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Browner
11-07-13, 11:07
George Smith returned to the field having passed a "concussion test" http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/07/3294/george-smith-knocked-out-by-richard-hibbard-on-wallaby-return , does anyone knows what this test consists of ....... & would it be appropriate if a suitably qualified person was present below Elite Level?

crossref
11-07-13, 12:07
IMO The actions of the IRB are sending a consistent message that concussion isn't really much to worry about.
That worries me . Last season I witnessed a 16 yr old prop who had been clearly knocked out returned to the pitch after (imo) a completely cursory examination.

5 minutes later his team mates were so worried about him they asked for him to be taken off.

Browner
11-07-13, 12:07
IMO The actions of the IRB are sending a consistent message that concussion isn't really much to worry about.
That worries me . .

Yep, similar to blood.

crossref
11-07-13, 12:07
IMO The actions of the IRB are sending a consistent message that concussion isn't really much to worry about.
That worries me . .

Yep, similar to blood.

Indeed

The Fat
11-07-13, 13:07
I'm not sure about our 2nd tier competitions in Australia but there is no concussion bin at community level rugby regardless of what brain surgeon may be attending the game.
If a player leaves the field having been knocked out or is showing signs of a possible concussion, his/her afternoon is over.

I had one a month or so ago in an under 15s game where I told the assistant coach that his player's night, following a head knock, was over and that someone needed to monitor him over the next few hours.
15 minutes later the kid was back on the field. When I told him to leave the field, the AR said that he had let him come back on because he thought I had only put him in the concussion/head bin to be assessed. My answer was "There is no head bin and even if there was, who was qualified to make the assessment?"

- - - Updated - - -


IMO The actions of the IRB are sending a consistent message that concussion isn't really much to worry about.
That worries me . Last season I witnessed a 16 yr old prop who had been clearly knocked out returned to the pitch after (imo) a completely cursory examination.

5 minutes later his team mates were so worried about him they asked for him to be taken off.

I'm hoping you were not the referee???

Simon Thomas
11-07-13, 13:07
IRB - NO NO NO and NO.

This incident and allowing Smith to return after a 5 minute test, as specificed by the IRB for Elite Rugby, is wrong for Elite levels and any other level too.

A concussion can be very serious (and has been fatal) and needs careful treatment - having been there twice myself many years ago, I am forever thankful to the two blazers who stopped me from going back on (neither was a medical doctor). I dread to think of the one time I did return v Wasps in a very physical match and what might have happened - to this day I have no recollection of the match, or a few hours later being taken to Addenbrookes having thrown up in the Hawks Club afterwards drinking just water. I was kept in hospital for 48 hours observation.

Good article by Peter Fitz here (http://www.watoday.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/sideline-concussion-test-a-disgrace-20130710-2pqhg.html) including reference to Barry O'Driscoll, who resigned after 15 years as an IRB medical adviser recently directly related to the 5 minute test. "''We're going from being stood down for three weeks to one week to five minutes with players who are showing exactly the same symptoms. The five-minute rule came out of the blue. I couldn't be a part of it so I resigned from the IRB. It saddened me, but I couldn't have my name attached to that decision.''

Phil E
11-07-13, 13:07
All Warwickshire Referees have one of these handy guides produced by the RFU.
Not sure how good it will come out?

2591

anyone got the original pdf ?

crossref
11-07-13, 14:07
I'm hoping you were not the referee???

Indeed not, or it would have been very different - this was - in IMO - about as bad as it gets. Apparent unconsiusness, staggering, confusion, personality change, the lot. He was flanker and the most effective player on the pitch, and then suddenly a passenger 10m behind the play. I couldn't beleive he played on. When his team conceded a try he sat down for a rest leaning against the posts and that's when his team mates insisted he left the pitch.

I was merely there to watch my son. injury was to a player in opposing team.

TheBFG
11-07-13, 14:07
As a ref for a "mens" game, i'm pleased to say i operate at a level where there is always a "qaualified" medical staff member for each team and i would let them make the call (but would still over rule if i didn't think it was safe)

If no medical staff, anyone who was knocoked out/badly dazed would not come back on.

In a youth game, as a ref, i would never let a player back on and if a coach didn't like it, tough, take it up with the CB :wink:

Jacko
11-07-13, 14:07
Possibly stupid question from a non-medic:- Is it possible to be knocked unconscious and not suffer from a concussion?? If it is, and this test can reliably identify someone who has been knocked out but it has not resulted in a concussion, then fair enough.

