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spmilligan
17-09-06, 19:09
Hello,
law 19.9 (g) Support before jumping A player must not support a team mate before the team mate has jumped.
and
19.9 (j) Pre-grip below the waist A player must not pre-grip any team mate below the waist
both of which have the same penalty - free kick on the 15 metre line.

My question is, what is the difference, if a player is pre-gripping above the waist, okay by 19.9(j) then surely they are supporting, which is not okay by (g) and are penalised.
So, when is it "pre-grip" and when is it "supporting before jumping":confused:

OB..
17-09-06, 23:09
I’m not sure I can explain it, but I can give you the history. In 2000 the major re-write produced:-
Law 19.9
(j) Support below the waist. A player must not support a jumping team-mate below the waist. PK
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the 15-metre line

The next year this was expanded to:-
(j) Pre-grip below the waist. A player must not pre-grip any team-mate below the waist. FK
Penalty: Free Kick
(k) Support of a player. A player must not support a jumping team-mate below the shorts from behind or below the thighs from the front. PK
Penalty: penalty Kick
(l) Lowering a Player. Players who support a jumping team-mate must lower that player to the ground as soon as the ball has been won by a player of either team. FK
Penalty: Free-Kick

Pre-gripping was not defined until 2001: "gripping a team-mate in the lineout prior to the ball being thrown in". It makes sense: supporting is legal if done properly (inter alia, AFTER the ball has left the thrower’s hands); pre-gripping is illegal.

What I don’t understand is the apparent permission to pre-grip above the waist. Why would anybody need to? Ready to maul?

Deeps
17-09-06, 23:09
As a matter of policy in Hampshire, referees are encouraged not to blow for pre gripping below the waist as it is strongly believed that pre gripping provides a far safer outcome.

In reality no one lifts jumpers nowadays as the support technique has been so well developed over the last few years. A pregrip on a pair of shorts does no harm and actually facilitates a clean and safe supporting evolution. Neither side gains a particular advantage from pregripping if they both do it and, as in Hampshire, you may consider that it is a much safer way of doing it anyway.

It's really not an issue when there are potentially so many other things going on in the lineout.

Simon Griffiths
17-09-06, 23:09
I agree with that policy. We're always being told that safety is most important, and pre-gripping is probably safer. It would also allow us to concentrate on other, more important things which could be dangerous.

OB..
18-09-06, 00:09
This is one of the cases where I not only agree that there is a difference between Us and Them - I also agree with it. Pre-gripping at lower levels* is much safer.



*of play, not pre-gripping.

Number8
18-09-06, 03:09
I agree with SJG and OB in principle: pre-gripping is generally safer.
However, what do you do in a match where one side is more accomplished in the lineout, and doesn't need to pre-grip, while their opponent does just to be competitive (or safe)? Do you allow the less-accomplished team to gain parity through pre-gripping when the other side has a skill advantage?

Simon Thomas
18-09-06, 09:09
I don't know about the USA but over the last 3-4 years in England I have mostly only ever seen pre-gripping (once all the line and disco-dancing is over) - at all levels of men's games (level 6 down) and for Colts / U17 / U16 matches too.

SONA
25-09-06, 15:09
It has been a long time since I have NOT seen some form of pre-gripping in the line out. I know that when I started playing rugby in 1978 in college I was a second row player and no one was helping me jump in the line to get the ball. I wish they had as I would have won more ball.

Mike Whittaker
26-09-06, 09:09
It has been a long time since I have NOT seen some form of pre-gripping in the line out. I know that when I started playing rugby in 1978 in college I was a second row player and no one was helping me jump in the line to get the ball. I wish they had as I would have won more ball.

Unfortunately Sona, the opponents would also have been helped with their jump... :D

Tibbs
26-09-06, 12:09
Also of use to this discussion is that somewhere in the laws (can't tell you excactly I don't have my copy to hand) it says that the shorts count as the waist, so you are allowed to pregrip on the shorts before the throw-in.

