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jeff
29-10-06, 16:10
i went to watch my sons local u11's play today in an away game and this is what happened.
they started with a club ref i'e foundation course.
he was ok walked all the game but wasnt to bad. my sons team were up 2 to 1 in trys at half time every one ok parents coaches etc.
second half about to start and i noticed that they the home team had changed the ref second in the first min the players were holding on on the ground and runing straight through the linout taken out a player without the ball my sons coach told the referee that they were holding on and the ref penalised the team for the coaches comment wwhen he again mentioned about the lineout he again penalised the team.
i then tryed to explain to him that he couldnt penalise a team because of the coaches view he told me to be quiet as he was the ref.
at that time i was bemused at his decision and went to the away coach to ask him what he was doing he then told me that he was a coach i said is he a referee he said no hes not, just a coach. ( no foundation course nothing)
the rest of the game was in my personal point was a shambles with safety a main issue as he was allowing players to be taking out without the ball and penalising when he felt, even for an accidental offside where the team player accidently run in to his own man. my sons team spread the ball wide and the player run around 25 to 30 metres not touched and scored the players coach was on the try line and called good try to the player the referee then said he handed off before the run and disallowed the try. i couldnt beleave what i was seeing so when the game finished the score 3 to 2 to them i went and asked this so called referee for his name as i couldnt beleave what had gone on he said that he was a level 5 coach. i am a level 2 coach but i havent heard of a level 5. 4 yes. he said that what the coach and i was doing was referee abuse i coudnt again understand what he was on about as i tryed to explain to him about the coach could have is own say and i was trying to explain that he couldnt penalise a team. his answer was that me being a referee shouldnt question his decision. my view is that it was a safety issue.
again what do you all think. and are the teams covered by the clubs insuarance with a non qualified referee doing the game. ?

OB..
29-10-06, 16:10
As long as the teams were properly registered, I don't think there is an insurance problem - very many junior games cannot get qualified referees.

Although your description makes it sound pretty bad, I can understand the coach/referee's reluctance to take advice from a spectator. You wouldn't! Was it bad enough for you to consider taking your son out of the game (however much he might hate you for it)? If not ....


At an advisers' meeting a while back the question arose as to when an adviser should interfere during a game. The general feeling was it should only be for serious safety issues. Whatever your personal qualifications, as a spectator you have even less status. Did you speak to your son's coach? If he was also concerned, he could have spoken to his opposite number. In general it does not help if parents get too involved. It is always assumed they are biased.

If you still feel the need to take matters further, somebody from your club could usefully contact the other club informally to ensure there is agreement on the laws for the age group. Recrimination is unlikely to be productive.

Dixie
29-10-06, 18:10
AS this was an U.11 game it was covered by the continuum, and the "standard" ref's qualification at that age group is the mini/midi referee rather than the NFC - a much reduced standard reflecting the lesser general standard of play. There are some pretty awful mini/midi refs around, but they all play their part in helping to develop the players of the future, and in my opinion deserve the fullest support. We all know the ref is at his most right when he's wrong - and the ethos of the continuum is about player development rather than winning. At U.11, of course, there is some excellent play and it is galling to have a well-drilled side reined in by a poor ref. But he's no less a ref for being poor, and the man in the middle always deserves our support and thanks - doesn't he?

Agree OB's comment as to safety.

jeff
29-10-06, 19:10
yes dixie, im all for supporting the ref's in the devolpment of the childrens game. but when it comes to a safety issue then thats something else. also there's a point in equity and law. and not taking it out on the players when a coach or someone on the sideline says something to the ref , again this ref had no mini midi or foundation course certificate. which i cant understand as in wales at the club i was coaching at, no one would be allowed to ref if no qualification was held.

ex-lucy
30-10-06, 11:10
"i then tryed to explain to him that he couldnt penalise a team because of the coaches view"
why not? maybe in minis you may ask the oppo coach to take resp for his spectators but in general why cant you ping the coach?

jeff
30-10-06, 11:10
why not? maybe in minis you may ask the oppo coach to take resp for his spectators but in general why cant you ping the coach?