No test at my games, so anyone knocked out goes off. In fairness to the medics, I cannot remember the last time it was me who had to insist against their wishes. The player involved wishes are a different kettle of fish...

Simon Thomas
11-07-13, 15:07
No test at my games, so anyone knocked out goes off. In fairness to the medics, I cannot remember the last time it was me who had to insist against their wishes. The player involved wishes are a different kettle of fish...

good to hear Jacko , same at Group Level 5 in my experience - any serious head injury with even possible concussion, the coaching staff get them off, however much they may wish to stay on.

crossref
11-07-13, 16:07
Normally I don't think this is an issue: in last several seasons I can only remember once having to force a player off the pitch against the wishes of the coach/medic.

barker14610
11-07-13, 16:07
[QUOTE=Jacko;245966]Possibly stupid question from a non-medic:- Is it possible to be knocked unconscious and not suffer from a concussion??QUOTE]

No. It looked like Smith got hit on the jaw. Right where a boxer aims. No direct blow to the head but the brain still suffers trauma as it rebounds in the skull.

crossref
11-07-13, 18:07
IRB - NO NO NO and NO.

This incident and allowing Smith to return after a 5 minute test, as specificed by the IRB for Elite Rugby, is wrong for Elite levels and any other level too.

A concussion can be very serious (and has been fatal) and needs careful treatment - having been there twice myself many years ago, I am forever thankful to the two blazers who stopped me from going back on (neither was a medical doctor). I dread to think of the one time I did return v Wasps in a very physical match and what might have happened - to this day I have no recollection of the match, or a few hours later being taken to Addenbrookes having thrown up in the Hawks Club afterwards drinking just water. I was kept in hospital for 48 hours observation.

Good article by Peter Fitz here (http://www.watoday.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/sideline-concussion-test-a-disgrace-20130710-2pqhg.html) including reference to Barry O'Driscoll, who resigned after 15 years as an IRB medical adviser recently directly related to the 5 minute test. "''We're going from being stood down for three weeks to one week to five minutes with players who are showing exactly the same symptoms. The five-minute rule came out of the blue. I couldn't be a part of it so I resigned from the IRB. It saddened me, but I couldn't have my name attached to that decision.''

great article, but I completely disagree with



I repeat: I accept the medical professional involved, who gave Smith the PSCA test, acted with integrity. He or she is not the problem. This newly instituted test is. And I am not the only one horrified

a medical professional needs to the integrity to make their own judgement whether a player is fit to play. 'because the IRB told me to' is simply not an excuse. IMO

Taff
11-07-13, 19:07
George Smith returned to the field having passed a "concussion test" .... does anyone knows what this test consists of?
I thought the IRB produced quite a handy document regarding concussion a couple of years ago. I have printed it off but don't have it to hand.

TBH I thought it was put on the RR.com Wiki, but can't find it right now. Have a quick scroll through the "Wiki" pages (link at the top of this page) and if you've got a few minutes have a look through. Even if it's not there, I can virtually guarantee that you will stumble across something else you'll find useful anyway. :biggrin:

Dixie
11-07-13, 19:07
This was Davet a year ago (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?14829-IRB-to-trial-concussion-assessment-procedures&highlight=concussion):


In the community game, if the refereee feels that such an assessment would be justified then I would expect him simply to remove the player from the field permanently, for safety reasons.

I would NOT want this to mean that a player with a bang to the head goes off for 5 mins rest and then comes back on.

Pity that the iRB does not match his wisdom . That thread also contains this:

IRB Chief Medical Officer Martin Raftery said: "The safety and welfare of our players is of paramount importance for the IRB and its 118 Member Unions. As a sport, we have been driving forward concussion management development and best-practice policy over the past decade but we can always do more to protect our athletes.”

"The advantage of this new procedure is that it enables an extra layer of protection for our athletes while delivering for the first time a standardised process of examination and assessment that doctors will follow. The five minute window is ample time and will deter tactical manipulation and will not impact on the shape and character of the Game."

"It is important to remember that these trials are not a fait accompli and we will undertake a thorough analysis of the results at the end of the IRB Junior World Championship and IRB Junior World Rugby Trophy. I would like to thank all the participating Unions and their doctors for their commitment and enthusiasm for this trial."