Supporting in my book only happens when the jumper has left the ground.

Chris

ExHookah
26-09-06, 14:09
Now what about the defensive approach of having your front jumper stand in the #1 spot, and using your hooker as the front lifter/supporter? How would you rule on that?

In a recent match I had that situation, and had the opposing coaches screaming in my ear. I'll admit that I winged it a little bit, and I told the hooker not to engage the jumper until he had left the ground. Not sure at all if that was an appropriate ruling to be honest.

OB..
26-09-06, 14:09
Following a ruling by the IRB Laws Committee, “pre-gripping” of players who are jumping for the ball is permitted. Experimental Law Variation (ELV) 19.9 (j) states that pre-gripping below the waist is illegal. For practical purposes, the shorts are considered as part of the “waist”.

Not part of the Laws. Taken from an Australian 2001 publication: "Domestic Rugby Game Management Instructions For Match Officials, Coaches and Players"

pending
26-09-06, 14:09
Now what about the defensive approach of having your front jumper stand in the #1 spot, and using your hooker as the front lifter/supporter? How would you rule on that?

In a recent match I had that situation, and had the opposing coaches screaming in my ear. I'll admit that I winged it a little bit, and I told the hooker not to engage the jumper until he had left the ground. Not sure at all if that was an appropriate ruling to be honest.

You did the same thing I've always done. I have no issue with the pregripping, provided it's the players taking part in the line. If a side wants to use the thrower's opposite, to support once the ball is thrown in, I have no issue. I do politely explain to him that he's not to grip until the ball is thrown. I also tell him if the throwing side start moving players backward, and they choose to do the same, that they're to stay on the correct side of the line.

Simon Thomas
26-09-06, 14:09
Hookah
The defensive ploy of hooker standing as front supporter his side of 5m line and #1 jumper just other side has been used for last couple of seasons this side of the Pond and in Southern Hemisphere too.
As long as they don't pre-grip until ball is thrown it is totally legal.

Another example of coaches being deficient in Law knowledge and accepted practice.

ExHookah
26-09-06, 15:09
Thanks Mike and Simon,

Looks like my instinct was correct and in line with what others are doing. I also did instruct the defensive hooker that as well as not gripping before the jump, that he also should be aware that if he crossed the 5M line, then he would be considered part of the numbers in the line.

From an attacking perspective, if your jumper can win the throw, a useful ploy would be to tap it to the throwing hooker who should have a clear channel to attack when his opponent is involved with lifting up his jumper (and is required by law to safely return him to the ground and not dump him in mid air)

didds
27-09-06, 08:09
you will no doubt delighted that as a visiting coach I introduced this exact area for debate at a society refs meeting last season :-)

didds

Deeps
27-09-06, 10:09
Hookah
The defensive ploy of hooker standing as front supporter his side of 5m line and #1 jumper just other side has been used for last couple of seasons...

However, I will point out to the supporter standing within the 5 m that I will be ensuring that the ball does in fact travel the required 5 metres.

didds
27-09-06, 16:09
deeps - probably better warning the jumper at #1 - the lifter/supporter at "hooker" will only follow his jumper.

didds

didds
27-09-06, 16:09
deeps - probably better warning the jumper at #1 - the lifter/supporter at "hooker" will only follow his jumper.

didds

Deeps
27-09-06, 22:09
deeps - probably better warning the jumper at #1 - the lifter/supporter at "hooker" will only follow his jumper.

didds


Don't worry, I am loud enough that the flankers hear it too. My point being that if the supporter standing within the 5m wishes to avoid hassle then why not just join the line out anyway?

didds
28-09-06, 08:09
because to do so removes the advantage of the jumper standing at #1 :-)

didds

Mike Whittaker
28-09-06, 17:09
because to do so removes the advantage of the jumper standing at #1 :-)

didds


...and nearly always taking the ball in the 5 :D

ExHookah
28-09-06, 19:09
Don't worry, I am loud enough that the flankers hear it too. My point being that if the supporter standing within the 5m wishes to avoid hassle then why not just join the line out anyway?

