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blindasabat
10-10-06, 13:10
I was watching a game on Saturday and the ref awarded a penalty. The team kicked the ball into touch and were forming the lineout when the timekeeper called halftime and the referee stopped the game. Doesn't the ref have to wait until the ball goes dead from the lineout before he can call time?

SimonSmith
10-10-06, 13:10
THe ball is dead. It deceased when it crossed the touchline. It was still breathing before it crossed the line.

What's your rationale in law for thinking that the line out must take place?

tim White
10-10-06, 13:10
You only play out a penalty, unless the line or scrum has formed before time expires-tough!

Had exactly this scenario on Saturday. They didn't ask how long left, so I didn't tell them as one score could have decided the match.

blindasabat
10-10-06, 14:10
Thanks for the clarification, my rationale was that as far as I could tell the ref had awarded the lineout but when the timekeeper called time the ref blew for half time.

ExHookah
10-10-06, 15:10
You only play out a penalty, unless the line or scrum has formed before time expires-tough!

Had exactly this scenario on Saturday. They didn't ask how long left, so I didn't tell them as one score could have decided the match.

That's a tough one, almost puts you in difficult ethical territory:
a) Trailing side has penalty, you tell them last play, and they keep it alive.
b) Trailing side has penalty, you don't tell them last play, they kick to touch, you end the match.

Option a could lead to pissing off the side who were leading, especially if the "tap and go" penalty ends up with a score to win it.

Option b will lead to outrage from the trailing side who feel that you should have warned them. (you're not obliged to though)

Either way, I think the onus is on the trailing team to have been keeping track of time and asking you before they boot it dead. I find teams tend to ask fairly regularly in any close match. My watch also beeps when there is 5 minutes left, which normally prompts someone to ask me if that's time, so there's normally a warning there.

I tend to keep it even as well, so if one team asks for a time check, I'll make sure both teams hear the response.

Simon Griffiths
10-10-06, 16:10
Option b will lead to outrage from the trailing side who feel that you should (you're not obliged to though)
Well, I thought the Laws specifically prevent us. It would be very unusual for a team that are losing a close match like that not to be constantly pestering the ref about how long is left. It is entirely their captain's fault.

OB..
10-10-06, 16:10
Law 6.7 (e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or line-out has not been completed the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.
If the line-out was awarded before time expired, then you should play the line-out.

I agree that a referee should not volunteer the time, but if asked, should give the information to both teams.

Simon Thomas
10-10-06, 17:10
OB hits it on the head.

If you have awarded the scrum or line-out, you should play it even if not formed etc before the time is up.

My advice is never tell one side the time left pro-actively. I always respond that there is x minutes left plus 'some' injury time (to give myself flexibilty) and I make sure I tell both sides, not just the requester.

Likewise a last minute penalty should be preceded by a question by players - "is there time for line out sir ?", and I would reply loud enough to both sides to hear, "There is time for a line-out left", or "last play gentlemen".

ex-lucy
10-10-06, 17:10
my watch chimes on 40 mins quite loudly which is a good indicator to nearby players i.e. not the wings and FBs, but yes there is usually a great chorus of players from about 20 mins into second half asking "how long left, sir?".

my watch is a 2006 World Cup soccer ref's watch which can run two stopwatches simultaniously on the same face i.e. one keeps running while i can stop/restart the other for injuries etc.

Wert Twacky
11-10-06, 16:10
Ex-Lucy,

Blimey - that sounds far too complicated for my little brain. And I'm probably likely to f**k up the buttons I'd need to press, ending in my watch telling me how many feet we are above see level, or something like that!

Account Deleted
11-10-06, 18:10
A couple of weeks ago I stopped mine for an injury about a minute into the second half and forgot to restart it. Later I was asked howw much time was left when I noticed my error. Thankfully my watch displays the actual time so I did a quick calculation and said 10 mins. That was "bought". I checked my other watch discretely and found it was actually about 7 so not a bad guess.

Davet
13-10-06, 10:10
I use my old divers watch (over 20 yrs old Casio digital) it has a count down facility which I set for 40 mins - and which can be interrupted; so that for injury breaks I press a button which stops time and later restart it from the same point.

Early on I sometimes forgot to restart it - I now make a point of blowing the whistle and signalling time off - which is a great aid in remembering to blow the whistle and signal time on, it becomes habitual.

ex-lucy
13-10-06, 11:10
Davet: "I now make a point of blowing the whistle and signalling time off - which is a great aid in remembering to blow the whistle and signal time on, it becomes habitual."

me too. good practice methinks.

incidentally ... time off ...
can i stop the clock for the following?
1. talking to a captain about repeat offences/ verbals etc
2. then allowing a captain to talk to his team for about repeat offences/ verbals etc
3. talking to a player and capt for yellow/red card.

any other?