LUCY' you are telling me that if a coach on the sideline said something like (ref hes got his hands on) you would penalise the team with a penalty against for the coaches comment. ( are you sure)???

ex-lucy
30-10-06, 11:10
i would ... based on advice recvd recently ...
1. ask him to be quiet and ask him to stop questioning my decisions bec it upsets his players and sets an atmosphere.
2. ask his capt to ask him.
3. take capt to sideline and say "capt, if i hear that coach questioning my decisions again i will penalise your team"
4. Remove coach from the playing area.

pls feel free to add comments ... see other post by me ... but i find that the more refs i ask advice from the more contradictions i get.
So i am beg to choose my favs for advice rcvd ... clue.. most of them are from this site.

jeff
30-10-06, 12:10
LUCY, i totally agree with points 1,2,and 4.
but not 3 you cant penalise the players for what a coach on the sideline says.
as when will it stop what if the home officials say somthing to you would you then penalise the team for their views.
by all means ask him to leave but not penalise the team they havnt done anything wrong. and shouldnt be santioned for their coach.

didds
30-10-06, 12:10
2. ask his capt to ask him.
3. take capt to sideline and say "capt, if i hear that coach questioning my decisions again i will penalise your team"


WADR I think you are placing a 10 year old (in the OP) ina very very difficult position. Even at U16 level i would feel this approach unfair on the captain.



4. Remove coach from the playing area.



That's number two I feel.

didds

PaulDG
30-10-06, 12:10
AS this was an U.11 game it was covered by the continuum, and the "standard" ref's qualification at that age group is the mini/midi referee rather than the NFC - a much reduced standard reflecting the lesser general standard of play.

The mini/midi referee qualification isn't "reduced" at all - if anything there's more to it than the NFC1 as there are many variations to the Laws that are not part of the adult game and hence weren't part of the old NFC1.

Though, of course, there are no mini/midi referee societies so there's no structured progression (unless things have changed in the last few weeks with the new qualification) within mini/midi refereeing and no monitoring or feedback.


There are some pretty awful mini/midi refs around, but they all play their part in helping to develop the players of the future, and in my opinion deserve the fullest support.

True on both counts. Of course, most referees at this level aren't "referees" at all - most are Level 1 coaches who quickly re-read the Continuum the night before the game. (Though they're still the "referee" for the game and Law 6.A.4 (a) applies!)


We all know the ref is at his most right when he's wrong - and the ethos of the continuum is about player development rather than winning. At U.11, of course, there is some excellent play and it is galling to have a well-drilled side reined in by a poor ref. But he's no less a ref for being poor, and the man in the middle always deserves our support and thanks - doesn't he?

Exactly.

Jeff, I'm not trying to be funny - you're a very highly graded referee (certainly compared to me!) - have you even thought of reading the Continuum yourself and offering your services to your sons U11's? Someone of your standard would really set an example to visiting coaches and may help them raise their refeeing "game". And the boys would certainly appreciate it!

jeff
30-10-06, 14:10
PAUL.DG, thanks for your comments.
yes i help out when i can but am refereeing most sundays colts u17's 16's etc
i left the coaching last september when i moved here from wales and am now just refereeing for my society and now and again for my sons club in youth and somtimes juniors.
my main issue is the safety of the players and to let them have a enjoyable game of rugby and if its going to be spoilt by some one then i am willing to discuss what their doing wrong and to make them aware for them to learn in the future. i dont mind antone talking to me after the game to tell me if ive had a good game or a bad one as we all have our own points of view and i will gladly talk to players, coach's, spectators,about my performance whilst im in the middle after the game.

PaulDG
30-10-06, 15:10
Hi Jeff,


...my main issue is the safety of the players and to let them have a enjoyable game of rugby and if its going to be spoilt by some one then i am willing to discuss what their doing wrong and to make them aware for them to learn in the future.