The IRB has been at the forefront of driving forward sport concussion research, policies and guidelines in recent years. In 2011 the IRB introduced revised protocols governing concussion evaluation and Graduated Return to Play guidelines. It also launched a fully interactive concussion management education website for players, coaches and doctors, www.irbplayerwelfare.com.

Perhaps the Oxford English Dictionary might care to adopt this as an example of Hollow Words.

Oh - and Heeeeerrrrrreeeees Bryan:


I'll also be honest in saying players arent stupid; they want to play and know the standardized questions by now for a concussion assessment, so some will be smart (or stupid?) enough to dodge their way out of it in order to keep playing.

Rushforth
11-07-13, 19:07
http://www.irbrugbyready.com/index.php?section=69&tab=tab-6 ?

Blindpugh
11-07-13, 20:07
Some of you may have followed the recent IRB Junior under 20 World Cup and seen the Wales scrum half being "knocked out" by knee to head from his own LH prop when trying to tackle the Argentinian full back?

That was my son Josh and as I sat watching with my wife my first thoughts were I hope he is alright and then shit he is going to be out for 3 weeks. I was pleased when medic gave thumbs up to coaches and he walked back (gingerly) to posts.

I watched him closely for final 10 minutes and there were no after effects and Wales went on to beat Argentina.:biggrin: He had a headache after game and next day but was monitored closely (unable to go go karting etc) and then had series of tests before being declared fit to play against South Africa.

Carwyn Jones second row also suffered concussion and was ruled out of semi final because he failed the balance test.

Until recently I refereed at grassroots level (6) and in my pre match check I would establish the level of cover provided. If it was a qualified Doctor I was happy for them to make assessment but if I saw any Bambi like actions then I had no hesitation to have player replaced.

I was surprised George Smith was allowed back on field and wonder how much pressure these medics are under to confirm they are ok to continue?

Browner
11-07-13, 23:07
There must be some research that justified the 5 min test ? http://www.canada.com/news/School+board+launches+review+after+rugby+player+di es+after+head+injury/8376953/story.html

damo
11-07-13, 23:07
NZRU Domestic Safety Law Variations


Applicable to all levels of New Zealand domestic rugby.
Does not apply to International and Investec Super Rugby.
9. THE REFEREE'S POWER TO STOP AN INJURED PLAYER FROM
CONTINUING
(a) If the referee believes a player has been concussed or suspects a player
has been concussed, the referee must order that player to leave the
playing area. That player must not return and play in that match.


None of this 5 minute business here either. No discretion for the referee. If he suspects a player has been concussed then forget it, no amount of medical intervention can get him back onto the field.

I'll let the internationals deal with their laws in their own way, but frankly I was less than impressed when Smith came back onto the field.

Dixie
12-07-13, 07:07
There must be some research that justified the 5 min test ?

There is no 5-minute test. All there is is a 5 minute window during which a player with marginal (or no) symptoms can be properly assessed to see whether or not he suffered a concussion. Unfortunately, as many foresaw at the time, all that does is give the medics 5 minutes to get smelling salts under his nose, ensure he can walk and get him back on. ANYONE could see on the pitch that he was concussed. There was absolutely no need for any further test to see whether he was concussed. This was an incident in which the old rules would have served us better. It also gives the lie to the idea that qualified medics in the employ of the sport are better placed than referees to determine the player's interests. Whichever doctor gave the OK for the team to send him back on should face a professional disciplinary, with the possibility of being struck off if found to have acted improperly.

kaypeegee
12-07-13, 16:07
Five minute concussion test required last night in Bath

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2361793/Gavin-Henson-knocked-new-Bath-RFC-team-mate-seen-swanning-city-centre-pub.html

Rushforth
12-07-13, 16:07
Did he play on?

Browner
12-07-13, 23:07
There is no 5-minute test. All there is is a 5 minute window during which a player with marginal (or no) symptoms can be properly assessed to see whether or not he suffered a concussion. Unfortunately, as many foresaw at the time, all that does is give the medics 5 minutes to get smelling salts under his nose, ensure he can walk and get him back on. ANYONE could see on the pitch that he was concussed. There was absolutely no need for any further test to see whether he was concussed. This was an incident in which the old rules would have served us better. It also gives the lie to the idea that qualified medics in the employ of the sport are better placed than referees to determine the player's interests. Whichever doctor gave the OK for the team to send him back on should face a professional disciplinary, with the possibility of being struck off if found to have acted improperly.