Well tactically they are trying to get their jumper in front of the opposition.

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/captainobvious-30190.jpg

Dixie
31-10-06, 12:10
Now what about the defensive approach of having your front jumper stand in the #1 spot, and using your hooker as the front lifter/supporter? How would you rule on that?

In a recent match I had that situation, and had the opposing coaches screaming in my ear. I'll admit that I winged it a little bit, and I told the hooker not to engage the jumper until he had left the ground. Not sure at all if that was an appropriate ruling to be honest.

At what point does the hooker become just another lineout player? If he's standing in line, pre-gripping the jumper at #1, isn't he actually a lineout player standing in the wrong place? Assuming this is accurate, does it change if he's not pre-gripping? In order to support effectively, he needs to make contact with #1 before #1 catches the ball. Lineout has started, but isn't he really just like a SH entering the lineout and performing any action of a lineout player? Except that the hooker will be standing in the channel - pingable?

Deeps
31-10-06, 12:10
If, at the first lineout, the defending hooker stands inside the 5 m line and looks as if he is about to support the jumper I remind him that he has to wait for the ball to be thrown before taking part in the lineout and if he is in any doubt then he might be safer stepping between the 5 -15.

Also, that if he supports in that position, it in unlikely, in my opinion, that the ball will travel 5 metres before his jumper catches it.

I only need to do it once.

Coler
31-10-06, 13:10
Had a strange one last Saturday - No. 2 jumper was being supported in the ordinary way, but when you looked you noticed that his first action prior was to place both his hands on the supporting player in front and lever himself up of the guys shoulders. Clearly prohibited; on noticing it I had a quiet word to the two of them and advised future incidences would be FK on the 15. The jumper said he can't get me up safely otherwise. Jumper's body position in the support looked a hell of a lot more dangerous to me when levering himself up (head down looking at the supporter's shoulders and liable to tip over in front).

ExHookah
31-10-06, 14:10
Had a strange one last Saturday - No. 2 jumper was being supported in the ordinary way, but when you looked you noticed that his first action prior was to place both his hands on the supporting player in front and lever himself up of the guys shoulders. Clearly prohibited; on noticing it I had a quiet word to the two of them and advised future incidences would be FK on the 15. The jumper said he can't get me up safely otherwise. Jumper's body position in the support looked a hell of a lot more dangerous to me when levering himself up (head down looking at the supporter's shoulders and liable to tip over in front).

Sounds like a problem with the lifters strength or technique there. I feel as though part of the issue is that players watch on TV and see players like Ben Kay soaring up into the air, supported by a grip just above their knees at the front and under the shorts at the back, and getting them 5 or 6 feet off the ground. They then think that they have to duplicate this in their game, which is not realistic.

Don't forget that in the laws it requires the lifters/supporters to safely control their jumper and bring him to ground safely. I think that in a situation like the one you mentioned, where you have safety concerns, you have every right to restrict them from lifting if you don;t think they are capable of doing it in a safe fashion.

Coler
31-10-06, 14:10
absolutely agreed

Dixie
31-10-06, 17:10
you have every right to restrict them from lifting if you don't think they are capable of doing it in a safe fashion.

You have every right to do that even if you do think it's safe. Some would even argue you have that obligation, in the interests of a fair contest for the ball. They would quote Law 19.9(g)

didds
31-10-06, 19:10
Now what about the defensive approach of having your front jumper stand in the #1 spot, and using your hooker as the front lifter/supporter? How would you rule on that?

