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Simon Thomas
25-09-06, 17:09
Level 7 match last Saturday - ball is at feet of yellow & blue hoops no 8 who is still bound with full arm.

http://www.hantsrefs.org.uk/images/photos/offside.jpg

Interested in your comments gents.

Pablo
25-09-06, 17:09
Assuming that's black's goal line - penalty try?

tim White
25-09-06, 19:09
Please confirm orientation. This is a scrum, on the try line, still straight, blue/yellow hoops playing from right to left and their scrum still properly formed and bound?

Blow the whistle quick before someone gets hurt or someone else does something stupid. looks like a penalty try, if given I'm not sure you could argue against it. So blatant I would be thinking possible card but there are so many broken off how could you?:confused:

Robert Burns
25-09-06, 20:09
Got to be a yellow for 8 or 5 if they have gone first.

Penalty Try is a cert!

didds
25-09-06, 22:09
afew years ago we had a similar situation... except the entire opposition somehow managedto disengage while we were still square on, going forward, ball at number eight's feet, one or two metres out. A couple of the oppo subsequently reengaged to try and halt the inevitable - to which the ref blew and RESET THE SCRUM.

I was fairly unimpressed but kept my own council (at least towards the ref).

PLEASE tell me the hoops got at least a PT if not were permitted to score their pushover?

didds

SONA
25-09-06, 22:09
Maybe they assumed that once the center line was in the tz the scrum was over? I don't know what they thought.

Robert Burns
25-09-06, 22:09
Even if they assumed that they would still be offside as the ball is still in the field of play and players (should) assume that the offside line will now be the try line.

SONA
25-09-06, 22:09
Even if they assumed that they would still be offside as the ball is still in the field of play and players (should) assume that the offside line will now be the try line.
Noted. I did not miss that point, but I can't really see the full bind of the #8 over the ball. It is possible he is unbinding and in the process of standing up slower than the players are attacking. It is really not clear.

Simon Thomas
25-09-06, 22:09
Yes Robert that is black try line, the ball is stll in at # 8 feet.
The number 8 was still fully bound up to one shoulder (not just elbow even which is now National Panel protocol).
It was not the first time it had happened !
And no a penalty try was NOT awardeed.
Scrum was re-set at 6m attacking side ball !

Maybe it will come up in discussion at a SW Region London Society meeting - it was one of yours Robert !

I had the coach of Yellow & Blue hoops on the phone today (who is a Society member and level 10 referee in his own right) asking me to confirm he wasn't geting it all wrong.
Sounds like someone was given a match well above his level of ability (a 9+2 ?) and couldn't cope with the cheating Kiwis in the blues team. But that is a personal opinion based on heresay analysis and one photograph.

chef11
25-09-06, 23:09
Did the referee even look to his left and tell them to stay bound and to remind the wing to step back(last foot)?
Did he call advantage?If not,for shame.He could of played advantage and the if nothing came of it,go to the PT and manditory YC.
At this level the referee sould be preventing the situations not reacting

Robert Burns
26-09-06, 07:09
Was it in London or a London Ref on Exchange?

If higher they should be getting assessed, London would never put a ref 2 levels above without one (Not in SE anyway).

Can you drop me a little more specifcs on a PM, just through interest, not going stiring.

Simon Thomas
26-09-06, 09:09
Sorry Robert - no names or other details.
I wouldn't like it done to one of our Hamsphire refs in an open forum.
It was a London Society referee NOT exchange referee.
I will follow RFU procedure and talk to my London Society opposite number so that a private discussion takes place with the referee concerned - always two sides to the story of course.
Either he had a 'bad day at the office', has specific areas of development to work on, maybe as he may be fairly new to English rugby he is applying interpretations allowed in his home country, or he is just not up to handling a level 7 League match yet.

spmilligan
26-09-06, 11:09
In the photo shown, many would give a penalty try and carding 1 or more players. No argument here. Although i do feel if it is not the first time it should have been dealt with before and therefore the situation neednt have arisen.
However it has, so, what would the order be for awarding try and carding.
would you call the offenders and captain over explain and card players, then run under post for try, or tell them to wait, award try, conversion and then card, or something different. Is there rule of protocol for this sort of situation? Opinions please.

