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Stuartg
25-09-10, 18:09
I've just reffed a school 1st XV match and got it in the ear from one coach because I penalised his side for having too many in a line-out. The point he made was that from this season the 'new laws' (sic) say that I'm supposed to ask how many a side are putting in or else the side putting in has to declare the number.

Has anyone seen such a directive at any level. I realise that asking is a means of managing the lineout put I do not believe (unless corrected) that it is obligatory.

Over to you.

Davet
25-09-10, 20:09
Coach is wrong.

a) there are no "new Laws", as you are clearly aware.
b) there is no obligation for you ask how many, nor for hem to tell you.

As you say it is good managment to get the throwing side to declare numbers to you, and simply call that (having ensured they aren't pulling a fast one) - but it is not obligatory - and indeed many respected refs may feel that this over spoonfeeds players.

Rit Hinners
25-09-10, 20:09
Matching numbers in a lineout is as simple as it gets.

You go up to the line and stand next to an opponent. If there is no one to stand next to, you leave. Even the densest forward I have ever met was able to count to ZERO.

Players need to take responsibility for their own action, or inaction. The ref is not there to lead them around by their hands.

chbg
25-09-10, 21:09
I've just reffed a school 1st XV match and got it in the ear from one coach because I penalised his side for having too many in a line-out. The point he made was that from this season the 'new laws' (sic) say that I'm supposed to ask how many a side are putting in or else the side putting in has to declare the number.

Has anyone seen such a directive at any level. I realise that asking is a means of managing the lineout put I do not believe (unless corrected) that it is obligatory.

Over to you.

Why did you "get it in the ear" and why did you put up with it? :rc: An adult discussion in the tea-room afterwards is acceptable. Ask him pleasantly to show you the "new Law" in his LoG Book, and why is your copy not in your sports bag?

OB..
25-09-10, 23:09
Matching numbers in a lineout is as simple as it gets.

You go up to the line and stand next to an opponent. If there is no one to stand next to, you leave. Even the densest forward I have ever met was able to count to ZERO.

Players need to take responsibility for their own action, or inaction. The ref is not there to lead them around by their hands.

Defenders line up while opponents have a quick huddle, then 5 come into the line all at once, the others drop back and the ball is thrown in before the defenders have a chance to react. Law 19.8 (e) ensures the defenders do not get penalised for numbers, but their defence is misaligned.

These days I rarely see a referee who does not manage it (well or badly!).

Rit Hinners
26-09-10, 03:09
Defenders line up while opponents have a quick huddle, then 5 come into the line all at once, the others drop back and the ball is thrown in before the defenders have a chance to react. Law 19.8 (e) ensures the defenders do not get penalised for numbers, but their defence is misaligned.

These days I rarely see a referee who does not manage it (well or badly!).

I tried this in the very early 90s.... The refs would not allow it at all. We didn't even hurry up the defense. We just wanted to be sure of our numbers and the call before we approached the line.

What I am saying is that yes, the ref should manage it so that the defense has time to react. However the ref should not count for the defense and inform them of their stupidity. He need only give them time to realize the error of their ways. If, given a few seconds they do not rectify their numbers, it's too bad.

Enrique
26-09-10, 03:09
I usually call "Blue, check the number" (of men in the lineout) once, especially in junior games. Yes, the defending team should be able to count; but that little sentence helps continuity.

Taff
26-09-10, 12:09
Perhaps I'm wired wrongly, but no matter where I stand I just can't seem to get these numbers with any degree of confidence and in the time I've got. And I do try it out regularly when TJing. :(

Some players will stand upright, others will bend over with their hands on their knees which makes it difficult to count how many are in the line. By the time I've managed to check one side, I then try to do the same with the other side - the same problems crop up here, and by the time I've counted those the ball is usually well out of the lineout anyway. :o

OB..
26-09-10, 12:09
Rit - we all know that given half a chance teams will try to fool the opponents on numbers so as to claim a Free Kick. It is not something I am enamoured of, and I am perfectly happy for the referee to ask about numbers.

Phil E
26-09-10, 13:09
Perhaps I'm wired wrongly, but no matter where I stand I just can't seem to get these numbers with any degree of confidence and in the time I've got. And I do try it out regularly when TJing. :(

Some players will stand upright, others will bend over with their hands on their knees which makes it difficult to count how many are in the line. By the time I've managed to check one side, I then try to do the same with the other side - the same problems crop up here, and by the time I've counted those the ball is usually well out of the lineout anyway. :o

Taff, Look at the pods.

In a standard lineout there will "usually" be a front pod of 3 (jumper and two lifters) and a back pod of 3 and a tail gunner at the back near the 15m line.

Just look at the pods and count 3, 3, 1, then the same the other side.

You can also not bother counting, just pair up players or pods from each side.
So look at both lines at once and count (in our example above) 3 and 3, 3 and 3, 1 and 1. This version is just matching patterns.

In shorter lineouts employ the same technique.

Rit Hinners
26-09-10, 13:09
Rit - we all know that given half a chance teams will try to fool the opponents on numbers so as to claim a Free Kick. It is not something I am enamoured of, and I am perfectly happy for the referee to ask about numbers.

Of course teams will try to fool opponents. Isn't that what team sports are all about?

I just don't see how anyone would believe that part of the ref's job is to ensure that they fail.

Isn't it the responsibility of each player to know how to play and to be aware of what is going on around them? If the ref is constantly leading players around by their hands to ensure that they don't infringe due to their own ignorance what motivation do they have to actually LEARN the game they are playing?

Give them a fish or teach them to fish.