Though as we all know, that sort of advice works best when "asked for", not "offered".


i dont mind antone talking to me after the game to tell me if ive had a good game or a bad one as we all have our own points of view and i will gladly talk to players, coach's, spectators,about my performance whilst im in the middle after the game.

But you're a highly qualified and experienced referee who actually wants to referee. Most of the "referees" in Continuum age groups are Dads who played rugby once and found themselves booked on a Level 1 coaching course after being asked if they would mind "helping out" one cold Sunday morning. Few of them want to referee (though probably few of them thought they wanted to coach either!).

And remember, unlike us, once the coaches have done that Level 1, they don't have to be reassessed or monitored so "feedback" isn't always part of the "culture".

That said though I still think you should offer it. Work with your sons coaches and have them introduce you or introduce yourself to whoever the referee is and offer to comment on his [her?] performance at the end if they want it. You never know, you might start a few people thinking about taking it up properly.

(Might be worth considering going on the Referee's Assessors / Coaching courses yourself too.)

beckett50
30-10-06, 17:10
You should remember that there is a post-match "cooling off" period of 30 minutes when the referee should be allowed to conduct his/her own post-match routine.

If your approach was after this time then I see no problem. However, if you challenged him as soon as the final whistle was blown then he is within his rights to ask you to keep your thoughts to yourself until that 30 minutes is over.

Account Deleted
30-10-06, 18:10
Here you can't ref without the Level 1 certificate. All coaches must hold level 1 as a minimum so it should not be an issue. There is no insurance for the ref if he is not properly qualified. I'm not sure if the clubs' insuurances would cover their players either.
So it needs to be clarified.

Dixie
30-10-06, 19:10
All the Time Ref - I'm pretty sure that in England anyone who is asked by a club to referee a game at whatever level (adult, junior or mini/midi) is covered by the club's insurance, irrespective of qualification or ability. A society referee is limited by his grading in what he can be appointed to by the society, but if a club asks him to step in at a higher level, he is covered by the club's insurance. The level of that insurance is, however, lower than the Society's policy, so there is an element of risk for the ref.

Simon Thomas
30-10-06, 21:10
Exaclty Dixie - totally correct

Account Deleted
30-10-06, 22:10
I know when we come over to England for festivals and the like we are covered by the English Host club. so that would tie in with your comments.
Can't say I'd like the idea of someone with no training taking a game though.

PaulDG
31-10-06, 07:10
I know when we come over to England for festivals and the like we are covered by the English Host club. so that would tie in with your comments.
Can't say I'd like the idea of someone with no training taking a game though.

I'm not sure anyone likes it - but at the lower levels of the senior game there just aren't enough qualified referees around. Even fewer available for junior matches and at mini/midis level practically none.

But things "have got better" - it's not so long ago that the same was true for coaches.

jeff
31-10-06, 10:10
yes i can understand that not all matches dont have enough qualified refs but if their coach is there then surely he should then as the coach be made aware that he should take the mini midi or foundation course then that would cover mostly all the age grades if their coach was put through the course.
it seems sensible to me, thats what the clubs do in wales when you are going on you coaching course you are booked on the next available referee course.

PaulDG
31-10-06, 10:10
yes i can understand that not all matches dont have enough qualified refs but if their coach is there then surely he should then as the coach be made aware that he should take the mini midi or foundation course then that would cover mostly all the age grades if their coach was put through the course.

To get the English RFU "Seal of Approval", each squad needs a Level 1 qualified coach who has also completed an appropriate Sports First Aid course. All volunteers working with children should also be CRB checked.

There's no requirement for all coaches to be qualified, no requirement for a First Aider to always be available per squad, and no requirement at all for any refereeing qualifications.

