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Account Deleted
19-11-04, 20:11
In the Wales V SA game just after the start Wales take the ball out of play. The Touch Judge is clearly seen kicking the ball to the South African side on the way it touches a Welsh player. The South Africans take a quick throw and a couple of phases later score.

In my book the Quick throw was illegal (Law 19.2 (d) refers.

Now what bothers me most is that the Touch Judge knew that he had touched the ball. So surely he should have made the ref aware that a quick throw was not an option. I'm not accusing the TJ of cheating, despite the fact that he kicked the ball towards the South African. But, whilst accepting thart the ref may have been unsighted the TJ must have known that the quick throw was not on as he himself touched it!

Pablo
19-11-04, 23:11
Yes, yes and yes. Didn't see the incident in question, but everything you say makes sense. TJ's responsibility to ALERT the ref, but it's up to the ref to actually heed what the TJ says.

Deeps
20-11-04, 01:11
Unless it has changed, the TJ should have the flag up for touch as normal but should not indicate which side has the put in until he is satisfied that the prescribed conditions for a quick throw in no longer exist. So the hint to the referee should be the position of the spare arm; is it by the TJ's side or horizontal and pointing?

Account Deleted
21-11-04, 17:11
Unless it has changed, the TJ should have the flag up for touch as normal but should not indicate which side has the put in until he is satisfied that the prescribed conditions for a quick throw in no longer exist. So the hint to the referee should be the position of the spare arm; is it by the TJ's side or horizontal and pointing?

Law 6.B.5 (C) Disagrees with you. It states
When the ball or the ball-carrier has gone into touch, the touch-judge must stand at the place of the throw in and point to the team entitled to throw in.

No reference to indicating just touch. After all how would the ref know if the correct side had taken a quick throw if the TJ does not tell him whos throw it is?

Exeption 3 COvers the TJ keeping the signal if the quick throw is not valid!

PeterTC
21-11-04, 18:11
Not putting your arm is the method still, I believe, for indicating when/when not a quick throw can be taken. While it is not in law, it is what TJs are taught to do. The flag goes up to indicate the ball is in touch, and the arm then goes up when a quick throw is no longer an option. This way, the referee can tell at any point whether the quick throw is still an option.

Davet
22-11-04, 00:11
Whilst PeterTC is right - TJs are taught not to indicate the throwing side until the opportunity for a quick throw had passed - this is not what the Law says. 6B.5.C. is clear. The TJ indicates the side to throw in. If the side take a quick throw when one is not available then the TJ simply keeps his flag raised after the throw, rather than lowering it - see 6B.5.d Exception 3.

Which seems a perfectly good way of managing the situation. If the Law is followed the the TJ indicates the side whose throw it is immediately - so neither players nor ref are in any doubt, and if a throw is taken incorrectly (see exceptions 1 and 2 as well) the signal is also very clear; so why has this alternative practice arisen?

PeterTC
22-11-04, 01:11
My guess, if I had to take one is this.

The current system allows the referee to immediately disallow a quick throw if the TJ has his arm out, as he is indicating that it is not allowed. If the arm isn't out, the referee must assume all is well and good and be prepared for the next phase of play.

If however the TJ always stuck his arm out, the referee would have to firstly wait to see if the TJ lowered his flag to see if the quick throw is allowed. Also, it gives rise to the possible situation of a quick throw in catching the TJ unawares, thus keeping his flag up and arm out, meaning the referee will bring it back, whereas the TJ was merely slightly behind. At least if the TJ is standing there, no arm out, the referee can guess the TJ has not noticed the quick throw.

That's what I think is the possible idea anyway.

OB..
22-11-04, 01:11
I agree with PeterTC on what TJs are asked to do. 6.B.5 (c) does not say the TJ has to point immediately, and I presume the practice is designed to take advantage of that for the benefit of the referee.

Most of the time it will be clear whose throw-in it is. I can imagine a situation where the ball may have been touched in flight, but that is uncommon.

I would also assume that the practice has proved workable, otherwise they would have dropped it.

Deeps
23-11-04, 17:11
I think the information came originally from one of those RFU pamphletts on 'How to be a Touch Judge'. I can't find it just now but have comprehensive notes on being a TJ including this and triangulation etc. And, having touched judged on and off for years, I believe it to be good practice.