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L'irlandais
07-06-13, 22:06
Hello,

Thought we needed a discussion on the Junior World Championship that wasn't centered around criticism of the man in the middle. That and the fact Ireland have gotten off to another cracking start just like last year (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?14834-Junior-World-Championship-2012-warning-spoilers-included).
(God, some great Ireland Senior squads in the making, or what? Here's looking forward to a new world order in XV :shrug:)

Follow the action on iRB Junior World Championship #2013 (http://www.irb.com/jwc/index.html), including full match replays.

Browner
08-06-13, 02:06
Will this mean they'll stop enticing young foriegn Talent into their have a 'free house & play for us in the future scheme' ?

L'irlandais
09-06-13, 14:06
Hullo,
Doubt it, to be honest. Like you say, the way around restrictions in place in Ireland, is to have overseas players in the country for a number of years (3?) then they become eligible to play for the National Squad.
Source : IRFU policy (http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php) One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
Unfortunately rules are made to be broken, Rugby is no exception.The IRFU has done well out of bringing in foreign talent for the youngsters to learn from ; so no suggestion that they are about to put a complete stop to the practice. Overseas players also mentor young players in their clubs even if they never make the National team.

Mentors / Students
Nathan Hines (http://www.espnscrum.com/scotland/rugby/player/13460.html) / Devin Toner (http://www.irishrugby.ie/squads/index.php?player=15302&includeref=dynamic)
Isa Nacewa (http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/player/14362.html) / Rob Kearney (http://www.irishrugby.ie/squads/index.php?player=9017&includeref=dynamic)
Rocky Elsom (http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/player/14879.html) / Sean O'Brien (http://www.irishrugby.ie/squads/index.php?player=20048&includeref=dynamic) to name but a few...(Don't think England are genuinely in a position "to throw stones" on that front, in any case :

Stuart Lancaster's decision to pick New Zealand-born Thomas Waldrom
Source : Mail On-line (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2268818/Six-Nations-2013-Martin-Corry-Imports-damage-Engliand-rugby.html#ixzz2ViyjgJxN)
:shrug: That and now we've gotten a new (overseas) coach I rather suspect another grand Slam for Ireland in the very near future.)

SimonSmith
10-06-13, 00:06
Not on the basis of last night's utter utter shambles against the USA.

L'irlandais
10-06-13, 19:06
Hi,
In fairness Simon, the team that faced USA included 5 uncapped players (started from the bench). That and they still won, so not entirely a shambles.

This discussion, on the other-hand, is about our under 20 squad (http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/29324.php) creating (for the second year running) an upset in their opening JWC match. That certainly augers well for these young guns 3 or 4 years down the road against the same (former-U20) opposition.
Worth under-lining that in the last 6 Nations, England had the most players (5 of them) in their squad qualified on the residency ruling, Ireland was the only squad that didn't have any players included on the basis of residency ; so Browner's comment is a bit like the sooty pot calling the shiny kettle black.

Yes Munster coaxed CJ Stander to join on a two year contract following his outstanding performance at last year's JWC. He is big enough to decide for himself if that arrangement suits him.

OB..
10-06-13, 19:06
That certainly augers well [...]Screwed them?! :pepper::biggrin:

SimonSmith
11-06-13, 00:06
Hi,
In fairness Simon, the team that faced USA included 5 uncapped players (started from the bench). That and they still won, so not entirely a shambles.

This discussion, on the other-hand, is about our under 20 squad (http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/29324.php) creating (for the second year running) an upset in their opening JWC match. That certainly augers well for these young guns 3 or 4 years down the road against the same (former-U20) opposition.
Worth under-lining that in the last 6 Nations, England had the most players (5 of them) in their squad qualified on the residency ruling, Ireland was the only squad that didn't have any players included on the basis of residency ; so Browner's comment is a bit like the sooty pot calling the shiny kettle black.

Yes Munster coaxed CJ Stander to join on a two year contract following his outstanding performance at last year's JWC. He is big enough to decide for himself if that arrangement suits him.