(And, speaking from personal experience, it's relatively easy to get volunteers to fill in the CRB form, a little harder to get them to go on the Level 1 coaching course, harder to get them to do the First Aid and next to impossible to get them to consider doing a Refereeing course.)

jeff
31-10-06, 10:10
then why are they involved if their not willing to take on these requirements.
i was coaching back in wales for around 5 years and yes i had helpers but they were also told if they were there week in week out they would be required to take the coaching course which they did knowing that they would further their knowlege of the game to pass on to their teams and then were booked on the referee course.
what i find strange is why get involved if your not willing to take the course to better yourself and the teams around you.

PaulDG
31-10-06, 11:10
then why are they involved if their not willing to take on these requirements.

Well many get involved simply because if they don't there wont be anyone else.


i was coaching back in wales for around 5 years and yes i had helpers but they were also told if they were there week in week out they would be required to take the coaching course which they did knowing that they would further their knowlege of the game to pass on to their teams and then were booked on the referee course.
what i find strange is why get involved if your not willing to take the course to better yourself and the teams around you.

I agree - most clubs will pay for at least the Level 1, the First Aid, the Tag Course and the NFC1 and mini/midis Refereeing courses. Now obviously there are always going to be timetable issues, but it's amazing how hard it can be to get volunteers to actually fill in the forms and turn up to courses. Even to the obviously necessary courses like the Level 1 and the First Aid.

As for Refereeing, well I suppose few see that as part of what they "signed up" to. Or perhaps the general shortage of qualified referees in England means that there's simply no expectation that the ref for U12s and down would ever be a qualified one so it just doesn't occur to most of the coaches that something should be done about it?

Tibbs
31-10-06, 11:10
Well many get involved simply because if they don't there wont be anyone else.



I agree - most clubs will pay for at least the Level 1, the First Aid, the Tag Course and the NFC1 and mini/midis Refereeing courses. Now obviously there are always going to be timetable issues, but it's amazing how hard it can be to get volunteers to actually fill in the forms and turn up to courses. Even to the obviously necessary courses like the Level 1 and the First Aid.

As for Refereeing, well I suppose few see that as part of what they "signed up" to. Or perhaps the general shortage of qualified referees in England means that there's simply no expectation that the ref for U12s and down would ever be a qualified one so it just doesn't occur to most of the coaches that something should be done about it?

One of my colleagues coaches his u12 side, and though an NFC2 ref himself, he only refs his own side. So he could concentrate on coaching, I would often go along to festivals and the like and referee for him. Even though I'm only a L11 now, and was a L13 last time I reffed at a Midi tournament, a lot of people said how nice it was to have "Proper" ref - even though I'd say I was any thing but...

I really think it's important to get involved at this level, as it can really set the tone for players as to attitude towards playing and also towards the ref. I certainly put up with, and afterwards took, a lot less stick than the other refs from the sidelines - I think maybe because I had instilled in me on my courses that I was the ref - right or wrong!

Chris

ex-lucy
31-10-06, 13:10
i coached a team of young lads from u8s to u19s .... i had loads of dads willing to help holding tackle pads, org lifts to away matches, sort the kitchen/bar out etc .. but coaching course? no. they were only willing to help out so far and let me do all the technical stuff with coaching. and reffing.
and of the current crop of mums and dads at my club ... prob only about 10% are credited as coaches.

didds
31-10-06, 20:10
And remember, unlike us, once the coaches have done that Level 1, they don't have to be reassessed or monitored so "feedback" isn't always part of the "culture".


Indeed. Its a soapbox of mine. You may be interested to know that a debate is occuring within the RFU at the moment with a view to implementing "licensing" whereby successful assessment at L1 (or L2/L3 etc) will license the coach for 3 years. At that juncture they will become "unlicensed" unless tey have sufficient CPD points accrued (ie attending workshops etc). The theory is that unlicensed coaches may only coach under the supervision of a licensed coach.

IMO this WILL be implemented - although by the same token I am (perhaps cynically) aware that this system has holes large enough to drive double decker buses sideays through them.

If I had my way.... there probabl wouldn;t be enough coaches available due to my draconian requirements!

didds