between 5 and 15m lines (but YMMV ;))

PaulDG
07-09-10, 17:09
I assume you are not going to have ARs in a U16 game, so ....

Enrique,

In England, there's no possibility whatever of ARs at an U16 game.

What there's likely to be is a keen parent from each side will take a flag and provide "helpful" advice throughout the match. (Generally helping you out with things you're missing the other side doing and helping you with bits of Law you're not sure of like "he's got to let him up" and "that was a double movement, ref".)

You learn to be completely deaf to them. (Which is a problem when you do actually get proper ARs - you're so used to ignoring the guys with flags that having some who can really help you is a skill that has to be worked on and very, very few of us get to practice it.)

didds
07-09-10, 17:09
I'm generally with Dixie here - I would expect them to have done SOME lineout lifting practise, and some may have even done it during the latter half of U15s under the tactical concept for insurance's sake of "lifting to catch a kick off" . In England anyway they may have done it at U15 county if they have reached those heights. Or for all I know they have been doing it at their school for years.

But safety is paramount.

didds

crossref
07-09-10, 17:09
If they agree no lifting and then one side lifts, that's legal. You just have to make sure the LoTG are observed.

That's an interesting perspective - it makes sense - I think I'd need to make sure the coaches understood that approach before the game; I think they' be expecting a mutual agreement to be reffed.

didds
07-09-10, 17:09
I'm not disagreeing, but it strikes me that if the coaches agreed to uncontested scrummages and one side didn;t follow suit that wold be liable to a PK at least... even though it may be otherwise strictly legal in their age group to contest. (ST&E etc notwithstanding... and its not you at that juncture that has ordered uncontested...)

???

didds

crossref
07-09-10, 17:09
well, an unexpected ambush push would clearly be dangerous, so I guess safety-first covers that one.

it is an interesting qu. though one year at u12 I reffed a game that was (unusually) a club v a school, and so we had to agree some compromise laws.

Amongst other things we agreed to ban #8 pickups. It would have been churlish to refuse to ref that, IMO, and indeed when the school #8 forgot, and picked up, I did indeed ping him.

Dixie
07-09-10, 18:09
I'm not disagreeing, but it strikes me that if the coaches agreed to uncontested scrummages and one side didn;t follow suit that wold be liable to a PK at least... even though it may be otherwise strictly legal in their age group to contest. (ST&E etc notwithstanding... and its not you at that juncture that has ordered uncontested...) Chalk and cheese, Didds. An uncontested scrum is ordered by the referee because it would not be safe for them to compete against each other - you can't have just one side of the scrum being uncompetitive on safety grounds while the oppo push them all over the place. So if the coach tells the ref his lot aren't STE, the ref will order uncontested scrums for both, as the LOTG requires.

There's no mechanism in LOTG for the ref to order uncontested lineouts. If Red aren't suitably trained to compete with Blue, Blue will simply win all lineout ball - no worries from a safety perspective. If Blue coach and Red coach make a gentleman's agreement which their players then renege on, then as long as the players play within the LOTG, I have no reason to blow the whistle. They can call each other all sorts of harsh names after the game, which again is no concern of mine. It's a bit like agreeing not to tackle the ageing prop too hard - is it a PK if gets clobbered?

tim White
07-09-10, 18:09
(especially on a Sunday, when the assessor is still tucked up in bed).



Oi!!!!!!! :nono: :nono:

Davet
07-09-10, 20:09
Safety is your prime concern.

Check that lifting is not from too low on the legs.
Check the lifted player is returned safely to ground by his teammates
Zero tolerence for interference by the opposition in the player in the air, don't let them touch him.

TigerCraig
07-09-10, 23:09
Down here where we start lifting at Under 12 it is common in the pre season trial games for that age group to have uncontested lifted lineouts (ie only the throwing side lifts). If the other team "forget" we would order the throw to be taken again.

Once competition games start though, away they go.

Once our boys get to Under 14 or 15 we start seeing all the lineout variations the seniors use - short lineouts, throws to back, swapping positions etc etc. Keeps us on our toes.

didds
08-09-10, 19:09
Chalk and cheese, Didds. An uncontested scrum is ordered by the referee because it would not be safe for them to compete against each other - you can't have just one side of the scrum being uncompetitive on safety grounds while the oppo push them all over the place. So if the coach tells the ref his lot aren't STE, the ref will order uncontested scrums for both, as the LOTG requires.