Simon Thomas
13-10-06, 12:10
hand up here too - forgot to re-start watch more than once, so always do full time-off / time -on as per RFU PNR protocol even for level 99 match.

seems to me we should all use our judgement, and I usually look at anything more than 2 minutes as being a time-off.

some real one that have hapened to me :


ball lost up tree / over fence / in bramble hedgerow
serious injury
remove coach / abusive spectator from pitch area
wait for dog walker to leave pitch
wait for brawling Colts parents to be separated by police in attendance
clear pitch as hot air ballon comes lands

tim White
13-10-06, 16:10
I made up my own score cards to insert into a plastic wallet thingy, it was the free yellow and red cards that made me do it. I have a box specially for 'clock time' at the start because I have forgotten to restart the watch too often. AND who kicked off at the start. AND who won the toss.

Deeps
13-10-06, 16:10
I use my old divers watch (over 20 yrs old Casio digital) it has a count down facility which I set for 40 mins - and which can be interrupted; so that for injury breaks I press a button which stops time and later restart it from the same point.

Early on I sometimes forgot to restart it - I now make a point of blowing the whistle and signalling time off - which is a great aid in remembering to blow the whistle and signal time on, it becomes habitual.

My old diver's watch had Siebe Gorman on it 'Use No Oil' in red and I had to give it back, same as my Rolex. I managed to buy 4 x Avia digitals from Argos for 7.50 each several years ago when they were clearing stock, 3 of them are still running and have the same features as Dave describes but with BIG NUMBERS. I wear two and use the countdown facility on both though I keep one running as my 'lapsed time'. This also helps when calculating a 10 minute sin bin which I time from when I restart my clock e.g. restarting playing time. It is visually easier to deduct 10 minutes from that shown rather than a quick sum in the head I find. Also, using lapsed time enables you to answer the inevitable question as to how much time is left.

I had a similar experience with fogetting to restart the clock after a stoppage and then realised just as Dave and others must have done that the formal procedure of whistling time off and then back on is an excellent reminder though it gets funny looks sometimes as to where the other timekeeper might be.

SimonSmith
13-10-06, 18:10
A senior referee once told me - absent a serious stoppage, it's always a 42 minute half!

GazMaz
13-10-06, 19:10
I had a similar experience with fogetting to restart the clock after a stoppage and then realised just as Dave and others must have done that the formal procedure of whistling time off and then back on is an excellent reminder though it gets funny looks sometimes as to where the other timekeeper might be.

Actually I find this good as most people hear me call time off, another reminder to myself that I've stopped the watch, somewhere in the back of my mind I know I have to press that button and shout time on! Clear for all then...

Simon Griffiths
13-10-06, 19:10
I also stick the hand up and whistle to start and end a stoppage. Like everyone else, I do it to remind me to re-start the watch! But, always with two watches, if I realise that I didn't re-start it, I'll usually go for a couple of extra minutes on the running watch (unless I know it's much more).

This can cause problems though if you're refereeing at a ground with a big score-board and clock, and the guy controlling it fancies doing a stop-start clock and then proceeds to stop/start everytime you scratch your head or call someone over (as happened to me last Wednesday!).

I've run touch on a number of occassions for one of our panel guys, and before every match he says "You two keep as many watches going as possible, I always forget to restart mine, always use the TJs..."

Mike Whittaker
14-10-06, 00:10
A senior referee once told me - absent a serious stoppage, it's always a 42 minute half!

Now that is much too simple, Simon! You will next be suggesting an analogue watch and just jotting down the time you started!!!

Still see refs blowing the whistle to start play and then pushing buttons as they run across the field, even looking down to check that the watch has started!!!

Rob W
14-10-06, 22:10
My biggest problem is that I use a different watch for a game. The start/stop and reset buttons are swapped. I've already reset my watch by mistake. Fortunately I write the start time down so know roughly how long is left

AlanT
15-10-06, 20:10
I found that whislting and signalling time on / off wasn't enough (though I still do it) ..... I now let my whislte dangle from my wrist at time-off instead of holding it - realising it's not in my hand for the re-start is a useful extra reminder.

Sandy
13-11-06, 14:11
I think good managment would dictate we help players wherever possible and a quick word with the kicker - "we don't have time for a line-out" may have been a better option.

The laws don't say we "have" to do this, but there are plenty of things we do to make it better for everyone - "ruck", "roll away tackler", "last feet", "knocked-back" etc etc.

Davet
13-11-06, 14:11
If we get to last play then I would normally let players know. It's not a secret, and I make sure both sides hear me.