In a recent match I had that situation, and had the opposing coaches screaming in my ear. I'll admit that I winged it a little bit, and I told the hooker not to engage the jumper until he had left the ground. Not sure at all if that was an appropriate ruling to be honest.


as the guest coach at a society referee's meeting lasy season I introduced thnis area. tHE society chair went away and got a definitive answer - it is allowed. The answer did aslso say that the hooker had to have moved past the 5m mark... iut IMO as a ref you will have too much to look for elsewhere to make this a realistic checking point (including looking for ball not 5m - I can't see how you will see feet poisitions at ground level and a ball at 10 feet simutaneously w/out standing 15m away!!)

didds

didds
31-10-06, 20:10
Hookah
The defensive ploy of hooker standing as front supporter his side of 5m line and #1 jumper just other side has been used for last couple of seasons this side of the Pond and in Southern Hemisphere too.
As long as they don't pre-grip until ball is thrown it is totally legal.

Another example of coaches being deficient in Law knowledge and accepted practice.


Simon - I note that you omit the requirement as given to me by D&W society chair that the hooker position supporter has to move past the 5m line to do this.

I assume you are thus equally deficient in law knowledge and accepted practice? Or the DW society chair (or his advisors anyway) are?

Meanwhile I see your coach with deficiencies in Law knowledge etc and raise you a referee that penalises the throwing team for not ensuring the ball travelled 5m when the opposition front "jumper" intercepted the ball in front of the 5m line.

didds

didds
31-10-06, 20:10
Also, that if he supports in that position, it in unlikely, in my opinion, that the ball will travel 5 metres before his jumper catches it.

I only need to do it once.


But you do watch to see if that is the case don;t you deeps?

didds

didds
31-10-06, 20:10
Looks like my instinct was correct and in line with what others are doing. I also did instruct the defensive hooker that as well as not gripping before the jump, that he also should be aware that if he crossed the 5M line, then he would be considered part of the numbers in the line.



which is interstingly exactly what I was advised SHOULD happen by the DW society chair (or rather by proxy his advisors when he checked). Albeit not until after the ball has been thrown



From an attacking perspective, if your jumper can win the throw, a useful ploy would be to tap it to the throwing hooker who should have a clear channel to attack when his opponent is involved with lifting up his jumper (and is required by law to safely return him to the ground and not dump him in mid air)

which is why I personally wouldn't advocate it except in extreme circumstances. It is also proine to a front peel BUT then again one could slightly overcome the concern by placing one's scrumhalf (or a player in the SH position with the SH as tail gunner) right against the 5m line with a view to stepping into the channel as a defensive player a la non-throwing hooker once the throw is made.

didds
31-10-06, 20:10
In order to support effectively, he needs to make contact with #1 before #1 catches the ball.

but in effect no diufferent from #1/#3 supporting #2 "normally" .

didds

SimonSmith
31-10-06, 21:10
Didds - you're assuming that the D&W Chair was right....

Did he have any law citations? Because I'm not sure that I see anything in law that mandates moving into the 10m channel between the 5 and 15m lines.

In fact (devil's advocate) I'd like to know in law why he has to wait until the ball is in.

The defending hooker is allowed to be in the lineout - he is defined as a participating player. There are no requirements or restrictions placed upon him in law. WHy can't he prebind (assuming all other numbers conditions are met?)

didds
01-11-06, 09:11
ref: DW chair... I think I mentioned that of course maybe his source was wrong elsewhere... but indeed I concur with your point, and I was personally "unhappy" with the interpretation given, but thought it churlish to further the debate seeing he had gone out of his way to follow the debate at the society meeting up. As I said elsewhere I doubt that this alleged interpretation is well known anyway, and am unsure how a ref is likely to be looking at the hooker's feet on the floor when the ball and jumper are several feet above it and there is so much else to watch for.

I did look for the original emnail but I have now deleted it it appears, otherwise I would have been able to verify where the clarification came from.

cheers

didds

didds
01-11-06, 09:11
ref: chair's response. I think I mentioned elsewhere that his response was gleaned from elsewhere wghere he'd gone to ask for clarification. I must say I was "unhappy" with this interpretation also, but felt it churlish to argue seig he'd gone to the trouble of seeking an answer out. As it is I think it would be very unlikely that a ref could be checking feet positions while the ball and jumper (and oppo) are several feet above them.