:deadhorse: and the chances of that happening are between nought, zero, zilch & none.

Shelflife
13-07-13, 14:07
The problem with this happening at elite level is that once again it filters down to our level and more worringly juvenile level. coaches see their best player go down and want to get hime back in the game asap, or they just assume that its safe to do so as they see on the tv that a short rest will get them sorted again.

Ive asked two underage players to leave the pitch after been put back on again by the coaches, one of them started crying in the lineout, the sad thing was there was 5 mins left in the game and as a contest it was well over, they had unused subs as well and they still put him back on.

Its a bad influence and something i personally think is wrong, the serious damage is done on the second blow to the head soon after the first I think its just a matter of time before we see a case taken against a coach or a team for a failure in their duty of care.

For me, if you are KOed then thats your game over, or if you have to be helped from the pitch then thats your game over too.

L'irlandais
13-08-13, 09:08
Two sides to every story : Radio interview (http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/#!/clip/816/)
iRB's chief medical officer Dr. Martin Raftery on concussions in rugby. :shrug: He mentions 2 World Cup studies, (RWC 2012 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10822493) mentioned here) and this Stephanie Hollis report (http://www.irmrc.unsw.edu.au/documents/sports%20injury%20seminar%20aug07/shollis%20presentation.pdf).
Anybody actually seen results from the RWC studies on-line?

Daftmedic
13-08-13, 10:08
I have many a time told the couch/physio that this chap is not returning onto the pitch.

tim White
13-08-13, 10:08
I have many a time told the couch.

Just remind us again, which one of you was concussed?

Ian_Cook
13-08-13, 10:08
At the elite level, there surely has to be an answer to this problem of medics being under pressure to put possibly concussed players back on the field.

What about the iRB requiring the competition organisers at elite level to have an independent medical professional on hand whose task it is to assess potentially concussed players. Take the job right out of the hands of the team doctors and medics. It would not be hard to do, and would be relatively inexpensive.

For example, in Super Rugby, in each town/city where matches are played, the NZRU, ARU and SARU could have a couple of doctors who would be willing, for a financial consideration, and perhaps season tickets for the family, to attend every home game and act as independent medical professional should circumstance arise.

In the NZ Pony Club rules, we are required to have a qualified medical professional (this can be a paramedic or a doctor) in attendance for any One Day Event or Show Jumping competition. We have to pay them out of our entry fees, and this is at kids grass-roots level.

Daftmedic
13-08-13, 11:08
Just remind us again, which one of you was concussed?

Sorry iPhone prediction. Urgh

Browner
13-08-13, 14:08
c'mon ian, as soon as a person has a paymaster /sponsor/(this includes free season tickets) he'd be open to the same political pressures that blight all the cases were influence comes to be involved.

L'irlandais
13-08-13, 19:08
...What about the iRB requiring the competition organisers at elite level to have an independent medical professional on hand whose task it is to assess potentially concussed players. .l.See my post #26 : that very point was covered in the linked interview : Studies have shown that when independent medical professional were on hand 50% of players were returned to the field of play compared to some 38% when the player was assessed by the team doctor. Perhaps Team doctors know when a pro player is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. In any case team doctors are less likely to put a player back on the field of play than an independent medical professional . ~shrug~ I'd like to be able to down load that report he mentioned from the iRB website!

The underlying problem is the macho culture among the players, who consider concussion to be like a bruised leg, something to play thru'/run it off. Some of these guys learn the answers to the set questions by heart, anything just to get back on the pitch. There needs to be a change of attitude, that players come to see that by playing on, it's not only dangerous for them (a risk people like B'OD are willing to take) but also letting their team mates down by (likely)playing well under par if they are concussed. If players wish to been seen as professionals then let them start acting like pros. Do we see people flouting Health & safety requirements like that in other professions? (Don't answer that!)

OB..
13-08-13, 20:08
do we see people flouting health & safety requirements like that in other professions? (don't answer that!)

