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Stuartg
26-09-10, 18:09
I can't find a reference to the following. A player kicks the ball to touch. The ball crosses the plane of the touch line and then is blown back into play. Play on or line out. I think from the definition of touch that the answer is play on.

Can anyone confirm?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
26-09-10, 18:09
Play on.

I had a touch of wind this morning as well.

OB..
26-09-10, 18:09
From the Law 19 Definitions:

The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anyone or anything on or beyond the touchline.
It didn't so it wasn't.

Play on.

Dixie
26-09-10, 18:09
I can't find a reference to the following. A player kicks the ball to touch. The ball crosses the plane of the touch line and then is blown back into play. Play on or line out. I think from the definition of touch that the answer is play on.

Can anyone confirm?Stuart, you are correct. There is no overt reference to this precise situation in the laws, but plenty of evidence. As well as what has already been quoted, we can see this from the definitions:
If the ball crosses the touchline or touch-in-goal line, and is caught by a player who has both feet in the playing area, the ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal. If it's not in touch when being itself touched to bring it back infield, it's certainly not in touch when bringing itself back infield.

Donaldo01
26-09-10, 20:09
Stuart, you are correct. There is no overt reference to this precise situation in the laws, but plenty of evidence. As well as what has already been quoted, we can see this from the definitions: If it's not in touch when being itself touched to bring it back infield, it's certainly not in touch when bringing itself back infield.

A miracle of modern science ... the self-propelled rugby ball (my emphasis).

Phil E
26-09-10, 20:09
It is specifically mentioned in the touch judge course.

Play on.

Dixie
27-09-10, 09:09
A miracle of modern science ... the self-propelled rugby ball (my emphasis).Donaldo01 - no idea what position you played, but any member of the back three will confirm that a torpedo kick off the right foot will hook significantly do the action of the spin, while one off the left will slice. For this reason, and because of the hand-off from the stronger hand, when I coach a side I use a left footed player on the right wing and a right footed player on the left wing whenever possible.

OB..
27-09-10, 11:09
Donaldo01 - no idea what position you played, but any member of the back three will confirm that a torpedo kick off the right foot will hook significantly do the action of the spin, while one off the left will slice. For this reason, and because of the hand-off from the stronger hand, when I coach a side I use a left footed player on the right wing and a right footed player on the left wing whenever possible.

As a right-footed player, I preferred the right wing because:
(1) I could cross-kick more accurately;
(2) I could give the ball a curve to the right and thus get a better touch finder from a narrow angle.

(This was mainly theory, since I never could kick very well.)

Dickie E
27-09-10, 11:09
I can't find a reference to the following. A player kicks the ball to touch. The ball crosses the plane of the touch line and then is blown back into play. Play on or line out. I think from the definition of touch that the answer is play on.

Can anyone confirm?

As others have said - play on.

Many years ago it used to be the case that ball crossing plane of touch was in touch.

OB..
27-09-10, 12:09
As others have said - play on.

Many years ago it used to be the case that ball crossing plane of touch was in touch.

The law was changed in 1978.

kielikili
27-09-10, 12:09
What is the scenario when the ball strikes an object which intrudes on the field of play (a tree or a power line etc) and but for striking that object would (most likely) have gone out?

This may sound a little contrived but there is new pitch near me where there are high tension powerlines running in front of the goal posts at one end (used to be a hockey pitch, probably not much of an issue for them).

Similarly, if a ball is kicked up in the middle of the pitch and strikes a power line, is it play on (presuming the ball is still in one piece!) or is it a line-out?

All the best,
Kili

Dixie
27-09-10, 12:09
As a right-footed player, I preferred the right wing because:
(1) I could cross-kick more accurately;
(2) I could give the ball a curve to the right and thus get a better touch finder from a narrow angle.

(This was mainly theory, since I never could kick very well.) Perhaps a specialist kicker could help us out here. My kicking experience tells me the ball will bend left from the right footed kick.

OB..
27-09-10, 12:09
kielikill - it happened in a televised game when the ball hit an overhead camera.

If you come across a pitch with such a problem, ask the home club what they usually do. Such an obstruction will interfere with play anyway so you may have to restart with a scrum to the team in possession. Strictly speaking the branches of an overhanging tree are in touch.

PaulDG
27-09-10, 12:09
What is the scenario when the ball strikes an object which intrudes on the field of play (a tree or a power line etc) and but for striking that object would (most likely) have gone out?