I watched that game.

Shambles is generous, to the players and to the referee. Promote the U20 as soon as you can.

L'irlandais
11-06-13, 10:06
Fine Simon,
But that's still the closest the US Eagles have come to beating Ireland (http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;opposition=11;team=3;template=r esults;type=team;view=results) in 8 matches.
In my book a shambolic win has to be better than (what would have been) a historic loss to the USA.

Alot of Ireland's starting XV are leaving over the next couple of seasons, so the U20s will be stepping up to the mark soon enough.

ps. I suspect Canada will fancy their chances of an elusive first win over Ireland (http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;opposition=25;team=3;template=r esults;type=team;view=results) at next Saturday's match (http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/match_centre.php?section=overview&fixid=182746)
They've enjoyed a good run against USA (http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;opposition=11;team=25;template= results;type=team;view=results) since their 2009 defeat.

ddjamo
11-06-13, 12:06
Hi,
In fairness Simon, the team that faced USA included 5 uncapped players (started from the bench).

nobody required them to send uncapped players. they sent their side to represent their country and the usa was very hard done by the ref. might as well had clancey.

Browner
11-06-13, 13:06
Browner's comment is a bit like the sooty pot calling the shiny kettle black.



No, cos Browner doesn't support Nation switching ............ in many ways Football has a better example - I'd have players Register their Nationality at 16 & stick with it. Modern Pro players (or their union) can afford air fare, and the decision to play abroad must be a 'seriously considered' one, that might not pan out for a player.

Armitage Bros chose € & lifestyle v England & Lions possibilities.

3 yrs residency stinks !

OB..
11-06-13, 14:06
Armitage Bros chose € & lifestyle v England & Lions possibilities.Relevance? Having played for England, they cannot play for any other nation.

Browner
11-06-13, 14:06
Relevance? Having played for England, they cannot play for any other nation.

Relevance was ........ you make a choice, you stick with it.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/8778699/Scotland-targeting-Highlanders-flanker-Hardie
Jockish ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hardie

L'irlandais
11-06-13, 15:06
nobody required them to send uncapped players. they sent their side to represent their country and the usa was very hard done by the ref. might as well had clancey.Don't know who the match officals were, do you?

Most of our first choice players were either on Lions duty (http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/12053.php#.UbcrkBZOIpE), injured, retired or involved in one or other of the tours :
So choice didn't really come into it, it was more of a juggle ; USA (28 players), a squad in Georgia (26) (http://www.irishrugby.ie/provincial/news/29233.php), the U20's (http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/12000.php#.UbcthRZOIpE) at the JWC (23) includes alot of Academy players, those with the B&I Lions (10) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22730019) mentioned above & Rory Best (http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/29232.php). Ronan O'Gara has retired, Marcus Horan too. Not to mention a lengthty injury list late in the season.
Peter Stringer remains with Bath, and so on... That's close on 100 players playing Rugby at the Top of their age-groups around the globe just now. So while we sent the best squad available to the States, it wasn't anything like a first choice side that would be in the match-day 22 for one of the iRB Top-10-tier Nations (http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html).

OB..
11-06-13, 15:06
Relevance was ........ you make a choice, you stick with it.They don't have a choice. They can only play for England. Are you saying that once having chosen a nationality they cannot play in another country?

Davet
11-06-13, 16:06
Not sure what you mean by choosing a nationality?

It is perfectly possible to chose to become a citizen of Country A, and still play rugby for the Country of your birth. Or a Third Country where your grandparent was from.

Once you've satisfied the rules, and played for Senior or Next Senior team THEN your rugby future is hitched to that nation.

I have suggested previously that a better solution would be to play for a country for which your passport entitles you play, whilst retaining the fix after playing for Senior or Next Senior side.

If you want to play for a country you should need to have a passport for that country. A UK passport would suffice for Eng Sco Wales and Ireland (seeing as how they accept Ulstermen). The normal rules on what entitles one to a passport would be followed.

