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peperami
15-10-06, 18:10
Hi

Quick question about the game I refereed yesterday.

On half time, yellow attacking about 25 meters out, ruck forms, balls won by yellow, the red tackler was trying to get away and his feet were waving around. Yellow scrum half looks down and steps on the reds ankle.

I blew it straight away, had the yellow player and his captain stand away so I could speak to them.

I binned the yellow player for boot on the body, specifically a joint. It wasnt a stamp therefore no red.

I then had a word with the red player to watch his feet as he rolls away.

No one complained about the decision pre or post match.

What do people think about this ?

Probably an earlier whistle to stop the whole thing from happening?

OB..
15-10-06, 18:10
From your description, you handled it correctly.

However it is always difficult to judge when you haven't seen the incident - and a referee's description of what he saw is liable to be shaded by what he actually did.

Still, if nobody complained, then why worry about it?

Simon Griffiths
15-10-06, 18:10
If the ball was won, I don't think that an early whistle was really necessary (or really an option at all).

Sounds like some sensible refereeing though. If it was a stamp, yes, definite red - but if you were happy it was just silly use of the boot (but not 'stamping'), then yellow was a good call. You had to do something, and I don't think just a PK would have sufficed. Of course we didn't see it, but from what you've said, it sounds about right.

Related - did anyone see Oakes stamp on Dallaglio's ankle in the Wasps - Newcastle match today? Just thinking of ex-lucy's thoughts on that very type of act a few weeks ago. Stuart Barnes (for once) said something sensible on referee management when he said, "Definite card, and he can probably think himself lucky it was only yellow." Some serious damage could have been done as it was a stamp and looking at it on the TV, he definitely appeared to know what he was doing.

OB..
15-10-06, 20:10
I thought Oakes was partly responsible for the previous incident with Shaw. I agree that Shaw drove him up in the air at the maul, but he also let him down again safely. Instead of getting back onside, Oakes stood his ground and pushed/hit at Shaw, who overreacted. IMHO definitely NOT a yellow for Shaw under the circumstances.

I did not do a Fred Howard for the later incident. It was a high grade yellow, bordering red, but not quite there.

OB..
15-10-06, 20:10
[duplicate]

madref
15-10-06, 20:10
Sounds ok to me.

I always blow up early I hate feet on bodies too many flash points.

If feet go anywhere near the body dangerous, if players say sir he was not moving, my reply I have dealt with it all game are you telling me you do not want any more advantage playing captin.

Please have a word with your team and keep their feet to themselves.

This has worked well this year and stopped the flash points on the ground. But make sure you penalise the tackler if he does not roll away.

David

Simon Griffiths
15-10-06, 21:10
I thought Oakes was partly responsible for the previous incident with Shaw.
At the risk of going slightly off-topic, I have to agree with you. Although for a slightly different reason (although what you've said is certainly right, bit of hand-bagging and the right decision made). However, I felt that when they had their original little scuffle, before Shaw broke off and then lifted Oakes' legs, I got the impression that Oakes had gone to head-but Shaw - which led to the retaliation by way of leg-lifting incident. Alas, they only replayed the leg-liftng incident on, so I never got to confirm if I was right or I'd made too much of something.

ExHookah
16-10-06, 15:10
Sounds like a good decision there Peperami, no need for the scrummy to put his boots anywhere near the guy on the ground.

In situations like that, of a player is trying to get out of there I'll sometimes add some comments like "Let him out, the ball is playable, leave him alone", but the players shouldn't have to rely on hearing something like that to control themselves.

jboulet4648
19-10-06, 02:10
Speaking of yellow cards, I have a commanding lead over all of New Engalnd in this department. I have 15 yellow cards in 9 matches. Quite an acheivement. I had a few others in three other pre season scrimmages but we won't count those, only the league matches. The key thing though is not one yellow was for a foul play management issue. All have been on repeat infringements, or professional fouls. I sadly had to give out my first red card in awhile, a player in a high level match, tried to ruck a player out of the way but used reckless boots and got two to the head.....sorry sir, you were the weakest link!

pending
19-10-06, 03:10
Speaking of yellow cards, I have a commanding lead over all of New Engalnd in this department. I have 15 yellow cards in 9 matches. Quite an acheivement. I had a few others in three other pre season scrimmages but we won't count those, only the league matches. The key thing though is not one yellow was for a foul play management issue. All have been on repeat infringements, or professional fouls. I sadly had to give out my first red card in awhile, a player in a high level match, tried to ruck a player out of the way but used reckless boots and got two to the head.....sorry sir, you were the weakest link!