In RFU-land, there's no doubt about this. It's "touch" (and if it would have gone out or not is not in question - touching an object that is "rooted" in touch is touch.)


Similarly, if a ball is kicked up in the middle of the pitch and strikes a power line, is it play on (presuming the ball is still in one piece!) or is it a line-out?

In England, it's a line out. The ball was in touch.

In the International OB refers to well:

1. It was in France so who knows?
2. No one is sure the match officials saw the ball hit the camera as none of them would have been looking for it. It's possible it should have been "touch", as it would have been in England, but there has never been any official comment.

Dixie
27-09-10, 13:09
In RFU-land, there's no doubt about this. It's "touch" (and if it would have gone out or not is not in question - touching an object that is "rooted" in touch is touch.) Paul - not picking on you today - honest:biggrin: . Chippenham RFC have power lines that run up and down the pitch - so rooted not in touch, but beyond the Dead Ball Line. I'd have a hard time calling that a lineout - it probably leads to the more equitable scrum option to the non-kicking side at the place of the kick, or else a 22m. Of course, if it hits inside the kicker's own half, perhaps it's an attacking srum 5!

Simon Thomas
27-09-10, 14:09
Perhaps a specialist kicker could help us out here. My kicking experience tells me the ball will bend left from the right footed kick.

Yes traditional spiral kick will bend left from a right-footed kicker. But you can get a reverse right bend on the ball by using a flatter instep kick. I used to be able to do it but cannot explain the dynamics of how I did it - just a natural thing !

Simon Thomas
27-09-10, 14:09
What is the scenario when the ball strikes an object which intrudes on the field of play (a tree or a power line etc) and but for striking that object would (most likely) have gone out?

This may sound a little contrived but there is new pitch near me where there are high tension powerlines running in front of the goal posts at one end (used to be a hockey pitch, probably not much of an issue for them).

Similarly, if a ball is kicked up in the middle of the pitch and strikes a power line, is it play on (presuming the ball is still in one piece!) or is it a line-out?

All the best,
Kili

We have two pitches in Hampshire with overhanging trees' branches - Fordingbridge 1st and Gosport 2nd XV pitch. Ball is deemed as in touch if it strikes them (was local rule already). And before anyone suggests it - no they can't be cut back as these are local council recreation grounds and the trees are protected. You need planning premission to prune them.

As for high tension power lines running across a pitch - I think Health & Safety in England might have some issues with that ! How high are they up in the air ?

Enrique
27-09-10, 16:09
The same general criteria are applied here: if something is "rooted" in touch, any part of it is in touch. I remember at least a couple of pitches with overhanging branches.


As for high tension power lines running across a pitch - I think Health & Safety in England might have some issues with that ! How high are they up in the air ?

Same here. VHT and HT power lines must have a clearance of 30m on each side. Protection networks must be installed when the power lines go across a road. Mid and low tension lines have less stringent rules; however, they canīt run over, inter alia, sports fields, school yards, etc.

ckuxmann
27-09-10, 16:09
The mechanics of kicking a spiral all have to do with how the ball is kicked off the foot, for a right bend for a right kicker you want to kick with your foot coming across the body, and to get left spin you need to kick off the inside of your foot while moving it away (left to right).

chopper15
27-09-10, 16:09
Can someone remind me, please, and tell kielikili if there's to be a line-out when the the ball goes over the touch-line and an enthusiastic supporter jumps in the air and knocks the ball back into the FoP? :D

Dixie
27-09-10, 16:09
As for high tension power lines running across a pitch - I think Health & Safety in England might have some issues with that ! How high are they up in the air ?Chippenham RFC has truncated posts that extend a few metres above the crossbar, to reduce the risk of arcing. These are standard pylons - no idea how high. In the same way as birds can safely sit on them, the ball can safely hit them.

OB..
27-09-10, 16:09
Can someone remind me, please, and tell kielikili if there's to be a line-out when the the ball goes over the touch-line and an enthusiastic supporter jumps in the air and knocks the ball back into the FoP? :D

Ask yourself if the spectator is in touch.

Casey Bee
27-09-10, 16:09
Perhaps a specialist kicker could help us out here. My kicking experience tells me the ball will bend left from the right footed kick.

Depends on what position the ball is held, released and therefore meets boot, which part of the foot/boot you kick with and motion of leg swing. Plenty of variables which create different flight patterns.

chopper15
27-09-10, 22:09
Ask yourself if the spectator is in touch.

