PDA

View Full Version : Line out, what do you mark?



ctrainor
01-11-10, 17:11
I've always marked the middle but during my current hamstring rest noticed a few Guys marking the defensive line that the shouldn't step over.
I'm thinking of using this on my return, any thoughts gents?

PaulDG
01-11-10, 17:11
I've always marked the middle but during my current hamstring rest noticed a few Guys marking the defensive line that the shouldn't step over.
I'm thinking of using this on my return, any thoughts gents?

At your level, it seems to be the norm.

At mine, the players seem to expect the line of touch to be marked.

Davet
01-11-10, 17:11
Not sure it matters too much - either we mark LoT and say "half meter either side, please", or we mark defensive Line, and say" 1 metre gap, please" to attackers.

Doing it the second way could make it simpler - the defender know exactly where to stand and the attackers can be made to leave the gap from there - avoiding each side claiming the other has to give way...

Dixie
01-11-10, 17:11
I started off wanting to say that I can't really see the value of marking the defensive line compared to the LoT - unless you mark both defensive and attacking lines (and wipe their noses and bottoms for them too), they need to sort out a gap. If the attack simply line up half a metre away, you've still got problems.

But then I got to thinking ... the attack are more likely to want to maintain a decent gap, so anchoring the defensive line may well be the way to go. Like Ciaran, I think I'll give it a go.

Simon Thomas
01-11-10, 18:11
My referee on Saturday did just that three weeks ago and changed to a defensive mark, on his coach's advice, but reverted back to centre line mark on Saturday after two critical assessment reports re his managment of line out :biggrin: .

I was able to report he managed the line out well, except waiting too long to FK defnsers early jump, then FK hooker for delayed throw to get early jump (at 1/16 and 1/23 respecitively). if he had done it at 1/05 and 1/09 he would have close to perfect :bday: .

OB..
01-11-10, 18:11
We can argue the theory, but all I really want to see is that the lineout is set properly without too much fuss or repetition.

However it is standard practice around here to mark the line of touch, so when the occasional referee marks just the defenders' line, the players tend to treat it as the line of touch. They may remember for a few lineouts, but then quickly revert to type.

Whatever the respective merits, I would prefer to see just one technique.

Adam
01-11-10, 19:11
I've always marked the middle but during my current hamstring rest noticed a few Guys marking the defensive line that the shouldn't step over.
I'm thinking of using this on my return, any thoughts gents?

I use it, and I find it works effectively. Especially when the thrower's team complain about the opposition's gap. Quick comment usually works and gives us all a laugh!

Account Deleted
01-11-10, 19:11
Argreed. Consistent approach.

ddjamo
01-11-10, 19:11
I have tried marking the non throwing side and it seems to confuse the players. I stick with the LOT and insist on a 1m+ gap and have not had issues in months. I say go with what works.

Bryan
01-11-10, 21:11
I am concerned with defenders more than the throwing-in team at the lineout. The defenders are the most likely to want to close the space between the two lines. The attackers want as much space in order to free up the most attacking options by guaranteeing a clean catch and space to move (whether it's off the top or to setup a driving maul). Therefore, I'm ensuring the defenders are far away first before then managing the throwing-in team's line (to make sure they dont step across to gain the extra yard).

When it comes to the line of touch:

1. I will make the AR, when close to a line running across the field (especially the 22m), take a step to either side of the line so that the line of touch is not the same as the line on the field. This does two things:

A. At the 22m line, it makes it clear for all spectators to see if the lineout is inside or outside the 22m area

B. It allows me as a referee to use one of the lines as a "do-not-cross" line for one of the teams. I can then set the other team as far away from the "do-not-cross" line as I please.

The exception is obviously the 5m line at either end, in which case I just make sure the AR keeps the hooker from throwing it in until I've got the gap and then gone to the back (on most occassions).

We might give the impression that we treat sides equally, but that's total BS. We look for who is most likely to offend and hammer them first (and this applies at all phases of the game). At the lineout, when it comes to setting the gap, the defenders are the ones who should be high on the priority list, but that's just my approach.

Not Kurt Weaver
01-11-10, 22:11
Oh, Ah I ah dunno, but TBPH I never mark the line of touch. Seems a bit hand holding at any level. Now I learn most refs mark the LOT. What am I missing?
Probably 1m space at the line or teams closing down.

This is quite a shock actually. I have been coached to do so. I've always viewed a LO as the flow of the game (similar to soccer throw-in), an immediate restart if the throwing team so decides.

Ask, Tell, FK is what I've done in the past

Lee Lifeson-Peart
01-11-10, 22:11
I mark LoT.

It saves having to look at the TJ to see whose throw it is as invaribly they are not there (L9 less so) (looks up a down touch line to spot TJ/Sub/Physio talking to cute lass, fellow sub or spectator).