Browner
11-06-13, 20:06
I'm saying that Hardie, having played for NZ U19's shouldn't get the option/be able to play for Scotland. He made his international choice and should be made to stick with it, end of, full stop.

I know what the rules say DaveT, I just happen to think they aren't sensible, and you seem to agree - albeit our opinions on the solutions remain different.

OB.... No i'm not , I would like to see - that once you've chosen your nationality at U16 [the first Age grade of international competition] then that's it, go 'work/play' in another country if that's choice but don't expect to play for any other national team other than the one you selected at U16.

L'irlandais
12-06-13, 19:06
Meanwhile back in France ; JWC 2013 disciplinary hearing decisions (http://www.irb.com/jwc/news/newsid=2067305.html#jwc+2013+disciplinary+hearing+ decisions), so far :

1... a one match suspension. (for stamping)
2. The Player is suspended from taking part in the game of rugby for a period of 6 weeks: (for a dangerous tackle)
3. & two match suspension (for another dangerous tackle)

L'irlandais
14-06-13, 19:06
Well,
We're getting to the business end of the JWC now. Ireland against the run of play stuck it up to the U20 Blacks. While both England & Wales thru' to the semis after Day 3. So Ireland will have to slug it out with France first, one of these 2 teams will face the winner of Argentina v Australia for 5th place.

Not much joy for the US Eagles, England run in 17 tries (http://www.irb.com/jwc/news/newsid=2067517.html#jwc+2013+day+three+statistics) against them. :holysheep: Shame to see Ireland's effort come to naught, because of a record win for England.
Sort it out America! A certain try spoiled by Eagle's Captain's poor handling. The odd tackle might help too.:pepper:

Day 1 South Africa 97-0 USA
Day 2 France 45-3 USA (http://www.irb.com/jwc/video/index.html)
Day 3 England 109 - 0 US Eagles
Going out to score tries is all very well, preventing your opposition from scoring is the harder part of the game. :shrug:

Browner
14-06-13, 20:06
Shame to see Ireland's effort come to naught, because of a record win for England. Sort it out America!
.

Did USA throw the game?.......You'd have thought with x3 Dublin based players they might've wanted to do their adopted country a favour

O'Damn, O'Bugger & O'CrikeyWhereAreMyDefendersBuggeringOffToo? :biggrin:

L'irlandais
14-06-13, 20:06
Hullo,
I'm not suggesting they threw the game. However after a poor opening preformance, in the post match interview, one of their players suggested that their game plan was to run in tries to create a spectacle for their fans to enjoy. I just felt they may have a few other issues to resolve before they consider running in several tries against any of RSA, France or England. They have 2 games left to turn things around, otherwise they'll be relegated to the World Junior Trophy next year. :(

Browner
14-06-13, 21:06
Hullo,
I'm not suggesting they threw the game. However after a poor opening preformance, in the post match interview, one of their players suggested that their game plan was to run in tries to create a spectacle for their fans to enjoy. I just felt they may have a few other issues to resolve before they consider running in several tries against any of RSA, France or England. They have 2 games left to turn things around, otherwise they'll be relegated to the World Junior Trophy next year. :(

Hey, for what it's worth .... I thought Ireland were always up against it .... Australia being a more difficult proposition than France were for England

SimonSmith
14-06-13, 21:06
Hullo,
I'm not suggesting they threw the game. However after a poor opening preformance, in the post match interview, one of their players suggested that their game plan was to run in tries to create a spectacle for their fans to enjoy. I just felt they may have a few other issues to resolve before they consider running in several tries against any of RSA, France or England. They have 2 games left to turn things around, otherwise they'll be relegated to the World Junior Trophy next year. :(

I'm probably wrong, but I'm going to say it anyway.

There is a growing emphasis over on 7s; to the degree that 15s could very soon left in its wake.

Why? Easy to televise, lots of scores, and the games are over quickish, thereby appealing to US tv audiences. A lot of emphasis on College 7s, where a lot of these players have come from. The concept of dogging it out in defense is at risk of getting lost over here because of the reliance on "the spectacle"

Cue DAveT's opinion on a a 50 yard rolling maul being a spectacle - with which I agree. But it won't get air time.