I don;t have an issue with no pre-binding "within" the channel.

didds

SONA
01-11-06, 16:11
I still can't shake the feeling that the player standing within the 5m line and binding on the #1 jumper is an attempt to circumvent the law and gain an undue advantage from a grey area of law. I understand the arguments for and against. I just don't like it.

Participating players are not all "lineout players who form the two lines that make a lineout"

Jacko
01-11-06, 16:11
I just don't like it.

I don't like 9 am lectures on Mondays. I don't like the fact that a man who brings a player to ground but stays on his feet isn't a tackler and therefore has to come through the gate. I don't like drizzle.

Ain't life a bitch.

SONA
01-11-06, 17:11
I don't like 9 am lectures on Mondays. I don't like the fact that a man who brings a player to ground but stays on his feet isn't a tackler and therefore has to come through the gate. I don't like drizzle.

Ain't life a bitch.
No, I don't find life a bitch, but ok.

Mike Whittaker
01-11-06, 17:11
No, I don't find life a bitch, but ok.

Better than having a bitch for life.. :D

SONA
01-11-06, 17:11
Better than having a bitch for life.. :D
Damm tootin'! But I hear that it is cheaper to hang on to her and put up with the bitch than to divorce her and be poor for the next 20 years. :)

SimonSmith
01-11-06, 17:11
I'll let you know how that pans out for me!

Simon Thomas
02-11-06, 10:11
Didds

Usually Robin and I are in perfect unison - but perhaps on this technicality we differ. I will seek advice from the highest authority.

I have never seen anything that says that a supporting defensive hooker (who hasn't pre-bound and so is legally in 5m tramlines) must step over the 5m to 'particpate in the line-out' when he supports once the ball is thrown. My view is that as long as the ball is caught / touched / deflected at 5.1m I am happy. If at 4.9m I need to take appropriate action.

This technique is used at all levels of the Game in 'Euroland' and Southern Hemisphere.

beckett50
02-11-06, 11:11
Simon,

You are correct in your assessment.

The defending hooker can support from within the 5m channel, but he CANNOT touch the jumper until the ball has gone over his head.

Sort of negates the whole idea of the #1 jumper really. It is a tactic that still seems prevalant at the lower levels, but is dying out further up.

If you suspect it is happening stand at the back and watch for when the hooker makes contact with his jumper. Guarantee that the first PK will stop the practise for the rest of the game (unless he has brain fade at some point)

Deeps
02-11-06, 12:11
I still can't shake the feeling that the player standing within the 5m line and binding on the #1 jumper is an attempt to circumvent the law and gain an undue advantage from a grey area of law.

So you make your presence felt at the first lineout as I have described above. Set out your stall.

'You are not going to support the jumper until the ball has been thrown are you?'

'Do you think the ball is going to travel 5 metres if you support from there?'

didds
02-11-06, 13:11
Didds

Usually Robin and I are in perfect unison - but perhaps on this technicality we differ. I will seek advice from the highest authority.


I found the email :-)

I notice now that the bit about stepping past the 5m line wasn't confirmed...


didds

--

Gentlemen,

It has taken some time, but here is the answer to the topic of the non-throwing hooker supporting at the front of the lineout.

Many thanks to you both for generating this query. I will put a bit in the WB next month.

XXXXX

----- Original Message -----
From: XXXXX
To: XXXXX
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: LINEOUT LAW QUERY


XXXXXXX

Sorry for late reply. Think you have it just right and I have no issues with the non-throwing hooker (or opponent of player throwing in) supporting at the front of the line-out. He should not pre-grip but can take part as soon as the ball has left the hand of the thrower. Good scheme as it gives him something to think about and do rather than becoming a nuisance!!

And a Happy Christmas to you too!!

Regards

XXXXXXX

"BETTER OFFICIALS, BETTER GAME..."






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXXXXXXX
Sent: 09 December 2005 12:07
To: XXXXXXXX
Subject: LINEOUT LAW QUERY


Dear XXXXXX,

I would be grateful for the DS view on the following. It generated some discussion last night at a training meeting, and referees were polarised.