The LoT is the LoT - I'd balls it up if I had to take account of throwers and oppos.

It has never been suggested I change and I insist on the two washing machines gap.

Line outs are ok ATM

Dickie E
01-11-10, 23:11
I'll usually mark LoT early in game then leave it to the players to manage provided they do it properly. Then again, I invariably have ARs or TJs and more often than not stand at back of lineout.

Davet
01-11-10, 23:11
2 washing machines...?

OK I like a nice gap, but it only needs to be 1m between the two lines.

How wide is a washing machine.

ddjamo
01-11-10, 23:11
I am concerned with defenders more than the throwing-in team at the lineout. The defenders are the most likely to want to close the space between the two lines. The attackers want as much space in order to free up the most attacking options by guaranteeing a clean catch and space to move (whether it's off the top or to setup a driving maul). Therefore, I'm ensuring the defenders are far away first before then managing the throwing-in team's line (to make sure they dont step across to gain the extra yard).

When it comes to the line of touch:

1. I will make the AR, when close to a line running across the field (especially the 22m), take a step to either side of the line so that the line of touch is not the same as the line on the field. This does two things:

A. At the 22m line, it makes it clear for all spectators to see if the lineout is inside or outside the 22m area

B. It allows me as a referee to use one of the lines as a "do-not-cross" line for one of the teams. I can then set the other team as far away from the "do-not-cross" line as I please.

The exception is obviously the 5m line at either end, in which case I just make sure the AR keeps the hooker from throwing it in until I've got the gap and then gone to the back (on most occassions).

We might give the impression that we treat sides equally, but that's total BS. We look for who is most likely to offend and hammer them first (and this applies at all phases of the game). At the lineout, when it comes to setting the gap, the defenders are the ones who should be high on the priority list, but that's just my approach.

good points bryan. I have watched enough of your film to see how you do it and wondered a few times on what you were thinking. very good points - see what you mean now.

I have been coached (in canada actually) that on a 5m we should go to the scrum half/receiver position on the defending side no matter who is throwing in on most occasions. at times I will look brilliant when the attackers drive immediately and the try is score at my feet. other times it's a twisting mess to get everything sorted. what do you think about that position and why do you prefer the back at a 5m lineout?

Bryan
02-11-10, 01:11
I have been coached (in canada actually) that on a 5m we should go to the scrum half/receiver position on the defending side no matter who is throwing in on most occasions. at times I will look brilliant when the attackers drive immediately and the try is score at my feet. other times it's a twisting mess to get everything sorted. what do you think about that position and why do you prefer the back at a 5m lineout?

(this is where I'd add the Pinch-of-salt emoticon)

Firstly let me pre-empt all debate by saying this: Refereeing is like Sex - you can do it from any position provided you're comfortable and it helps you achieve your ultimate goal.

Having said that, let me now assume that I've got a qualified, competent AR. My brief to them is that if I'm at the back, they're tracking anything in the 5m channel: non-throwing hooker, the peel around the front (especially looking for attackers obstructing by blocking the hooker) etc.

If I'm at the back, on the defending side (no matter who is throwing it) it lets me do a few things:

1. If the ball is off the top at the back (giving the attacking team the most options), I can move out to channel 1 for the peel from the forwards, as well as move into in-goal and run along the goal line if the ball goes out wide to the wingers in channel 3/4. If I'm at the front and the peel happens at the back, it's a harder line to run and it's easier to miss defenders leaving the lineout early (moving infield to stack up the defensive line) or to spot attacking peelers obstructing.

2. If the ball goes to the front and they drive, I'll use the AR on that side to track the blindside (he'll be out of in-goal) and I'll be in-goal, so that he catches anything close to the touchline and I can then sweep-round to the attacking side if the ball comes towards me, or I'll just scoot around to find the ball if it hasnt made it into in goal and it's still at the back of the maul that is driving.

3. If the defenders throw in, it's unlikely they are going to go off the top (high risk of dropped ball by #9 and possible try at worst, or knock-on and turnover at best). So they'll want to get a clean catch and hold the ball to keep the opposition backline far away and tie-in the opposition forwards to between the 5m and 15m i.e. in the lineout. Again, the AR will track anything in that 5m channel.

The next thing is to manage the oncoming forwards in the lineout who will try to charge down the kicker. They will typically be at the BACK of the lineout as they will want as much free space to get a fast run in on the #10. If I'm at the front, it's harder to do this (there are defending forwards in the way of me and the players wanting to charge it down). Furthermore, if the #9 tries to pass at an angle to #10, I am already out of the way of the pass. If I'm on the inside (between the 5 and 5) it means I now have to come around, in front of the passing-line, to move infield, so basically I'm stuck here until the pass is thrown.