Mark my words (yes, I'm entering Grumpy Old Man mode) unless the emphasis on 15s is reinforced, the USa will be admitting that it has no aspirations to be a serious player in that game and will be focusing on rugby-lite

Phil E
14-06-13, 21:06
Mark my words (yes, I'm entering Grumpy Old Man mode) unless the emphasis on 15s is reinforced, the USa will be admitting that it has no aspirations to be a serious player in that game and will be focusing on rugby-lite

So basically what your saying is.......the USA can't be a big fish in the big pond, so they are going to try and be the big fish in the little puddle? :chin:

SimonSmith
14-06-13, 22:06
I think they'll settle for $$ share in the USA, hoping that......

Yeah, you're right

FlipFlop
15-06-13, 14:06
Not just in the US either. Lots of countries are now concentrating more on 7s, as it is now an olympic sport, and that is where the funding is.

Browner
15-06-13, 18:06
I'm saying that Hardie, having played for NZ U19's shouldn't get the option/be able to play for Scotland. He made his international choice and should be made to stick with it, end of, full stop.

I know what the rules say DaveT, I just happen to think they aren't sensible, and you seem to agree - albeit our opinions on the solutions remain different.

OB.... No i'm not , I would like to see - that once you've chosen your nationality at U16 [the first Age grade of international competition] then that's it, go 'work/play' in another country if that's choice but don't expect to play for any other national team other than the one you selected at U16.

Still on my soap box............ Noa_Nakaitaci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa_Nakaitaci) captain's Fiji Schoolboys, now playing for france ........... booooooooooo !

L'irlandais
15-06-13, 21:06
Not just in the US either. Lots of countries are now concentrating more on 7s, as it is now an olympic sport, and that is where the funding is.
There will probably be a before Rio 2016 Olympics and and after (http://www.irb.com/aboutirb/olympics/index.html), in terms of the money USA & others are prepared to chuck at winning more medals.

Rugby page on the Official website of the Olympic Movement (http://www.olympic.org/rugby)

Sevens is fast gaining in popularity elsewhere :
The HSBC Sevens World Series (http://www.irbsevens.com/standings.html), previously known as the IRB Sevens World Series, consists of nine tournaments held around the world between October and May.

Rugby World Cup Sevens 2013 (http://www.rwcsevens.com/) will be held in Moscow, Russia between 28-30 June.

My reffing career will be over before it's begun if Sevens takes over, no way I'm fit enough for that Sport.

L'irlandais
16-06-13, 12:06
Ireland brought their international season (http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/29386.php) to a close with a satisfying 40-14 win over Canada on Saturday night. :clap:

Blindpugh
17-06-13, 16:06
On tour with group of Welsh under 20 parents watching our son's play in IRB Junior World Cup in France. Enjoying French hospitality and meeting parents and supporters of other teams.

Brutal game against the Argies on Thursday but our conditioning, defence and Welsh flair saw us through. Everyone sympathises with Ireland and Argentina who lost out on 4th place due to cricket score for England vs USA but that was the luck of the draw.

USA are taking 7s seriously because of inclusion in Olympics but their under 20s were completely out of their depth and US should be putting systems in place to develop future players.

The referees have been consistent and very strict on the tip tackle and sealing off. My main observation is that they are not managing the scrum. Not the engagement, collapsed scrums or resets (because there have been very few) but allowing scrum to wheel and then making scrum half put the ball in?!

I have been impressed with Stu Berry (SA) Luke Pearce (ENG), Ginger Scottish Ref and Ian Davies (WAL).

In response to Browner my son is playing in tournament and is dual qualified (but considers himself 100% Welsh). From 8 years of age he has always wanted to be a professional rugby player and like majority of parents we have had to support him by being a taxi service as well as spending his inheritance!

I checked out his situation with Sports Lawyer last year and he confirmed that IRB ruling is that if he played against France under 20s he was only eligible to play for Wales because under 20's are nominated as their second team. He didn't play so if he wanted he could qualify for another country on residency rule or via his mother (God forbid)!