My bad. I didbn;t mean that one side's FR isn;t STE,... it could be (for example) a U16s match that includes U15s (in england this is possible under youth variations) who are playing in the FR... they are ST&E but one coach may request uncontested because of the size/strength differential in the FR players [this has happened with a side I coached... the oppo were in this situation ... it was the only way they could get all the u15s and U16s a game, which made perfect sense to me].

So - all FR are ST&E, the ref has not ordered uncontested, but the coaches have agreed to uncontested and the ref goes along with it... akin to the lifting in l/outs scenario.

is that clearer? :-)

didds

menace
09-09-10, 05:09
....
...and, of course, for the PLAYERS, their first match with lifting

any advice?
what should I look for?
where would you stand for this game?

As TigerC mentioned in oz we start lifting at u12..so by U16 it is usually pretty safe and a lot easier to manage/see. But for those kids new to it at u12/13 and 14 the games I reffed in this group I saw a few things. Firstly you'll know they'll grab the lightest kid and throw him up there..so to echo the rest..watch the safety element of returning the kid to soil.

As it is new, the kid in the air doesn't know when to give up the contest even for a lost cause of a throw so he will grab, reach and thrust themselves in any direction to compete for the ball...this often means instability and not unusual for the lifters to not being able to control the squirming worm in the air. I found that the kid in the air more often leans forwards meaning near face-plants or them preventing the ball going 5m (& many howls from the side line!).

Also the kids are less controlled in the air and so the ball is not very often caught cleanly so lost forward in the lineout is common (but often missed or let go). So if you can spot those and play appropriate advantage that keeps the hounds on the sideline content.

I also noticed that not straight throw is easier to spot by looking at which hand the catcher leads with (and look so that a single outer arm alone is not used to deflect the ball to receiver)

I found that I could generally spot all these from the front position - especially until I knew how well they controlled the lifting and the ball throw.

the magpie
11-09-10, 07:09
As mentioned by the other Aussie refs, we've got younger age groups lifting. I didn't start reffing kids until mid season

One thing I will mention, this is from me as a lineout jumper rather than a referee, is to watch the losing jumper hooking his arm around the winning jumper's inside arm. Those new to it might do it innocently, but once they realise what they're doing, it becomes dangerous. Best case, it may make the winning jumper fumble the ball, worst case, it will bring the winning jumper to the ground in a screaming hurry.

I don't know if English Under 19's laws have similar variations as the Australian ones do, but they're not meant to lift from below the shorts. A quick scan along the line picks that up early.

Phil E
11-09-10, 08:09
I don't know if English Under 19's laws have similar variations as the Australian ones do, but they're not meant to lift from below the shorts. A quick scan along the line picks that up early.

Only from behind :wow:

Iron_Lung
11-09-10, 13:09
Only from behind :wow:

Careful how you say that... :chin:

But you can see the position of the arms of the lifters as long as you're not standing in the zipper :nono: If you angle at 45 degrees from the back of the lineout (as refs will often do to manage the back and the backlines), this angle still lets you see where the lifters hands are going and therefore if they are lifting illegally...

Dixie
12-09-10, 08:09
I don't know if English Under 19's laws have similar variations as the Australian ones do, but they're not meant to lift from below the shorts. A quick scan along the line picks that up early.


Only from behind :wow: RFU Schools & Youth Regulation 7.3.1:
A player must not support a jumping team-mate below the shorts from behind or below the thighs from the front.
Penalty: Penalty Kick.

In that regard, it's very little different from the LoTG:
(d) Lifting and supporting. Players may assist a team-mate in jumping for the ball by lifting and supporting that player providing that the lifting and/or supporting players do not support the jumping team-mate below the shorts from behind or below the thighs from the front.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line The sanction is different - FK escalated up to PK. A lawyer might ponder whether the variation precludes lifting, as it retains the old wording from before lifting was made legal in the adult game. If he did so ponder, I'm confident he'd conclude that lifting is legal in this age group, and the sanction is the only change.

Ian_Cook
12-09-10, 09:09
In England, there's no possibility whatever of ARs at an U16 game.

What?. No ARs ever at College 1st XV level?

Dixie
12-09-10, 20:09
What?. No ARs ever at College 1st XV level?
Not for a normal game, no. Some national schools cup matches, particularly at the tail end of prestigious competitions, will receive appointed ARs, but not many. In my appointments list this month, I noted that the 1st XV of one of our most effective rugby schools, Wellington College, played London Irish Academy last weekend. They got a damned good L.6 ref (Jeff of this parish), but no ARs.