He wasn't in contact with touch when he knocked the ball back.:hap:

OB..
27-09-10, 23:09
He wasn't in contact with touch when he knocked the ball back.:hap:
Answer the question.

The Fat
28-09-10, 00:09
Can someone remind me, please, and tell kielikili if there's to be a line-out when the the ball goes over the touch-line and an enthusiastic supporter jumps in the air and knocks the ball back into the FoP? :D

OK.
Line-out.

Drift
28-09-10, 03:09
Play on.
I ballsed one of those up in the First grade final a couple of weeks ago as I didn't think it through and I just wanted to get into the game.

OB..
28-09-10, 09:09
Play on.
I ballsed one of those up in the First grade final a couple of weeks ago as I didn't think it through and I just wanted to get into the game.

You are referring to the original question, and not chopper's rider?

chopper15
28-09-10, 11:09
Answer the question.

He was before and he was after . . . but not in touch when he knocked the ball back . . . and this can happen, so I'm curious. :hap:

I forget what the answer was when we discussed this before, but would a player jumping in touch catching a ball dropping in touch and landing in the FoP suggest an answer?

ie., spectator not in touch but falling back into touch would make it a line-out?

The Fat
28-09-10, 12:09
He was before and he was after . . . but not in touch when he knocked the ball back . . . and this can happen, so I'm curious. :hap:

I forget what the answer was when we discussed this before, but would a player jumping in touch catching a ball dropping in touch and landing in the FoP suggest an answer?

ie., spectator not in touch but falling back into touch would make it a line-out?

I want to know what all these bloody spectators are doing on the pitch:biggrin:
Even in juniors down here, we try to maintain a 5 metre space between touchline and spectators

PaulDG
28-09-10, 12:09
I want to know what all these bloody spectators are doing on the pitch:biggrin:
Even in juniors down here, we try to maintain a 5 metre space between touchline and spectators

At some clubs, it's easy to do this, at others it's not. Depends on the grounds.

OB..
28-09-10, 12:09
He was before and he was after . . . but not in touch when he knocked the ball back
If he wasn't in touch, where was he? He certainly was not in the field of play, which is the only alternative as far as Law 19 is concerned.

Get real.

The Fat
28-09-10, 13:09
If he wasn't in touch, where was he? He certainly was not in the field of play, which is the only alternative as far as Law 19 is concerned.

Get real.

By Chopper's definition a player who jumps to catch a high ball;
IS in the FoP, ISN"T in the FoP, IS in the FoP.
Or to take that another step further, a player who is running;
IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T,:eek:

chopper15
28-09-10, 16:09
I want to know what all these bloody spectators are doing on the pitch:biggrin:
Even in juniors down here, we try to maintain a 5 metre space between touchline and spectators

Sorry. Spectator back on the terrace jumps and knocks the ball back into FoP . . then falls back to the ground which is in touch.

What's your opinion on the two egs, TF?

chopper15
28-09-10, 16:09
If he wasn't in touch, where was he? He certainly was not in the field of play, which is the only alternative as far as Law 19 is concerned.

Get real.

'In touch' is all about being in 'contact' with 'touch', OB. Is that not real enough, you ol' sourpuss? :hap:

chopper15
28-09-10, 16:09
By Chopper's definition a player who jumps to catch a high ball;
IS in the FoP, ISN"T in the FoP, IS in the FoP.
Or to take that another step further, a player who is running;
IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T, IS, ISN'T,:eek:

A player who jumps in the FoP, catches the ball in the FoP and lands in touch . . . is in touch. 'Mark' the exception.:hap:

A player who jumps in touch, catches the ball in touch and lands in the FoP . . play on? :sad:

Davet
28-09-10, 17:09
Chopper - all good fun - but frankly any ref who didn't give the line out would mocked unbearably for being the modern equivalent of the wisest fool in Christendom.

All technical reasoning and no common sense whatsoever.

Which brings us to the crux of many of your posts. You seem to feel that the letter of the law is all that matters.

It isn't so.

Now that makes things tricky at times, but we, and you, simply have to live with the difficulties.

Enjoy:)

chopper15
28-09-10, 20:09
Chopper - all good fun - but frankly any ref who didn't give the line out would mocked unbearably for being the modern equivalent of the wisest fool in Christendom.

All technical reasoning and no common sense whatsoever.

Which brings us to the crux of many of your posts. You seem to feel that the letter of the law is all that matters.

It isn't so.

Now that makes things tricky at times, but we, and you, simply have to live with the difficulties.