I do not agree with current eligibility criteria but until IRB changes rule from 2nd XV to under 20 national team, players will be allowed to exercise their rights.

Looking forward to Tuesday and two great semi finals in Vannes. Come on*Pays de Galles!:wales::clap::biggrin:

L'irlandais
18-06-13, 15:06
Nice one Blindpugh. Com'on Wales :wales:
Order of the games this evening :
18:00 Argentina - Australia (for a berth in 7th place play-off)
18:15 South Africa - Wales (for a place in the final)
20:15 Ireland - France (for a berth in 5th place play-off)
20:45 New Zealand - England (for a place in the final)
Elsewhere this week :
JWC 2013 Appeal hearing decision (http://www.irb.com/jwc/news/newsid=2067611.html#jwc+2013+appeal+hearing+decisi on)
Luan de Bruin (South Africa) – Appeal Hearing Outcome


The Appeal Officer also noted that South Africa #4 was not cited.
In relation to the appeal against the finding of foul play, the Appeal Officer concluded that a combination of the actions of South African players numbers 3 and 4 caused England number 12 to be lifted, tipped and dropped to the ground...
Accordingly the sanction was reduced from four matches to one match. Having already served this one match suspension on 13 June, Luan de Bruin is free to play in his side's next match of the tournament on 18 June. No need to encourage players to appeal iRB decisions from such a Young age. :shrug:
Since the #4 was also guilty of the tip tackle, why not apply the same punishment (that given to #3) to the lock. With 2 players out for the next 3 games, instead of one, South Africa would (probaly) never again appeal an iRB decision! (Given that coaches (probaly) catch-on quicker than most Underage players.)

ps. Suggested revised decision : Not only is the decision of foul play upheld against your #3, but also your #4 is banned for X matches for his part in the foul play. (2 match ban each, if you wish to split hairs.) Thanks to the RSA coaching staff for drawing our attention to the other culprit's actions. Surely between them two burly forwards could have ensured that White#12 was safely accompanied to ground? (More easily than 1 forward on his lonesome.) The iRB message is (or seems to me to be) that neither player is responsible for the safety of the upended player. Nice one!

Browner
18-06-13, 21:06
Congrats to the Taffs ....brilliant result

can england hold on to join them ?? baby Blacks are upping their game ...................... c'mon chariots !:eng:

FlipFlop
18-06-13, 21:06
Looks like they should do it.....

fingers crossed...

Browner
18-06-13, 21:06
Wow, backs to the wall,,,,,,,,, NZ were pressing hard, but it was an excellent victory

sunday 5.30pm England v Wales - :eng: wonder if Moriarty's dad will be supporting red or white ?

i'm already imagining the verbals in the first maul !!!!

Browner
19-06-13, 09:06
In response to Browner my son is playing in tournament and is dual qualified (but considers himself 100% Welsh). From 8 years of age he has always wanted to be a professional rugby player and like majority of parents we have had to support him by being a taxi service as well as spending his inheritance!

I checked out his situation with Sports Lawyer last year and he confirmed that IRB ruling is that if he played against France under 20s he was only eligible to play for Wales because under 20's are nominated as their second team. He didn't play so if he wanted he could qualify for another country on residency rule or via his mother (God forbid)!

I do not agree with current eligibility criteria but until IRB changes rule from 2nd XV to under 20 national team, players will be allowed to exercise their rights.

Looking forward to Tuesday and two great semi finals in Vannes. Come on*Pays de Galles!:wales::clap::biggrin:

Hi BlindPugh
First off, huge congratulations to you all for the excellent semi-final result v the Boks, next Sunday will be a memorable day for sure. I’mwell aware that such a talented son will have both a supporting & hugely sacrificingfamily throng.

It was interesting to hear that despite considering himself100% Welsh, he/you deliberately decided not to tie to Wales permanently for theFrench match. Whilst keeping his optionsopen exists in IRB land, i’ve never believed that Nationality should be traded/switched or oscillated. Your son is a man in every sense of the word [albeit a young one] & has already chosen his‘Nation’ , forever I would hope.

