PDA

View Full Version : Quick tap and go



stueymcc
24-10-06, 23:10
I am under the impression (due to refs telling me this when i was playing)as are the teams i ref that if at a penalty the attacking side takes a quick tap and goes but is stopped by a player who has not retired the requisite 10 metres then another penalty will be given 10 metres ahead of the first mark. Pretty clear.
But the attacker is not allowed to take a quick tap the second time until the defending team have retired 10 metres.
Why has this come about. In the laws i can only see that the attacker can not go again until the second mark is made by the ref. Is it just a management issue? Is it just an arbitrary step we take to stop positive atacking play? or have i missed something in the law book.

Some teams think that if i give a penalty which they interfere with e.g kick ball away, hold ball to stop scrum half getting it quickly etc.. and i march them 10 metres then once again they think the penalty can not be taken quickly? Where do they get this from? I let them go quick from this situation on Saturday and attacking side scored, to the intense, yet misinformed dislike of the defending side. What is your understanding oh learned men in yellow.

Simon Griffiths
24-10-06, 23:10
stueymcc, welcome to RRF! :)

You are, I would say, entirely correct in Law. I think it is a management tool to just slow it down (I suppose you are right, it could be construed as negative 'play' from the referee), but it also prevents potential flash-points escalating - a PK, quick tap, 10m infringement, PK, quick tap, 10m infringement, PK, quick tap etc. etc. situation could occur and (even at the second tap) the could frustrate the attacking side (or even both) and cause problems that could be quite easily avoided by slowing everything down to let things cool/settle and manage the offending team.

There's nothing to say the second can't be taken 'quickly', but most referees (who know, as you do the actual Law) will be very, very slow in making the new mark. Others will just yell "Can't take a quick one, come back..."

PaulDG
25-10-06, 00:10
Why has this come about. In the laws i can only see that the attacker can not go again until the second mark is made by the ref. Is it just a management issue? Is it just an arbitrary step we take to stop positive atacking play? or have i missed something in the law book.

I don't believe you've missed anything in the book but the way my assessor described it to me it wasn't about stopping positive attacking play; it was about stopping bloodshed.

Offside, particularly if it involves contact, just after a quick kick is a flashpoint. By preventing the second kick being taken quickly you give the time for things to calm down a little and because the offending team will then be onside, you remove the possibility of a repeat offence and tempers boiling over, etc.

Jacko
25-10-06, 01:10
My view on this is simple. The side that were denied the advantage of a quick tap and go at the first instance are the side playing positive rugby. Don't punish them. The law requires me to make a mark before the second penalty can be made. I will make this mark before I allow the positive side to make an attack. I won't however allow the defending side unlimited time to organise their defense. Why should I??? I usually jog to the mark for the second penalty. Usually the attacking side is right alongside me, anxious to take the tap. I communicate with them - "wait for the mark". I also communicate with the defending team - "get 10, get 10". If they don't get 10 quicker than I can jog to the new mark then they deserve another march back 10 and the threat of cards to make them retire IMHO.

Deeps
25-10-06, 02:10
Stuey - When I speak to the two Captains before doing the toss I briefly cover the tap penalty e.g 'Quick taps where I can see them please gentlemen otherwise I cannot give you an extra 10 if the opposition don't retire. Please make sure your players do retire when the penalty is against them to avoid unnecessary flashpoints; incidently I regard players deliberately failing to retire as a professional foul'. Genuinely, I do try and say that.

As others have stated you are quite correct, there is nothing in law to prevent you awarding a second or a third quick penalty. As you have to make a mark on each occasion before the kick can be taken, you control the speed at which the next kick is taken. Walking pace is advised so as not to be unduly harsh; mind you, if the offending team are taking liberties then up your pace accordingly.

On the second occasion of players not retiring (assuming their action is deliberate and material to the play) I will summon the skipper and remind him of our previous discussion with reference to professional fouls. Subsequently, if it has been appropriate, I have awarded a YC.

Coler
25-10-06, 10:10
I recall as a player on my schools U18 team (about 12 years ago so) in a cup game being marched from the opposition 5 yard line to our 22 by way of quick taps in succession, following by a 10 yard march back. On one of the I asked "are we ten" and he said yes; he then penalised one of our team and said "I meant you, not him, he was 8".

They finally scored with a penalty kick after I as captain asked the ref to please give my team time to retire 10 before they took their tap (and I was exactly that polite in my younger days)

I did this within spitting distance of the touchline on the 22...he gave the kick centrefield on the 22...which they scored...and won the match 10-8.

I heartily agree with the analysis of quick taps as a game-management issue which can be controlled by prior disclosure to the skippers that you want them to wait for a mark and take it in front of you, and a warning that deliberately failing to get back is a professional foul.

Must see my therapist about getting some closure on my schooldays...

Davet
25-10-06, 10:10
The advanced PK or FK can only be taken when the ref makes the mark - the speed of that as the ref feels appropriate. In a good quick game then I will happily blow the whistle signal not 10 then jog to the new mark - the defenders can run faster than I can jog; and so have plenty of time.

There is a blight on the game at the moment, which is the questioning captain at a penalty. rather than running back to 10m from the mark he approaches and seeks to ask questions of the ref - which is fine as long he realises that the others can take the tap and go and that I will go with them. The other one is the injury at the penalty, "Sir, Man down!!" in the expectation that I will take time out - if the attackers want to kick for goal then I may well... but if they tap and go then we play on.