Enjoy:)




I sometimes think, Davet, that the law lords 'intent' is not interpreted by refs as they would've wanted . . . hence the many arguments and SH/NH disagreements without even trying to resolve them thro' the IRB.

And why over the years haven't 'obvious' interpretation of the way you want the more ambiguous, contradictory and often 'mangled laws to work been put down in writing for useful reference by probationary refs, coaches and players and even, dare I say, for us ignorant punters who love the beautiful game as much as you lot apparently do.

. . it would help quieten me down if nothing else.:Looser:

PS Isn't my query interpretted differently down-under, Davet?

didds
28-09-10, 23:09
Chippenham RFC has truncated posts that extend a few metres above the crossbar, to reduce the risk of arcing.

Y'know Dixie... I've played on that pitch with the truncated posts a few times and I never EVER clocked the pylon wires!! I'll have a gander next time I drive past there!

didds

Drift
29-09-10, 03:09
You are referring to the original question, and not chopper's rider?

Yeah, original question is play on. Chopper's question is a line out

David J.
29-09-10, 04:09
I read here a few months ago about the idea that a player is in touch until they are not, and not in touch until they are. (A player jumping across the line from the FOP can play the ball back regardless of where he lands and where the ball is in relation to the plane of touch.)

That STILL makes a lot of sense to me, and would apply to spectators too.

The Fat
29-09-10, 04:09
I read here a few months ago about the idea that a player is in touch until they are not, and not in touch until they are. (A player jumping across the line from the FOP can play the ball back regardless of where he lands and where the ball is in relation to the plane of touch.)

That STILL makes a lot of sense to me, and would apply to spectators too.

If a player jumps from the FoP across the touchline to knock the ball back in and the ball has already crossed the plane of touch, the ball is in touch.

As to spectators, it doesn't matter if they are sitting, standing or jumping in the air. In relation to the FoP they are beyond the touch line. Therefore if a spectator standing 1m outside the field of play jumps in the air and knocks the ball back into the FoP, the ball is in touch and it is a lineout.

The Fat
29-09-10, 04:09
Sorry. Spectator back on the terrace jumps and knocks the ball back into FoP . . then falls back to the ground which is in touch.

What's your opinion on the two egs, TF?

In relation to the FoP, the spectator is beyond the touchline. Therefore if he touches the ball whether he is in the air, standing on a seat or standing on the ground, he is still in touch. Levitating has nothing to do with it.

Ian_Cook
29-09-10, 05:09
Paul - not picking on you today - honest:biggrin: . Chippenham RFC have power lines that run up and down the pitch - so rooted not in touch, but beyond the Dead Ball Line. I'd have a hard time calling that a lineout - it probably leads to the more equitable scrum option to the non-kicking side at the place of the kick, or else a 22m. Of course, if it hits inside the kicker's own half, perhaps it's an attacking srum 5!

Also, given the nature of powerlines, they are "rooted" at both ends, so if the ball goes dead, which end has it gone dead in goal?

ckuxmann
29-09-10, 05:09
The one that is closer to the team that will make it so the game does not end tied?

The Fat
29-09-10, 06:09
Handy summary for ARs

David J.
29-09-10, 07:09
If a player jumps from the FoP across the touchline to knock the ball back in and the ball has already crossed the plane of touch, the ball is in touch.

I know the law. I was referring to a suggestion of a way to change the law to make it easier to understand and less ambiguous.

The Fat
29-09-10, 08:09
I know the law. I was referring to a suggestion of a way to change the law to make it easier to understand and less ambiguous.

Sorry David. I misinterpreted your previous post then. I have duly given myself an uppercut:)

tim White
29-09-10, 14:09
Sounds like Chippenham needs 'Local Laws' when the ball hits the power lines- such as;
a. play on, ignore contact
b. scrum at place of original kick
c. the power lines ARE in touch on THAT side of the field, lineout opposite point of contact.

If the ball comes to rest ON the power line (often groups of lines make one conductor-spaced apart at regular intervals) the kicker has to fetch it or poke it off with a LONG rake (any player within 5m of the 'Raker' is deemed a possible source of ignition and is liable to penalty-PK taken at place of toasting, all flames must be extinguished and the carcass removed prior to restart).

Rit Hinners
29-09-10, 18:09
re Power lines (or a suspended camera).

One would think that if the kick would not have gone to touch, a scrum to the kicking side at place of kick would be the equitable thing to do.

A kick down the center of the pitch that hits an obstruction and lands in the middle of the field would seem an odd occurrence to bring about a lineout.