Stapley v Gypsum Mines [1953] AC 663 House of Lords

Mr Stapley was killed when a roof of a mine fell on top of him. At the time of his death he was acting against his employers orders. He and another employee Mr Dale had been told to bring the roof down as it was dangerous. The pair knew that this meant that they should not to work in that part of the mine because of the risk. They attempted to bring down the roof but were unsuccessful in their attempts. They then decided to continue with the work they had originally been given. At the time of the collapse, Mr Dale had briefly left that part of the mine and was uninjured. Mrs Stapely brought an action against his employer for breach of statutory duty in relation to the actions of Mr Dale. The trial judge found for the claimant, but reduced the damages by 50% under the Law Reform (Contributory Negligence) Act 1945. The Court of Appeal allowed an appeal by the defendant holding that Mr Stapely was solely responsible for his own death. The claimant appealed to the Lords.

Held:

3:2

The appeal was allowed but the damages were reduced by 80%.http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Stapley-v-Gypsum-Mines.php

tim White
14-08-13, 16:08
But Mr Stapely was not suffering from concussion at the time he decided to undertake the risk, he was ABLE to take the decision for himself -HE accepted the risk. Pitch-side, other people are taking the decision on behalf of the possibly concussed player.

L'irlandais
17-08-13, 23:08
IRB Concussion Guidelines (http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRB_Concussion_Guidelines.pdf) if anyone is interested.

mark.lucas
27-10-13, 05:10
IMO The actions of the IRB are sending a consistent message that concussion isn't really much to worry about.
That worries me . Last season I witnessed a 16 yr old prop who had been clearly knocked out returned to the pitch after (imo) a completely cursory examination.

5 minutes later his team mates were so worried about him they asked for him to be taken off.

I ref at Junior level and am a First-Aider, if I saw that it would be an instant off the field.

Last week I was watching my daughter play (U10 supposedly as a spectator, but suddenly became First Aid central) and a lad had a minor collision (not his head) but across his body so winded. He's OK, he can play on. Then a second bang to the head - off. And three minutes later after I've sat him down in a chair, his head is lolling, he can't focus readily on my finger when I move it around ...

Browner
30-10-13, 01:10
Interestingly Geoff Parling omitted from England squad ........... Lancaster said "Geoff Parling sustained a mild concussion during a contact session this afternoon and will undergo the recommended graduated return to play protocol. As such, he will be unavailable for Saturday’s game but will stay in camp with a view to returning to training next week.” ................. has someone been listening ?

Ian_Cook
30-10-13, 08:10
Interestingly Geoff Parling omitted from England squad ........... Lancaster said "Geoff Parling sustained a mild concussion during a contact session this afternoon and will undergo the recommended graduated return to play protocol. As such, he will be unavailable for Saturday’s game but will stay in camp with a view to returning to training next week.” ................. has someone been listening ?

But that is his Union.

Do you trust that his Club would be so honest and forthright in the same situation

(I don't)

Simon Thomas
30-10-13, 11:10
Interestingly Geoff Parling omitted from England squad ........... Lancaster said "Geoff Parling sustained a mild concussion during a contact session this afternoon and will undergo the recommended graduated return to play protocol. As such, he will be unavailable for Saturday’s game but will stay in camp with a view to returning to training next week.” ................. has someone been listening ?

As Ian says this is a Country Union not a Club decision (with plenty of squad members to step up) and it was after a training ground incident, not in the pressure of a "must win" match.

OB..
30-10-13, 12:10
The cynic in me wonders if this is a case where England fear the club might sue if anything went wrong, whereas if the club plays him, would he sue them?

However from a H&S point of view, it is good whatever the ulterior thinking.

Browner
02-11-13, 18:11
The cynic in me wonders if this is a case where England fear the club might sue if anything went wrong, whereas if the club plays him, would he sue them?

However from a H&S point of view, it is good whatever the ulterior thinking.

OB, cynic or realist? ......... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24765650 If it were my decision alone, I'd make all tackles with shoulder above the armpit illegal, the intention to put some clear 'no-mans land' between there & the head/neck .

ctrainor
02-11-13, 23:11
I had one today, bang to the head down for a few minutes then back to his feet in my opinion unsteady.player says he,s alright but I looked at physio and said I want him off. No arguments from physio and off he went. His team had already lost the game with five minutes to go. Made me think though if he and his team had insisted he was ok would I have had the balls to walk off and abandon it. I hope so. Has anyone actually done that?

FlipFlop
02-11-13, 23:11
Not done it. But threatened to Red Card a player for not going off for concussion (after they were knocked out, and refused to believe it!).