PS - Coler - how long does it take to retire 10? - Just turn round run back towards your own line. If had been the ref then your request would have indicated to me that you were not prepared to comply with the law immediately. the sequence is
1 Hear Whistle
2 See Penalty signal against you
3 Run away


and a warning that deliberately failing to get back is a professional foul.

No warning necessary - it is. Players know it is. Why do we insist on repeating the obvious every game? The pre match chat has grown inordinately, players should not need to be told every week what the law demands.

Coler
25-10-06, 10:10
Davet...point taken...my request was made as we frantically ran backwards from the site of the last whiste which I don't think is unreasonable - I absolutely agree that captains who ask for explanations at penalty where there is the possibility of a quick tap as opposed to break in play or downtime should not be entertained. The image of the ref sprinting down the pitch giving penalty after penalty for failure to retire with the attacking scrumhalf following directly behind him and tapping and going (which is what happened) is in my mind unattractive.

I think the fact that he moved the penalty to midfield is indicative of perhaps a slightly unreasonable ref.

tim White
25-10-06, 10:10
Why no YC for first deliberate stopping of the quick tap penalty? I would suggest deliberately preventing the quick tap is far more significant than 'not ten'-particularly if it is the same player who gave away the original penalty. Blatant time wasting trying to let the defence organise, probably accepting he will get YC for it and still be happy.

Davet
25-10-06, 10:10
Coler - I would be surprised if the ref was "sprinting" to make the next mark, perhaps walking quickly - which is fine by me. But why could your guys not sprint as fast as the ref?

I see no reason for moving the mark infield - I assume that the ref was perhaps a little confused, and moved the mark to the place of the offence. I wouldn't expect the mark to be advanced if a player did not actually interfere with play, but simply happened not to be 10 back.

In the worst case scenario the ref may have, as you suggest, been less than reasonable. But how many chances did you have to be given to work out what was happening?

Josh's Dad
27-10-06, 13:10
I think the biggest issue here is being missed! Where is 10m?

I know where I want the defending players, but they will either cheat on purpose (only go 8m) or accidently because they do not know where I want them! :confused: Without qualified TJs no-one is making a mark for the defenders to get back to, unlike Rugby League where players have to be back with the referee before the play of the ball at the preceeding tackle.

We talk to the players, of course, and hopefully there is always one or two asking if they are 10m, but 'not 10 quick taps' can swiftly get out of control unless managed by the referee. As stated in previous posts, the speed of the mark is up to the referee and I go as fast, or as slow, as necessary to ensure that my actions don't lead to confusion in the ranks of the defending team and subsequent flash points. :mad:

At the same time we have to be mindful of the 'cheats' and carry out subsequent action as required.

Davet
27-10-06, 13:10
If you think they aren't back 10 then tell them, don't wait to be asked. Just say "Get back!" If they are within what you consider to be 10 and there is a tap and go tell them to "leave him alone".

The most difficult assessment is did the player block the tapandgoer, or did was he run into in an attempt to get the extra yards (and or a YC). If the blocker is right up in the kickers face then I would strongly consider a YC, if he is 3 or 4 back and retiring in a straight line when he gets run into then play on.

ex-lucy
27-10-06, 13:10
wasnt Terenure was it ?

Robert Burns
27-10-06, 20:10
Sounds like a bog standard club referee in the old days Coler!

lol.

SONA
28-10-06, 15:10
A variation on the theme: If we introduce materialility....

Mark is made for penalty.

A very quick, and proper, tap is made.

Defenders have not retired, but are moving in that direction. Attacker runs past and through retiring defenders and gets to the 10 line before he is tackled or held up in a maul. Retiring defenders continue to retire and join from an onside position. Clearly the retiring members did not interfere with the attackers ability to get the 10m required and clearly they were offsides.

Play on? I did.

Comments?

And if a defender starting from the 10 meter line meets the attacker coming off the quick tap and tackles him in the middle is that not allowable? I usually have let the play go on. The key is to ensure that arriving players are doing so from an onsides position, not always an easy thing to do in a fast paced game.

Deeps
28-10-06, 17:10
A variation on the theme: If we introduce materialility....

Mark is made for penalty.

A very quick, and proper, tap is made.

Defenders have not retired, but are moving in that direction. Attacker runs past and through retiring defenders and gets to the 10 line before he is tackled or held up in a maul. Retiring defenders continue to retire and join from an onside position. Clearly the retiring members did not interfere with the attackers ability to get the 10m required and clearly they were offsides.

Play on? I did.

Comments?

That's exactly what you want to happen. Remember, offside players are only penalised if they interfere with play. Jogging back to enter the fray from an onside position is good.


And if a defender starting from the 10 meter line meets the attacker coming off the quick tap and tackles him in the middle is that not allowable?

Again, that's exactly it. Quite correct play as long as the player was 10m from the kicker when the kick was made. What's more, if he overtakes any of his previously retiring team mates, he puts them back on side as well, regardless to whether they have made it back to the original 10 metres
or not. A well known England/Matt Dawson counter to the quick tap.

ex-lucy
29-10-06, 00:10
agree.
agree.