Conceptually national switching isn’t palatable, the IRB have got it very wrong on this subject IMO.
On a tangent Ryan Giggs having captained England schoolboys shouldn’t have been allowed to switch to Wales & Graeme Bachop being capped for both New Zealand and then Japan was bad, but when older bro played for Samoa then NZ & then Samoa again, it left a smear on his wonderful record.

Enjoy your JWC experience, and should Wales come outvictorious my patriotic head will of course be disappointed, but I will neverthelessimagine for a moment the inner pride & feeling of achievement for theplayers & the families for whom the moment will be so precious. Indeed a WC Final may never be repeated in ‘senior’rugby for most of the participants.

I hope he stays fit & the ball bounces favourably at least once in the match.

Good luck ..... SwingLow
:eng:v :wales:

Prediction?
England 23 ... Wales 20.... after extra time [with a last minute right footed drop goal from the normally left footed fly half ! ]

ps..... Lord knows what will be going through Daddy Moriarty’s head when the anthems are being belted out !

Blindpugh
19-06-13, 20:06
Browner thanks for your kind words. It was an amazing performance with French and New Zealand spectators congratulating our boys on their win. I am sure that final on Sunday will be another great advertisement for the game of Rugby Union.

Just to confirm my son had no choice in whether he played against France or not. He was on the bench and if he had come on with a minute to go he would only have been eligible for Wales!

He had no problem with that but young players often have not thought through situation. They are commodities at the end of the day and need people to look after their interests whilst they concentrate on their rugby.

The Sports Lawyer did point out that under law he could have played against France but still played for an English club and helped them meet their match day qota through his mother.

I agree that IRB have got it wrong as has football. Ryan Giggs being a classic example.

With regards to what Moriarity will be thinking on Sunday I will ask him before game!

My wife once asked who I would support if our son ever played for England? I said Wales but I would be very proud.':wales:

I predict a close score and one hell of a party in Vannes afterwards!

Browner
08-11-13, 13:11
A tangent albeit ' linked ' discussion. I see that Charles Piutua has been Selected this weekend for the All Blacks , How strange that he represented Tonga at U20's & then New Zealand at U20s ............just saying

Browner
29-05-15, 15:05
If these advance press releases are ever an indication???? Rose embroidered shirt to now go in the bin, three new ostrich feathers to be worn with new 'pride' :deadhorse:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-world-cup-training-9352452

Browner
02-06-15, 13:06
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32953196

Not sure if his latest nationality is established by mere squad selection, or whether he'll have to formally be in the welsh RWC party, or actually take the pitch ??????

However it make a mockery of U20s national representation IMO.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
02-06-15, 13:06
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32953196

Not sure if his latest nationality is established by mere squad selection, or whether he'll have to formally be in the welsh RWC party, or actually take the pitch ??????

However it make a mockery of U20s national representation IMO.

If there's any substance to genetics then Moriarty is better off in a Wales shirt IMO. He'll make Dylan Hartley look like the Dalai Lama. :biggrin:

SimonSmith
02-06-15, 13:06
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32953196

Not sure if his latest nationality is established by mere squad selection, or whether he'll have to formally be in the welsh RWC party, or actually take the pitch ??????

However it make a mockery of U20s national representation IMO.
Which one? Moriarty or Francis?

Moriarty is more than genuinely qualified to play for Wales, given the family pedigree. Francis qualifies through his grandmother; you can debate whether that should entitle anyone to play for a country, but nonetheless well within current rules.

Browner
02-06-15, 15:06
I dont recall ;
* Francis representing England U20s, or having a U20s World Cup winners medal in his collection.
* seeing any RFU development communication saying developing players for another nation is part of their plan.