Red are to throw into the lineout. Blue hooker takes up a normal onside position in the 5m channel. Just after the ball leaves the Red thrower's hands, Blue hooker joins the lineout to support the Blue player at the front of the lineout.

Q1. Is this allowed? I believe YES, Law 19.14 refers.

Q2. If it is allowed, when the Blue hooker supports his own player, must his feet be at least 5m from touch, beyond the 5m line?

I believe his feet must be more that 5m from touch, since he is now part of the lineout, which must be more than 5m from touch, Law 19.7h refers.

Any ideas/rulings? Many thanks, and a Happy Christmas,

didds
02-11-06, 13:11
The defending hooker can support from within the 5m channel, but he CANNOT touch the jumper until the ball has gone over his head.



what;s the reasoning for over his head?

Left the hooker's hand surely?

didds

Deeps
02-11-06, 15:11
Either way, I really do find it difficult to believe that the hooker standing within the 5 meters can support and keep within the law. The jumper must be more than half way up before the ball has left the throwers hand.

I accept that it is useful for the hooker to be employed rather than available to be a nuisance but why split hairs with the law; let's keep it simple?

Davet
02-11-06, 16:11
The jumper must be more than half way up before the ball has left the throwers hand

Although since he is not allowed to jump before the ball is thrown then that is of itself illegal...

Mike Whittaker
02-11-06, 17:11
Either way, I really do find it difficult to believe that the hooker standing within the 5 meters can support and keep within the law. The jumper must be more than half way up before the ball has left the throwers hand.



But if the jumpers feet only have to rise 1m off the ground at the front of the line out and the ball has had to travel 5m to get to him, he only has to move up at one fifth the speed of the ball to meet it on the way through... ?? And the 'helper' will latch on the moment his feet do leave the ground.

Mind you that is just the theory, in practice you are right and they all grip and jump early.

Deeps
02-11-06, 17:11
It needs one of those excellent ARU videos to demonstrate the point yet from a practical viewpoint the thrower is not going to throw until he sees the jumper at 2 in the air. Then, the jumper is not going anywhere without his front supporter.

SONA
03-11-06, 02:11
So you make your presence felt at the first lineout as I have described above. Set out your stall.

'You are not going to support the jumper until the ball has been thrown are you?'

'Do you think the ball is going to travel 5 metres if you support from there?'
So what is the penalty? Numbers? Jumping or supporting before the ball is thrown?

Mike Whittaker
03-11-06, 08:11
So what is the penalty? Numbers? Jumping or supporting before the ball is thrown?

When Deeps has made his 'presence felt', there is no infringement and hence no penalty... :rolleyes:

beckett50
03-11-06, 09:11
PK, because the Hooker is technically off-side

didds
03-11-06, 10:11
so - should I now coach based on what I have been told via my society - ot via you cvhaps' interpretations?

And now what happens if 9say) a Hampshire ref cpomes on a swap to D&W - what interpretation might we expect?

We could ask beforehand of copurse - but then again we have had one interpretation for several weeks by now...

;-)

didds

Deeps
03-11-06, 10:11
You give yourself an extra man at the front who is not included in the numbers count but it was always thus. Now you want him to perform all the duties of a lineout player without being one and then from an offside position?

What's more, you are hoping that referees will ignore the offside law, laws concerning the distance the ball has to travel and supporting before the ball is thrown!! How about we just chuck the Laws of the game away to make life that little bit easier for you hard pressed coaches?

Are coaches really unable to coach better technical skills so that they have to resort to cheating; is there not enough scope in the game already? I have little time for it, which is why I express my view early in the game.

SimonSmith
03-11-06, 13:11
I don't believe that you have an extra man.
The law defines the participanst of a line out, and the defending hooker is specifcally called out as the throwers opponent. I therefore count him immediately as being cancelled out by the thrower.

I've enjoyed the discussion, and admit up front that I tell the hooker to wait until ball's omn its way before binding.
Having read the thread - can someone help me by citing the justification in law?

