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Robert Burns
05-12-04, 19:12
So, should there have been a penalty try at the end?

Personally I think that it should have been, but wasn't because of Matt Dawsons peristant whinging.

Had he got on with plaqying the game, it probably would have been and Wasps may have won.

Waynepipmad
05-12-04, 21:12
tricky call, although I didn't think the ref should have told Johnson that the next offence would be a penalty try, would anyone do that or just award the try??
Had a scenario yesterday where I should have sent off a player for punching, but as the opposition all told me what I had to do (as they had all game) I didn't! not strictly `professional' of me, but they annoyed me!!

threegatesexpress
05-12-04, 22:12
Tough call, but sat in my armchair - on the edge of the seat - I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have given a penalty try, mainly because it never looked like Wasps would "probably have scored a try".

Leicester defended well, but the foul play slowed up recycling rather than a probable try. I think I would have used the yellow card though, even in the dying seconds of the game, although I wonder if the time taken to do that would have been counter-productive for Wasps' momentum.

I think that another possibly controversial call might have been Van Guisbergen's knock-on in front of his posts a couple of minutes earlier. Leicester took a drop-goal from the resultant scrum, and widened the gap to 6 points.

Neverthless, I must say that Nigel Williams had a great game.

Pablo
06-12-04, 11:12
Obviously as a die-hard Waspie I was gutted. I have to disagree with Jim though - I think Williams had a shocker. He had no control over the constant handbagging that was going on off the ball (admittedly, from both teams). His understanding of scrum mechanics baffled me - on every Wasps put-in, the scrum popped up, which never happened on Leicester's put-ins. Instead of penalising Leicester, who were quite obviously illegally disrupting the scrum on Wasps put-in, he penalised Wasps. He was very poor at cracking down on blocking of players chasing kicks, in particular Harry Ellis got away with it far too often.

Wasps were twice denied a penalty try in the dying minutes. In the first incident, a Leicester player (Healey, I think) came into the tackle zone from the wrong side as a Wasp (van Gisbergen?) was reaching for the tryline and fly hacked the ball out of his hands. Williams called a knock-on, which, if he was unsighted I can accept as an honest mistake. However, the mass pile-up on Leicester's line involved Leicester being penalised four times for ruck offences in a span of about 90 seconds. At the very least, a yellow card should have been shown, but I think Wasps should have been awarded a PT.


Leicester defended well, but the foul play slowed up recycling rather than a probable try

And if Wasps had been permitted to recycle as quickly as they wanted, the Leicester defence would have been less organised, making a try more likely. Probable try scoring opportunity? Yup!

My feeling as I left the ground was that the referee had chickened out of making a match-deciding decision and several Tigers fans agreed with me. The fact that the Leicester players' and supporters' reaction was one of relief rather than satisfaction only serves to reinforce that opinion.

My only hope is that Wasps travel up to Welford Road next week with such a massive sense of misjustice that they beat the Tigers. It promises to be a cracking game.

OB..
06-12-04, 12:12
Had a scenario yesterday where I should have sent off a player for punching, but as the opposition all told me what I had to do (as they had all game) I didn't! not strictly `professional' of me, but they annoyed me!!You could have sent the player off, and then reversed the penalty for "dissent"! If they had indeed been doing it all game, had you also been trying to stop them? If not, you were in part the architect of your own dilemma.

(I know that is an ususual definition of dissent, but if you are going to invent your own laws, do it properly ;) )

As to Nigel Williams, my impressions at the time were the same as threegatedexpress, not Pablo.


And if Wasps had been permitted to recycle as quickly as they wanted, the Leicester defence would have been less organised, making a try more likely. Probable try scoring opportunity? Yup!Nope.

"more likely" is not the same as "probable". The latter seems to be defined as "beyond reasonable doubt" rather than simply "more likely than not". The penalty is harsh, so the probability ought to be strong.

A yellow card was definitely an option, and one I was expecting.

Pablo
06-12-04, 13:12
"more likely" is not the same as "probable". The latter seems to be defined as "beyond reasonable doubt" rather than simply "more likely than not". The penalty is harsh, so the probability ought to be strong.

A yellow card was definitely an option, and one I was expecting.

OK, I'll couch it in your terms then. If there had been no Leicester infringements at the ruck, Wasps would have had quick ball. Would a disorganised Leicester defence have kept Wasps out in the face of quick recycling? No chance! Every one of those Leicester offences bought their defence enough time to rearrange themselves. There is absolutely no reasonable doubt that Wasps would have scored if Leicester had not offended four times. Penalty try.

threegatesexpress
06-12-04, 14:12
Pablo, I know you'll be impossible to convince on this one, but as an impartial observer, I have to say that Wasps never looked like they were probably going to score a try. The Leicester defence was like a brick wall...every time Wasps launched at it, they were stopped in their tracks.

Wasps quite rightly earned a fantastic reputation for brick wall defence inside the 22, but Leicester gave the masterclass at the end of this game.

Can't wait for the rerun next week. Anyone know who's in the hot-seat?

Pablo
06-12-04, 16:12
Pablo, I know you'll be impossible to convince on this one,

You think? :D :rolleyes:



but as an impartial observer, I have to say that Wasps never looked like they were probably going to score a try. The Leicester defence was like a brick wall...every time Wasps launched at it, they were stopped in their tracks.

Obviously since you had the TV feed and I was in the stands, we saw different angles of the game. Maybe you're right - but it's academic now. It's just that this game reminded me of what it was like in the latter stages of the Melville era when we would come close and lose week in, week out. I like winning, damnit!



Anyone know who's in the hot-seat?

Not announced for another couple of days.

Anyway, Varsity Match tomorrow. Relying on a solid Cambridge victory to cheer me up :D

OB..
06-12-04, 16:12
I am a (part-time) Wasps supporter, but I agree with TGE. Unfortunately.

However, like you, I am hoping for a Light Blue victory tomorrow.

threegatesexpress
06-12-04, 16:12
C'mon Oxford !

:p

Pablo
06-12-04, 17:12
C'mon Oxford !

:p

Now you're just stirring up trouble, aren't you? :rolleyes: :eek:

Robert Burns
07-12-04, 09:12
Gdbo

Come on the light blues

:)

threegatesexpress
07-12-04, 23:12
Pablo, is that referee's intuition spotting the trouble maker?

Sounds like it was a good match...apart from the result. Hope you enjoyed your day anyway. My son was watching from amongst the throng of school children in the south stand, and he had a great time.

Meanwhile...back to the thread. I see that Alain Rolland has the duties for the return fixture this weekend.

Pablo
08-12-04, 00:12
Pablo, is that referee's intuition spotting the trouble maker?

Meh. It's just a knack I have. ;)


Sounds like it was a good match...apart from the result. Hope you enjoyed your day anyway. My son was watching from amongst the throng of school children in the south stand, and he had a great time.

The match was good in parts. It suffered a bit as a spectacle from both teams' defences being so good that neither side looked like scoring for most of the game. That said, Oxford did look the better side and thoroughly deserved their win, even if the result wasn't to my liking :mad: . Actually, I thought the Under 21s match was a better game of rugby. But a grand day out nevertheless, and I got to catch up with a few friends from my students days, so no complaints from me.


Meanwhile...back to the thread. I see that Alain Rolland has the duties for the return fixture this weekend.

That's good news. Rolland is, IMO, an excellent ref. He certainly made a fantastic job of the 2004 Heineken Cup Final :D