It took that threat to get them off (coach and physio were also on my side, and player eventually was taken to hospital for checks)

The Fat
03-11-13, 00:11
I had one today, bang to the head down for a few minutes then back to his feet in my opinion unsteady.player says he,s alright but I looked at physio and said I want him off. No arguments from physio and off he went. His team had already lost the game with five minutes to go. Made me think though if he and his team had insisted he was ok would I have had the balls to walk off and abandon it. I hope so. Has anyone actually done that?

Why would you need to abandon the game? If you decide the player should not be on the field, then off he goes. If he refuses, YC him for dissent. If he still refuses to go, give him a 2nd yellow. The other players shouldn't have to suffer because of one.

Camquin
03-11-13, 11:11
Subject came up on BBC Radio 4's broadcasting house this morning.

ctrainor
03-11-13, 20:11
Why would you need to abandon the game? If you decide the player should not be on the field, then off he goes. If he refuses, YC him for dissent. If he still refuses to go, give him a 2nd yellow. The other players shouldn't have to suffer because of one.

Doh, of course you are correct The Fat. Maybe suffering myself as I got too close yesterday at one point and ended on my arse. Hopefully the club video caught it an i'll share it ater my £250 entry to you've been framed!!

tim White
03-11-13, 20:11
Now you've made an injury into a disciplinary offence?

No-one will know if you were correct in getting the player off- everyone will know if you got it wrong and he collapsed later.

Blackberry
03-11-13, 21:11
As I understand it, we can decide if a player is unfit to play on


3.9 The referee’s power to stop an injured player from continuing

If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order an injured player to leave the field in order to be medically examined.

winchesterref
02-12-13, 10:12
http://www.espn.co.uk/ireland/rugby/story/207783.html

Not nice when your father is worrying about your future health!

Browner
02-12-13, 16:12
I'd like to see a chart showing the number of concussions that BoD [or any other top older player] has suffered throughout his career.. My £ is that there are many more in the latter stages than the early years , hardly any brought on by his age.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
02-12-13, 16:12
My £ is that there are many more in the latter stages than the early years , hardly any brought on by his age.
What?

Browner
05-02-14, 12:02
http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12549/9149648/aviva-premiership-gloucesters-andy-hazell-retires-after-17-years-at-kingsholm ............ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26019840 .....some interesting comments in here !

L'irlandais
05-02-14, 22:02
Hi Browner,
You'll not find those BOD stats floating around on the www : Medical secret, i'd say. "I fear for my son (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2516239/Brian-ODriscoll-suffered-far-concussions-playing-Ireland-says-father.html) - he has suffered far too many concussions", says father of Irish legend Brian O'Driscoll.

Lots of ink has been spilled on the subject, yet are we any the wiser after all those articles : Concussion: how rugby union's rulers risk the lives of their players (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/14/rugby-union-concussion-medical-experts) = Article tells us that Rugby players have gotten bigger during the professional era, increasing the risk of injury. Thanks a 6 year old could have told us the same, without ever having spent years studing journalism!

Browner
07-02-14, 02:02
These were the most interesting to me ................."I got concussed, came back and then got concussed again . I worked hard to get back, and tried everything, but it still wasn't right. Ultimately, it was too much of a risk at this stage of my career to try and play on"............ & "If I was 25 or 26, I'd 100% be trying to get back onto that pitch no matter what cost," ............. & "I'd love to help out because I wouldn't want to see any young lad going through the same thing when maybe they shouldn't be playing," :chin:

Simon Thomas
13-03-14, 14:03
New RFU Headcase resources are here (http://www.rfu.com/headcase) and the RFU are pushing this hard with a lot of extra material. They even request us to add a Headcase banner to our web sites - code here (http://www.rfu.com/takingpart/playerhealth/concussion/resources-and-downloads)!

the match officials page is here (http://www.rfu.com/takingpart/playerhealth/concussion/match-officials) and a useful PDF here (http://www.rfu.com/takingpart/playerhealth/concussion/~/media/files/2013/taking%20part/concussion/match%20official%20general%20info.ashx)

Thee is a useful Pocket CONCUSSION RECOGNITION TOOL™ here (http://www.rfu.com/takingpart/playerhealth/concussion/~/media/files/2013/taking%20part/concussion/pocket%20scat3.ashx) from BMJ (British Medical Association) as used by IRB, Olympics, FEI, FIFA and others.