I remember back to one particular match right after you picked up the whistle where you nearly had that many in the single match.... None of which were in the first half.....

Deeps
19-10-06, 10:10
I sadly had to give out my first red card in awhile, a player in a high level match, tried to ruck a player out of the way but used reckless boots and got two to the head.....sorry sir, you were the weakest link!

I still think that referees tend to be too lenient in this department. I have difficulty with players using their boots on players at all, in any shape or form.

Doth not the law state 'A player rucking for the ball must not ruck players on the ground.' Is this not unequivocal?

Yes, before anyone asks, I can tell the difference between intentional and unintentional use of the boot but I don't see this as a let out clause requiring a Nelsonian 'blind eye'. I tend to give the player on the ground the benefit of the doubt on grounds of safety, regardless as to whether I am just about to penalise him or not.

ex-lucy
19-10-06, 12:10
Oakes cited ...

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/News/story_54532.shtml

ex-lucy
20-10-06, 22:10
anyone see Cockbain's use of boot tonight?
yellow or orange or red ?

Me? Red!!

ex-lucy
24-10-06, 11:10
and now he has been cited .. Cockbain that is ..

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/News/story_54644.shtml

Padster
24-10-06, 15:10
What about the situation where you see a stray boot in the middle of a ruck stamp on a player but you can't identify whose boot it was, just the team?

I had this happen recently and yellow carded the player I thought had done it to send the message that I would not tolerate that sort of play.

It didn't happen again.

SimonSmith
24-10-06, 15:10
I admire your principle but worry about your actions!
I really believe you can only send the guy that you KNOW did it. What if you got the wrong guy?

Over here, that could have repercussions as YCs can have a cumulative effect and will be used in red card deliberations.

If I'm not sure I make a point of calling over the captain and making sure he, and his team, know that I'm pissed. I then make it very clear that the only reason he has 15 players is because I couldn't identify the guilty party.

That's about as much as you can do, methinks.

Simon Griffiths
24-10-06, 15:10
I make a point of calling over the captain and making sure he, and his team, know that I'm pissed.
Are drunk referees well received in the States? :D

Often, even if you can't spot the number, there might be something to identify the player - distinctive boots, tape on socks or different coloured socks etc. (or, if it was a good shoeing, blood on the studs :rolleyes: ).

Padster
24-10-06, 21:10
At the level concerned the yellow cards don't count to anything. I used it as a management tool for the game. If I was 100% positive I would probably have given a red as what happened was sly and cowardly. Red would have counted.

ExHookah
24-10-06, 22:10
At the level concerned the yellow cards don't count to anything. I used it as a management tool for the game. If I was 100% positive I would probably have given a red as what happened was sly and cowardly. Red would have counted.

I think that it helps to track the yellows. I know it's work for someone, but it's helpful in controlling players. It's done here on all levels, and you can see that the players are frustrated with themselves for getting the cards, and suspensions for multiple yellows are being handed out by the committees.

Simon Thomas
25-10-06, 01:10
In England Yellow Cards are only counted and reported for disciplinary use at Premier to National 3 levels.

However some Societies & CB are recording them for their own internal managment uses at level 5 and below

ex-lucy
31-10-06, 18:10
and now he has been banned for 20 days ... Cockbain that is ... which beggers the question... WTF was the ref doing waving a YC ???

SimonSmith
31-10-06, 19:10
Applying his judgement based on his experience and what he saw in front of him in the game I presume.

Not sure I'm a big fan of referee's being over ruled, unless the ref admits he made a cock up.

OB..
31-10-06, 21:10
... or unless things showed up on tape which the ref could/did not see.

SimonSmith
31-10-06, 22:10
I saw the Cockbain incident, and based on that televisual evidence, the referee must have had a better view.
The camera showed nothing to me anyway that would have made me over rule the referee.