Maybe in the new modern era, we should formalise the bun fight for talent by introducing a post u16 draft system ! :sarc:

winchesterref
02-06-15, 16:06
They will be capped in the warm up games to tie them in and prevent them being capped elsewhere. Kind of like it seems with Rokoduguni with England, prevent him playing for Fiji against us in the RWC

Pegleg
02-06-15, 17:06
...On a tangent Ryan Giggs having captained England schoolboys shouldn’t have been allowed to switch to Wales...


It was England Schools. Michael Owen was affected in reverse attending a Welsh school despite being English. You represent the country based on your school not your nationality. It's done that way because you, as a child, have no control over your schooling.

crossref
02-06-15, 18:06
if you tie people too early -- via U16s, schools, u20s etc then two things will happen

1 - unions will wanbt to have as many matches as they can, picking everyone they can to tie them
2 - canny players won't want to play in U16s schools, u20s etc to avoid being tied too early when they really don't know how good they are.

we already have a problem with wannabe professional players cooped up in training academies day on end in the gym and practive field, but with hardly any meaningful actual matches to play in -- we don't want to make that worse.

Really the current system for tieing -- play for the first team or the second team and you're tied -- is fine.

What we should look at is the grandparent rule. It doesn't make any sense to specially privilege players with multi-national grandparents.

Budge Pountney qualified for Scotland because he had a grandmother from the channel islands ..

I really don't see why a grandparent gives you greater entitlement to play for a country than residence does.

Browner
03-06-15, 02:06
It was England Schools.

Michael Owen was affected in reverse attending a Welsh school despite being English. You represent the country based on your school not your nationality. It's done that way because you, as a child, have no control over your schooling.

Wiki says.. England Schoolboys, maybe its wrong & you're right?.

No he wasnt. You've seemingly not picked up on my sole point, Michael Owen never switched nationalities after initial selection. He played for England U15s (as born in England) & never changed nationality from his initial choice.
Giggs did switch - that was my point.


In rugby , I've slightly more understanding of Huw Bennett than Moriarty, despite England U16's and England U18 (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_under-18_rugby_union_team)'s selection ( his schoolboy rugby) & then Wales U19's and Wales U21's, as at least by 'Adulthood' Huw had made his choice & then stuck with it

Moriarty U20s England ----> Wales full cap, just feels wrong to me, U20s are Adults.

irishref
03-06-15, 08:06
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32953196

Not sure if his latest nationality is established by mere squad selection, or whether he'll have to formally be in the welsh RWC party, or actually take the pitch ??????

However it make a mockery of U20s national representation IMO.

England's nominated second team is the Saxons, so you can play for England U20s without tying yourself to the red rose at senior level.

FlipFlop
03-06-15, 11:06
England's nominated second team is the Saxons, so you can play for England U20s without tying yourself to the red rose at senior level.

By my understanding it is worse than that. It only counts as capturing you if you play against another nominated second team.

So say Wales and France nominate their U20, but England nominate their Saxons.

And now hold a tri-nation U20 competition. Wales, England and France. The Wales v Engl;and and France v England game will not capture the players, but the Wales v France game will. So some players might choose to be "injured" or not available for that game!

So you can actually play for the nominated second team, but not be captured, depending on the opposition!

(Or do I mis-understand this?)

ru-campbell
03-06-15, 11:06
By my understanding it is worse than that. It only counts as capturing you if you play against another nominated second team.

So say Wales and France nominate their U20, but England nominate their Saxons.

And now hold a tri-nation U20 competition. Wales, England and France. The Wales v Engl;and and France v England game will not capture the players, but the Wales v France game will. So some players might choose to be "injured" or not available for that game!

So you can actually play for the nominated second team, but not be captured, depending on the opposition!

(Or do I mis-understand this?)

Sort of. Obviously, if you play for Wales/France U20s then you are tied to that country (remember Steven Shringler who tried to pay for Scotland).

If you play for England, Ireland or Scotland at U20, however, then you can still switch nationality.
There is already the U20 Six Nations championship so if you get capped in that (or the U20 World Championship) for Wales or France you cannot change the team.
Personally, I think that it should be equal across the board with selection at U20 tying you to that country. It could also help limit the number of SANZAR players coming over to play international rugby for a British team as most made it to U20 but no further.