Davet
26-09-06, 11:09
Maybe the assurance you seem to have had that the 8 was still bound was not the way the ref saw it? I can only assume that we have a difference of opinion as to the scrum being over...

If not, and 8 was bound properly then PT would be the call - frankly at whatever level -

The higher the level the faster lots of things happen and the experience of the ref is vital in sorting out what the sequence was and when an offence actually happened. But here we have a fairly static phase of play, and I would hope that a ref even at Level 13 would spot this 2 out of 3.

At level 7: 19 out of 20? Maybe a 5% error rate?

Robert Burns
26-09-06, 12:09
Sorry Robert - no names or other details.
I wouldn't like it done to one of our Hamsphire refs in an open forum.
It was a London Society referee NOT exchange referee.
I will follow RFU procedure and talk to my London Society opposite number so that a private discussion takes place with the referee concerned - always two sides to the story of course.
Either he had a 'bad day at the office', has specific areas of development to work on, maybe as he may be fairly new to English rugby he is applying interpretations allowed in his home country, or he is just not up to handling a level 7 League match yet.
I meant was it a London ref in Hampshire on exchange, or a team playing a team on London Turf?

I would never condone the naming or slating of a referee on the open forum, sensible debate is of course acceptable. Hence why I said Private message, I just wondered who the teams are in case I get them, lol.

It would be nice to think it was a bad day at the office, or something else happened that made him decide to do what he did. We all have shockers, just like teams and players. And as we all know, sometimes the picture doesn't show what was actually happeneing, just that split second.

Another note to boot is that London no Longer give out the +2 anymore, so would probably have been an 8+1. Not sure why.

Bryan
26-09-06, 12:09
However it has, so, what would the order be for awarding try and carding. would you call the offenders and captain over explain and card players, then run under post for try, or tell them to wait, award try, conversion and then card, or something different. Is there rule of protocol for this sort of situation? Opinions please.
A Penalty try is about to be awarded, so stop play immediately and bring over the offending player and both captains. Let the captains know of your decision, issue the cards, then award the PT. Better to spot the offender early on and get him off while you still remember who he is, than award the try and a conversion and leave them in suspense. Get the player in the bin ASAP as far as I'm concerned.
Particularly useful for foul play like high tackles and blatant obstruction. Blow the whistle and get the cards out, that way there is no retaliation while you're on your way under the posts and all of a sudden the sh!t hits the fan.

ex-lucy
26-09-06, 12:09
2 sides to a story: i wonder what reasoning led to a 6m scrum attacking side ball ...

pls tell me blues won!!

Robert Burns
26-09-06, 12:09
I'm assuming the 6m scrum was a typo and actually a 5m scrum.

Pablo
26-09-06, 13:09
pls tell me blues won!!

Nope. Dark Blue beat Yellow'n'blue by 11 points...

madref
26-09-06, 13:09
Hi

A level 10 ref doing a level 7 game he would not have been insured.

We must be careful in this day and age of litegation

David

Robert Burns
26-09-06, 13:09
The referee wasn't a L10 MadRef, the story came from a L10 ref.

Davet
26-09-06, 13:09
A level 10 ref doing a level 7 game he would not have been insured.


If he had been appointed to the game by his society, then why would he not be insured?

madref
26-09-06, 14:09
Sorry I thought he was a level 10 ref.

I worked in insurance for a long time and was on the main board of a large insurer.


Anyway I believe in the Marsh (insurer who insurers referees) terms and conditions referees are only allowed to referee upto 2 levels higher. An insurer would wriggle out of a claim then it may well fall onto the referee and society if he was knowingly appointed more than 2 level higher.

Not sure about what it says about club insurance there is a big anomaly there as they could well be insured through club insurance. If there is a serious injury I am sure this will be tightened up as well.

I would urge all societies caution now when appointing referees.

David

Also from my previous life in insurance I would urge referees if they think they are being appointed to more then 2 levels higher to check with society etc. If you are unsure do not do it as Sorry judge I didn't know would not cut in a court!

OB..
26-09-06, 14:09
My understanding is the same as Davet's. We were told that a referee not appointed by the society should stick to his own level, but if the society thought fit, they would appoint up to 2 levels higher.

The problem could arise if a L10 referee was running touch for a L7 game, and the appointed referee got injured..

