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Robert Burns
05-09-12, 06:09
Dedicated thread for this request:

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/wiki/index.php/12_-_Knock_On

The rugbyrefs.com members seek clarification of Law 12 in relation to the ball being knocked on.

Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

1, We believe that if a player carries out a drop kick it is accepted that the ball touching the ground is not a knock on, even if it travels forward & even though it would be classed as a knock on should the player then not kick the ball. Could this please be confirmed?

2, If a player punts the ball forward, the ball will generally have been released forward before the kick takes place. This is not to be classed as a knock on, even though it would be classed as a knock on should the player then miss the kick. Could this please be confirmed?

Considering the above confirmations as 'Yes' we would like a clarification for:

a) If a player accidentally loses control of the ball, and the ball travels forward, but the player manages to kick the ball forward with their foot deliberately before the ball touches the ground or any other player, is this a knock on?

b) If a player accidentally loses control of the ball, and the ball travels forward, but the player manages to kick the ball forward with their foot accidentally before the ball touches the ground or any other player, is this a knock on?

End of clarification request.

Discuss

OB..
05-09-12, 10:09
You can only punt or drop-kick if you release the ball forward, and strictly speaking that is contrary to Law 12. What is needed initially is a clause saying that "Releasing the ball forward in order to effect a punt or drop-kick is not a knock-on or throw forward."

I think this solves the other problems.
1, 2. If the referee accepts that it was a genuine attempt at a punt or drop-kick, there is no knock-on or throw forward even if the player does not manage to kick the ball. It would not matter if this was due to incompetence, a slip, or a tackle.

a, b. The player did not "release" the ball. The referee will not judge it to be a valid attempt to kick. Knock-on unless he catches it.

Simon Thomas
05-09-12, 10:09
Sorry Robbie but I do not share others concern over this and think you are "making a mountain out of a molehill.

Davet
05-09-12, 10:09
It only becomes an issue if the kick fails to connect, or if the ball is dropped and an attempt is made to turn it into a kick.

The latter has - in my experience - always been greeted with a wry smile and a comment of "nice try, but you dropped it. Knock on"

The former usually has other stuff going on, a tackle generally, and is usually treated as lost in contact, and a knock on awarded unless advantage or other considerations apply.

Sometimes we agonise over the number of angels on a pinhead too much instead of simply making a decision.

Robert Burns
05-09-12, 10:09
You can only punt or drop-kick if you release the ball forward, and strictly speaking that is contrary to Law 12. What is needed initially is a clause saying that "Releasing the ball forward in order to effect a punt or drop-kick is not a knock-on or throw forward."

I think this solves the other problems.
1, 2. If the referee accepts that it was a genuine attempt at a punt or drop-kick, there is no knock-on or throw forward even if the player does not manage to kick the ball. It would not matter if this was due to incompetence, a slip, or a tackle.

a, b. The player did not "release" the ball. The refere. will not judge it to be a valid attempt to kick. Knock-on unless he catches it.

I would agree with that,


Sorry Robbie but I do not share others concern over this and think you are "making a mountain out of a molehill.


It only becomes an issue if the kick fails to connect, or if the ball is dropped and an attempt is made to turn it into a kick.

The latter has - in my experience - always been greeted with a wry smile and a comment of "nice try, but you dropped it. Knock on"

The former usually has other stuff going on, a tackle generally, and is usually treated as lost in contact, and a knock on awarded unless advantage or other considerations apply.

Sometimes we agonise over the number of angels on a pinhead too much instead of simply making a decision.

No mountain, it's not an issue in my games, I do as Davet says, however would the game have less stoppages if what OB.. says were introduced?

What if the IRB stated that if the ball is lost forward and kicked it is not a knock on as it has not touched the ground or another player before being played?

It's just a question of ensuring we all do the same thing, there are a number of laws where we all have slightly different interpretations, and because the law is not clear, we all apply it slightly different. From past experience written Law clarifications have fixed this.

It's just a clean up issue in my view.

Davet
05-09-12, 10:09
What if the IRB stated that if the ball is lost forward and kicked it is not a knock on as it has not touched the ground or another player before being played?

Law does not say before it is "played by the original player", but rather "before the original player can catch it", if he hoofs it after dropping it then he is pretty much guaranteed not to catch it. If he actually kicked the ball on the volley straight back into his own hands then fine.... but I've never seen it done.

Robert Burns
05-09-12, 10:09
But we have seen it when a player loses the ball forward and gets to it in time to tap it back to a team mate. Could technically be a knock on, but could be play on too.

As I say, just a clean up.

Davet
05-09-12, 10:09
But we have seen it when a player loses the ball forward and gets to it in time to tap it back to a team mate. Could technically be a knock on, but could be play on too.

No. it's a knock on. Tapping back is not catching.

Robert Burns
05-09-12, 10:09
Lots of people would play on, at elite & grassroots levels.

Davet
05-09-12, 11:09
Really - why?

It's the sort of thing that get the ref a bollocking from the crowd - ignoring clear and well known Law may keep the game flowing, but it sure irritates the opposition.

ctrainor
05-09-12, 17:09
I think that is an excellent clarification request Robbie, I hope it gets put forward.
Very clear waht we want.
Just to add to the scenario what if a player was really juggling wioth the ball trying to gain clear possesion but doesn't then kicks it, now that would look wrong if we said play on

Robert Burns
06-09-12, 02:09
Thank you.