SimonSmith
03-11-06, 13:11
And now what happens if 9say) a Hampshire ref cpomes on a swap to D&W - what interpretation might we expect?

We could ask beforehand of copurse - but then again we have had one interpretation for several weeks by now...

;-)

didds

I'm sure that your guys are so well coached that they can adapt to the referee's quirks on the day! ;)

Deeps
03-11-06, 13:11
Simon, I agree he is not supposed to be an extra player in that he is defined as a participating player (the same as the thrower) however, the use of this 'participating player' is as a 'lineout player'. Lineout players are counted and affect 'numbers', so our participant becomes an extra, yet uncounted, lineout player if he can get away with it.

We chaps have to ensure that this pushing of the envelope is met with precise adherence to relevant law (for a change) or we should not allow it. I prefer to counsel the participating player to remain within relevant law to prevent him from infringing.

I suppose the counter to this would be the short throw to the front to allow number 1 to charge up the line while his opponent still has a handfull of nuts and bolts!

Simon Thomas
03-11-06, 14:11
Gents

To cut out a lot of debate for the Hampshire refs on here, I suggest you forget the theoretical stuff about law and hairsplitting interpretations, and concentrate on the whole line-out, not this one minor element.

I have discussed with the 'highest authority' (who is sender of email to Chairman of D&W - the strapline "BETTER OFFICIALS, BETTER GAME..." is a bit of a give-away !) and HRURS should follow D&W (and many other Societies, Group, Panel, etc) interpretations - which is what I was doing already anyway.

Hooker at front of line and onside - OK

Hooker pre-binds before ball thrown - NO; Hooker pre-binds after ball thrown-OK
In the real world and with pods that train it will be a smooth process and I am really not worried about the split seconds as the ball is being thrown.

Note as the ball is thrown, NOT as it passes over his head !

Whether he steps into 5m + zone or not is not usually an issue at our levels 6/7 and downwards.

Advice is to manage the line-out effectively, don't get hung up on such fine detail and get on with the flow of the match. If it is material ping it, if not get on with the match.

At the end of the day gents shouldn't we work with player emphathy rather than as law policemen ?

tim White
03-11-06, 14:11
At the end of the day gents shouldn't we work with player emphathy rather than as law policemen ?

And I thought you were trying to conclude this discussion!;)

SimonSmith
03-11-06, 14:11
Simon - as I said, I do apply the practical "on the ground" application here. We're getting into the rugby equivalent of the ecclesiastical debates about how many angels could fit on the head of a pin. However, I do love a law debate....

So checking the law:
"Lineout players. Lineout players are the players who form the two
lines that make a lineout.
Players taking part in the lineout known as participating
players. Players taking part in the lineout are the player who throwsin
and an immediate opponent, the two players waiting to receive the
ball from the lineout and the lineout players.
Maximum. The team throwing in the ball decides the maximum
number of players in the lineout.
Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
19.7.(c) The opposing team may have fewer lineout players but they must
not have more.
Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Where the lineout players must stand. The front of the
lineout is not less than 5 metres from the touchline. The back of
the lineout is not more than 15 metres from the touchline. All
lineout players must stand between these two points.

Questions that arise: by binding, does the DH become a lineout player? Because if he does, he must move to the 5m line or beyond. He would then also create a numbers issue as he has become a l/out player, and NOT the thrower's opposing player.

In short, I think that the current law interpretation is a fudge that needs a Ruling. It isn't a situation catered for in law, and we're making stuff up. Admittedly, it's a good and fair solution, but I'm always happier being able to rely upon law rather than "because HQ told us so" in a debate with a coach!

Deeps
03-11-06, 17:11
Simon (S). Exactly. What on earth is the problem with containing lineout players within the 5 - 15 marks; it is proscribed as where they should stand. I am not concerned if the front man inadvertentently steps over the 5 but don't pretend not to be a lineout player only to act as one and then get upset if I call numbers.