Davet
26-09-10, 14:09
Rit, I don't disagree, and would not advocate refs telling one side to reduce numbers, but have no probem with the ref calling out the number in the line - the non-throwers can act on that as they see fit and be pinged if they fail to react.

Like OB I'm not enthralled by the idea that one side can con the other into infringing - a bit like the old habit of 9s dummying from the base to tempt the offside, a practice now outlawed.

But in terms of numbers, if it's clear and the nin-thriwers dont act on then fair cop.

OB..
26-09-10, 16:09
Trying to fool players into committing an offence is not a part of the game I wish to encourage.

Davet
26-09-10, 16:09
Trying to fool players into committing an offence is not a part of the game I wish to encourage.

Indeed such behaviour would probably fall well within the traditional concept of unsporting behaviour

ctrainor
26-09-10, 20:09
I never tell people how many are in the line nor ask.
If the attacking team are fannying around I'll just call no numbers but If I can see and count so should the opposition.

OB..
26-09-10, 20:09
I never tell people how many are in the line nor ask.
If the attacking team are fannying around I'll just call no numbers but If I can see and count so should the opposition.

How often do you award a FK for numbers?

Davet
26-09-10, 23:09
If the attacking team are fannying around I'll just call no numbers


So you allow the throwing side to fanny around and put their opponents at a numerical disadvantge in the backs by doing so?

The Law demands that they be allowed time to remove players from the line, not that you simply ignore numbers when the throwers "fanny around", that is only a partial solution and encourages fannying around - they know they will either get the FK for numbers or get an overlap out wide.

The Fat
27-09-10, 00:09
How hard can it be for a referee to simply say to the non-throwing team, "Check your numbers red", as the lineout is forming? If they have too many in there and don't drop players out, then FK.
As Davet pointed out, the Laws allow time for the non-throwing team to adjust their numbers.
If the throwing team is "fannying around" to attempt to fool the opposition, my call is "Not yet thrower. Red, numbers please".
It's not that hard.

Deeps
27-09-10, 00:09
How hard can it be for a referee to simply say to the non-throwing team, "Check your numbers red", as the lineout is forming? If they have too many in there and don't drop players out, then FK.

There are more subtle ways of doing it that's why. The business of numbers has become a major penalty chaser where it is only meant to ensure that the line out is played fairly by the same number of players on each side. Instead, it is played far more vigorously than the line out itself. Any side attempting to cheat a free kick by not giving the opposition time to react and then calling out numbers has the free kick awarded against them for contriving an offence.

I detest the 'number's ref' call and play advantage. If the non offending side win the ball then 'advantage over'.

It amuses me when sometimes before the line out starts when the side throwing in point out a numbers issue hence allowing the opposition to correct it.

SimonSmith
27-09-10, 01:09
It is manageable.

Ask the non throwing hooker to check the numbers. If he can't count, that ain't my problem!

FlipFlop
27-09-10, 10:09
I've just reffed a school 1st XV match and got it in the ear from one coach because I penalised his side for having too many in a line-out. The point he made was that from this season the 'new laws' (sic) say that I'm supposed to ask how many a side are putting in or else the side putting in has to declare the number.


To which I hope you pointed out that if his players, at that age, can't count, then perhaps they should be having extra lessons rather than spending time on the rugby field :D

Dixie
27-09-10, 10:09
I detest the 'number's ref' call and play advantage. If the non offending side win the ball then 'advantage over'. If the Red scrum leader asks you to look out for the opposition #3 pulling the scrum down from a bind on the arm, do you play advantage to Blue? While I absolutely agree that obfuscating the numbers coming into the line in order to draw a FK is unacceptable, I think we must recognise that a defensive lineout containing too many players through incompetence warrants a FK. If I get a little polite help in spotting it, I don't see that as foul play.

Taff
27-09-10, 11:09
.. I think we must recognise that a defensive lineout containing too many players through incompetence warrants a FK.I think Deeps' point is that if the non-offending side win the ball they automatically have an advantage by having extra numbers in the backs ie the offending side have tied up at least 1 player in the lineout unecessarily.

OB..
27-09-10, 12:09
If I get a little polite help in spotting it, I don't see that as foul play.
No, but it is worth telling them not to do it again.

Simon Thomas
27-09-10, 16:09
I've just reffed a school 1st XV match and got it in the ear from one coach because I penalised his side for having too many in a line-out. The point he made was that from this season the 'new laws' (sic) say that I'm supposed to ask how many a side are putting in or else the side putting in has to declare the number.

Has anyone seen such a directive at any level. I realise that asking is a means of managing the lineout put I do not believe (unless corrected) that it is obligatory.

Over to you.

There is no such directive from IRB or RFU - the coach is talking drivel.

The referee has no duty whatsoever to ask line-out numbers if not declared by the throwing side. In assessing the refs management, I would be concerned if he was calling numbers - plenty of ways to handle it as listed above by my colleagues.

Tryer
27-09-10, 17:09
So what should teams be doing?? ...... when I were a lad we just had to count or look for opposite number...... on a thread sometime ago I stated the team I coach tell the ref how many as they approach the LO, actually the hooker does. Quite often the ref relays this to the opposition. Should we be keeping quiet or not??

Dixie
27-09-10, 20:09
So what should teams be doing?? ...... when I were a lad we just had to count or look for opposite number...... on a thread sometime ago I stated the team I coach tell the ref how many as they approach the LO, actually the hooker does. Quite often the ref relays this to the opposition. Should we be keeping quiet or not??
I tell my lot to keep their own counsel unless ordered by the ref to disclose their numbers.