OB..
28-09-12, 12:09
Following the discussion in the George North thread (judging if the ball hit the hands/arms last) I suggest the following re-write, which also incorporates my view that the law currently allows too much latitude:

A knock-on may occur when:
(i) a player attempts to catch the ball and fails, or
(ii) a player loses possession of the ball, or
(iii) a player hits the ball with hand or arm, or
(iv) the ball hits a player's hand or arm.

This is a knock-on if the ball goes forward and
(a) out of the player's reach, or
(b) hits the ground or another player before the player catches it.

Exceptions: (1) it is not a knock-on if the ball is pulled out of a player's possession by an opponent.
(2) A charge down is not a knock-on. A charge down occurs when a player in the immediate vicinity of a kicker attempts to block the kick.

Dickie E
28-09-12, 12:09
A knock-on may occur when:
(i) a player attempts to catch the ball and fails, or



This condition is achieved even if the player doesn't touch the ball or it hits his leg, etc

Davet
28-09-12, 12:09
I think DickieE has got you there!

OB..
28-09-12, 12:09
I think DickieE has got you there!You don't catch the ball with your leg, but I agree I need to insert something like "makes contact with hands or arms"

Amended version: (i) a player attempts to catch the ball, making contact with hand or arm, orI think the subsequent requirements mean I do not need to specify failure.

andyscott
28-09-12, 13:09
I have given a scrum for a lost forward, when it is fumbled and "kicked" but not under control. ;)

OB..
28-09-12, 13:09
I have given a scrum for a lost forward, when it is fumbled and "kicked" but not under control. ;)
I'll add another exception:

(3) It is not a knock-on if the ball is released forward in order to effect a punt or drop kick.
I claim "released" implies a deliberate act, not a fumble, and also disallows throwing the ball up over an opponent and then kicking it before it lands.

Robert Burns
28-09-12, 15:09
OB..

Are you claiming, that if a player tries intentionally to kick, but for whatever reason the kick fails (tackled, or poor release) that we do not have a knock on?

OB..
28-09-12, 15:09
OB..

Are you claiming, that if a player tries intentionally to kick, but for whatever reason the kick fails (tackled, or poor release) that we do not have a knock on?Yes.

I think it downright ridiculous to say that it is legal for a player to release the ball forward for a kick, but then say that an opponent can make that illegal after he has released.

I think the case where a player fails to make contact of any sort entirely through his own fault is essentially limited to very young age groups. Moreover it is hard to see how a player can gain any advantage from missing, so it is not a concern.

crossref
28-09-12, 15:09
my pragmatic view is that
- if you release the ball to kick it, and are tackled before the kick connects, it's not a knock on
- if you release the ball to kick it, but simply miss the kick (perhaps you slip), it is a knock on (assuming it goes forward)

Davet
28-09-12, 16:09
I think the case where a player fails to make contact of any sort entirely through his own fault is essentially limited to very young age groups.

You haven't seen me kick.

Or you are now so ancient that "very young" takes on a whole new meaning! :-)

OB..
28-09-12, 16:09
my pragmatic view is that
- if you release the ball to kick it, and are tackled before the kick connects, it's not a knock on
- if you release the ball to kick it, but simply miss the kick (perhaps you slip), it is a knock on (assuming it goes forward)
?

I do think the law ought to specifically allow for the release forward, and that will surely mean this issue has to be addressed.

crossref
28-09-12, 17:09
I don't know.
- people missing the kick entirely is pretty rare, so it's probably almost moot. when it does happen I don't thnk the knock-on call will be a pointof conflict.

- people getting tackled just as they make to kick is more common, but not very. Does there need to be rule? sometimes it will look to everyone like a knock on. Sometimes it might be very confusing and the ref just makes a judgment

Davet
28-09-12, 17:09
Losing the ball in contact (unless it's physically knocked from your grasp by an opponent) is a knock on, so don't see much problem with simply calling the ball lost forward in the tackle - clearly if the tackle was too late it would be a PK anyway.

OB..
28-09-12, 17:09
- people getting tackled just as they make to kick is more common, but not very. Does there need to be rule?
From my point of view, yes, very definitely. It offends me to see a knock-on given in that situation.

Womble
28-09-12, 17:09
From my point of view, yes, very definitely. It offends me to see a knock-on given in that situation.

Agree totally

Robert Burns
29-09-12, 00:09
So change should say:

The rugbyrefs.com members seek clarification of Law 12 in relation to the ball being knocked on.

Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

1, We believe that when a player carries out a drop kick it is accepted that the ball being released forward and touching the ground is not a knock on or a throw forward, even if it travels forward. If this player is tackled after they have released the ball, but before they kick so that the ball is no longer under control, is this considered a knock on?

2, If a player punts the ball forward, the ball will have been released forward before the kick takes place. This is not classed as a knock on or throw forward. If this player is tackled after they have released the ball, but before they kick, and the ball is no longer under control, is this considered a knock on?

3, If a player accidentally loses control of the ball, and the ball travels forward, but the player manages to kick the ball forward with their foot deliberately before the ball touches the ground or any other player, is this a knock on?

4, If a player accidentally loses control of the ball, and the ball travels forward, but the player manages to kick the ball forward with their foot accidentally before the ball touches the ground or any other player, is this a knock on?

End of clarification request.