Simon Thomas
26-09-06, 14:09
Madref - I did not say he was level 10 - only suggested he might be a development ref, so reffing one or two grades up (e.g. 9+2). RFU policy is to allow a referee to be appointed two levels above his grade for development purposes. However most Societies will only ever appoint one level up usually.
Any referee appointed by a Society is covered by insurance.

Robert - yes the story came from the visitors 1st XV coach, who is an active level 10 referee. Match was played on London Soc home turf.
6m scrum was typo - I touch type and didn't spot 5 and 6 on screen due to old age eyesight.
Interesting to hear no more +2 - I will ask Tim Miller why, when I see him for lunch (and if not covered by the Official Secrets Act will spill the beans here !)

Ex-Lucy - dark blue did indeed win.

DaveT - yellow&blue #8 was fully bound with whole arm and ref is just behind scrum half looking direct at him. My source is 100% reliable.

madref
26-09-06, 14:09
Hi

I still have a couple of friends at the old insurance company I will ring one of the underwriters and ask him what the situation is, then I will ring one of the claims people and the answer will lie somewhere in the middle lol.

TJ level 10 and referee gets injured interesting point, if it is a society appointment should TJ1 be at a level he can do the match.

Here in manchester at society appointments for Lancs cup etc we have had 2TJ and a 4th offical, sometime the 4th offical has been higher then the referee in the middle so he would come on if injured.

We can get some strange mismtaches up here the first round of lancs cup has drawn Sedgley Park (L1) v Rochdale (L6) so what level would this be and who would do it, could a Level 5 ref do this? Would this be classed as L4 and would you need a L5 4th offical or TJ.

Quite Interesting this when you come to think about it!

David

Davet
26-09-06, 15:09
DaveT - yellow&blue #8 was fully bound with whole arm and ref is just behind scrum half looking direct at him. My source is 100% reliable.

Simon - given that the Pope was the witness then it seems like a bad day at the office. I guess everybody has one, but that's a bit of a stinker. Hope the cat was out when he got home!

ex-lucy
26-09-06, 16:09
the only way out of this (if i were the ref in question under spanish/Hants/Glaws inquisition .. thumb screw an all) .... would be .. that the scrum/black front 5 broke up (see black 5 standing up) just before the FRs went over the try line and the ref was in the process of blowing his whistle at the time of the photo.... for a rescrum 5m.

Simon Thomas
26-09-06, 16:09
DaveT - Pope has nothing to do with it and based on last few weeks I wouldn't rely on his evidence anyway !
Witness is well above the normal but not quite at the Barry John, Gareth Edwards, Gerald Davies status.

MadRef - if you really want to talk to anyone it should be Marsh, who are current RFU insurers. Since RFU took policy central premium payment and dispensed with conditional funding, a lot was changed.

I repeat what I said earlier - if a referee is appointed by his Society he is covered by RFU Insurance. Duty of care has to be excercised by the Appointments Team, and we have a rule we never appoint more than one level up. iikleand as you say we can appoint same level (or -1) #1 TJs occasionally for Cup matches, etc. We can't afford luxury of 4th officials, except in Semis and Finals, as we have too many other matches to cover.

I suggest you ask your own Appointments Officer how he will handle the level of match and referee and #1 TJ appointment for Sedgley Park (L1) v Rochdale (L6) . Anything we might say is purely speculation as he is the man with local knowledge. Maybe he asks for a Panel Team of 3 in any case - I would.

didds
27-09-06, 08:09
the only way out of this (if i were the ref in question under spanish/Hants/Glaws inquisition .. thumb screw an all) .... would be .. that the scrum/black front 5 broke up (see black 5 standing up) just before the FRs went over the try line and the ref was in the process of blowing his whistle at the time of the photo.... for a rescrum 5m.

AIUI just because the oppo wan't any longer attached does not bring about the end of the scrum (see my anecdote above).

As by definition then the back row have unbound there should be Advantage being played. Players rejoiningh the scrum is also illegal and would be a casee of advantage (or PT).

In short AIUI there is no rasopn to RESET a scrum in these circumstances - only penalise or play advantage as approrpriate.

didds

Davet
27-09-06, 10:09
Simon - given that Barry John etc are all well above any Papal standard anyway I'll accept the testimony from one who is "not quite" at their level.

I was just concerned with possible differences in interpretation.

But no longer.