OB..
03-06-15, 14:06
By my understanding it is worse than that. It only counts as capturing you if you play against another nominated second team.

So say Wales and France nominate their U20, but England nominate their Saxons.

And now hold a tri-nation U20 competition. Wales, England and France. The Wales v Engl;and and France v England game will not capture the players, but the Wales v France game will. So some players might choose to be "injured" or not available for that game!

So you can actually play for the nominated second team, but not be captured, depending on the opposition!

(Or do I mis-understand this?)I think that is correct and has already happened. There was confusion at the time because the teams did not realise which team had been nominated by their opponents. Perhaps somebody else can remember the details (or dig them up)..

FlipFlop
03-06-15, 16:06
Having read the regulations it is not easy! You are captured if you have reached the age of majority (18?) at the time of the game AND

If you are selected for either the first or second designated teams, and are on the match sheet for a game against another unions designated first or second designated teams. (so players on both sides are captured)
OR
You are selected for the senior team on an official tour which includes international matches, and partake in ANY of the matches on tour. (strange this one: other team does not even have to be an international team - could be a president XV!)
OR
You are selected for the second designated team on an official tour, and partake in any match against a senior or designated second team of another union. (Players from both sides captured)
OR
You are selected for your U20 (if designated as a second team) and partake in any game (regardless of opposition being designated or not) at the Junior World Championships, Junior Trophy, or 6N U20 comps. (We have a situation where players in one side may be captured, but not on the other - Eng U20 v Wal U20 at a World Champs for example)

You can also be captured via the Sevens team of the union by partaking in a game against another international 7s team.

(note: Partake = present as player, or sub, even if not used. On the match sheet!)

Browner
03-06-15, 17:06
Open letter to .... Ross, on Why? (:biggrin:)


Don't EBay your England U20's medal or hide your U20s match shirt just yet!, at least wait til August , in the meantime enjoy training with Wales in the wonderful facilities in Vale, Fiesch & Doha etc, but remember if you don't actually make any match day squad selection prior to the RWC and then get shed out of the 31 RWC squad, then youve not committed 'world cup hari kari' as the door is still open for you to be selected for the country of your birth/club/academy/earlier international representative rugby.


Papa Moriartys understandable economic migration doesn't still compel you to be saddled with a 'never final'd ' set of Plumes, strive instead to rekindle your Rose proud moments and rejoin with Slade, Cowan-Dickie, Nowell & Watson who are ( and demonstrably so) your countrymen!

:eng:

irishref
04-06-15, 08:06
By my understanding it is worse than that. It only counts as capturing you if you play against another nominated second team.

So say Wales and France nominate their U20, but England nominate their Saxons.

And now hold a tri-nation U20 competition. Wales, England and France. The Wales v Engl;and and France v England game will not capture the players, but the Wales v France game will. So some players might choose to be "injured" or not available for that game!

So you can actually play for the nominated second team, but not be captured, depending on the opposition!

(Or do I mis-understand this?)

Each nation nominates their second representative team each year. Some nominate an age-grade team, others a senior "A" team. It is what it is and the information is freely available to all.

No issue as far as I'm concerned.

irishref
04-06-15, 08:06
Over in corrupt land, FIFA had to change their eligibility laws about 10 years ago after investigations into practices surrounding under-age caps, particularly in France. Obviously France's population has a very African flavour and previously anyone playing for the U21 team was then captured for the senior team of that country.

It was alleged that France were handing out caps to espoirs from a number of African nations who were born and/or raised in France to prevent them representing a team that could play against France in a world cup.

A spurious claim perhaps but FIFA did change their rules to allow - for example - Freddy Canoute to represent Mali instead of being in the French wilderness after receiving some France U21 caps.

The old FIFA regulations - which some are asking for in Rugby - do offer the chance of playing with eligibility purely in order to prevent someone playing against you in the future. I think the current situation works just fine, Mr Shingler's advisors simply didn't do their homework.