Finally, if they do go off the top and try to run it out, standing in the 5m channel makes it nearly impossible to catch up to the winger at the other end if they spot the gap out wide, leaving you to elbow your way through the 16-odd forwards in front of you to get it to the other side of the touchline.

It's not about running less, it's about playing the odds to give yourself the best advantage to effectively manage the contest and make an accurate decision. For me, this happens when I'm at the back.

Remember, this is just my rationale and a description of what works for me.

ddjamo
02-11-10, 01:11
good stuff...am going to pass these posts on. cheers bryan!

Donal1988
02-11-10, 01:11
For what its worth in Ireland you'll get marked down in assessments if for a 5m lineout you are not at the back of the lineout on the defensive side and ready to move the minute the ball is thrown. It may possibly be relaxing in apalling weather conditions or when lifting is not used, as the ball is unlikely to be thrown beyond the first receiver. But we're encouraged to be at the back of the lineout, defensive side 99.99% of the time for a 5m lineout.

ctrainor
02-11-10, 08:11
Good Stuff Bryan now Give us your insights in the real world where we never have Qualified AR and occasionally don't have ARs at all.
PS I'm now thinking i'll stick to LoT

andyscott
02-11-10, 09:11
talking to cute lass, fellow sub or spectator).


Cute lass, which club is that?? or was it on exchange? :D

I mark the defensive line each time and advise the throwing in team (if they moan about the gap) that they can take more of a gap if they wish and it should help them ;)

TBH after about 5 lineouts most defensive teams actually just go and set themselves and they are pretty much spot on :wink:

For the LO on the 5m I dont know if it is correct, but I get the team nearest the goalline to use the 5m line as there line. No one seems to challenge it.

ex-lucy
02-11-10, 13:11
Bryan/ ddjamo.
almost word for word what our top ref told us in a line out workshop the otehr week ... he refs at Championship level.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
02-11-10, 18:11
2 washing machines...?

OK I like a nice gap, but it only needs to be 1m between the two lines.

How wide is a washing machine.

I've asked our lass and she says 600mm

Dixie
02-11-10, 22:11
I've asked our lass and she says 600mm
Crikey! Mine is 60cm, while my neighbour assures me theirs is 0.6m.

beckett50
02-11-10, 23:11
I've always marked the middle but during my current hamstring rest noticed a few Guys marking the defensive line that the shouldn't step over.
I'm thinking of using this on my return, any thoughts gents?

Whatever you do make sure you are consistent.

Personally I mark the LoT.

Pre-match I tell the men at the front of the line that I will always mark the LoT. I will set the first couple of line outs so that they know the gap I want, after that they self-police. If the gaps close its their fault, not mine.
Ping early and they get the message

Donal1988
03-11-10, 00:11
Ping early and they get the message

For what it's worth I find the lineout an incredibly easy aspect of the game to "manage" out the offenses rather than pinging early.

Bungle
09-11-10, 13:11
The other problem with marking where the non-throwing side stands is remembering that consistently for 80 minutes. You find yourself lazily marking what you think is the defensive mark only to find the lineout is the other way.

I've tried marking both lines so the front men know where to start. This only works if you are pretty fit and can pretty much always get to the lineout first.

Marking LoT works in most situations and you can manage it if one side consistently closes up - remind front man of his duties, last warning, FK. I wouldn't advise moving from marking LoT to defensive line mid-game as a management technique as you are taking organisational responsibility back from the players and putting it onto yourself.

Bryan
09-11-10, 14:11
Good Stuff Bryan now Give us your insights in the real world where we never have Qualified AR and occasionally don't have ARs at all.
PS I'm now thinking i'll stick to LoT

Manage it early from the front, then move to the back once the gap is established. If you really think they're going to try the front 5m peel you can always stay at the front, but be prepared to hustle if it goes deep and off the top.

Davet
09-11-10, 14:11
You find yourself lazily marking what you think is the defensive mark only to find the lineout is the other way.



Hmmmmmm

If you suspect that the comment to come is that you need to concentrate for the whole game, and not find yourself "laziliy" doing anything....


You'd be right.

Thin Twin
09-11-10, 19:11
I always mark the defensive line (after being coaches and assessed to do so). I find it makes things easy as the defense know exactly where they need to be and you put responsibility onto the attacking team to create the 1m gap.

It also allows you a moment to speak with one or other of the props, which helps if there are any scrum / pack issues and you want a quiet word with someone who will pass the message on. If you help them with little elements of the game - such as where to stand - they will often help you when needed.

If you set your stall out early it will enable you to be consistent and is easier to manage.

Ultimately though do what is most comfortable for you.