Very clear reminder

Law 3.9: The referee's power to stop an injured player from continuing

If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order an injured player to leave the field in order to be medically examined.

That is very clear to me - it is your decision as referee to make that player leave, whoever may try to persuade you that they can continue.

Full RFU release is attached

2822

Shelflife
13-03-14, 14:03
More words Simon, no action im afraid. Again at the weekend we had a situation where an Italian player had to leave the pitch with assistance, 10 mins later he was back on again. Now if a band saw operator got a blow to the head and fell to the ground, would you let him return to his job 10mins later? yet the authorities let this happen over and over again.

Simple for me, if a player needs help to leave the pitch after a blow to the head, then he doesnt come back on. Its simple really.

Account Deleted
13-03-14, 22:03
Yes empty words! A disaster waiting to happen.

Simon Thomas
13-03-14, 23:03
So what are IRFU and WRU doing about it ?

At least RFU are communicating and informing their whole game in England with a high profile campaign.

andyscott
13-03-14, 23:03
That is very clear to me - it is your decision as referee to make that player leave, whoever may try to persuade you that they can continue.



Indeed its one of those situations you need to be strong, I have done it 3 times, just stick to your guns.
2 were definite head injuries, 1 was vomiting allegedly from to much alcohol the night before, I said I cant be certain of that, he goes off.

Taff
13-03-14, 23:03
New RFU Headcase resources are here (http://www.rfu.com/headcase) and the RFU are pushing this hard with a lot of extra material. They even request us to add a Headcase banner to our web sites - code here (http://www.rfu.com/takingpart/playerhealth/concussion/resources-and-downloads)!
Works for me. :clap:


Indeed its one of those situations you need to be strong, I have done it 3 times, just stick to your guns.
From my pretty limited experience you don't usually have to be that strong; on the 3 occasions I've had a groggy player this season, the coaches were happy to take him off. Not 1 tried to persuade me that he was OK to carry on. Perhaps the message is getting through.

menace
14-03-14, 00:03
Works for me. :clap:



Ummmm...don't think it meant you needed to put it as your email/blog signature block (give yourself an uppercut). But whatever floats your boat. :biggrin::wink::wink:

Account Deleted
14-03-14, 00:03
So what are IRFU and WRU doing about it ?

At least RFU are communicating and informing their whole game in England with a high profile campaign.

Officially they are making the same noises and backing the IRB position. Why do you need to make this about union vs union? The problem is that at the top level (AGAIN) lip service is paid to the issues. At Grassroots we don't get an issue with this subject and I'm sure it is the same in Ireland, England and everywhere else. Sadly The elite game is a different ball game. The lions tour showed that.

I'd have thought that you Simon would have been above the petty Union Vs Union nonsense.

menace
14-03-14, 00:03
The concussion stuff has been well and truly advertised down here for the past 2 seasons...yet I was 4th official at a recent semi-pro international game that was refereed by a S15 ref. A player went down from a headknock (in front of the bench and play moved away from him so game continued and medic saw to him) and he looked all but knocked out. While the medic was with player, he was semi convulsing and they couldn't really get a cohesive response for a minute or so. As they got him to sit up, the game stopped and ref came over. Player had a bit of blood from nose, so they did a blood injury temp replacement. Dr then waves his magic fingers in front of players eyes and hey presto, 5 minutes later the glassy eyed player was asked to be interchanged back into the game. No5 and I were dumbfounded, but not surprised. We had no gambit to prevent him going on. For the next 5 minutes the player was a bit wobbly and stayed in back play. Best we could do was give the ref a heads up message to keep an eye on him. I guess the moral is, that regardless of the concussion messages, at the elite level, it's not going to make a difference. They will do as they've always done, and that is to ignore the issue. The important issue for them is the here and now of winning the game, not preserving the players brain for his future!

Browner
14-03-14, 01:03
The concussion stuff has been well and truly advertised down here for the past 2 seasons...yet I was 4th official at a recent semi-pro international game that was refereed by a S15 ref. A player went down from a headknock (in front of the bench and play moved away from him so game continued and medic saw to him) and he looked all but knocked out. While the medic was with player, he was semi convulsing and they couldn't really get a cohesive response for a minute or so. As they got him to sit up, the game stopped and ref came over. Player had a bit of blood from nose, so they did a blood injury temp replacement. Dr then waves his magic fingers in front of players eyes and hey presto, 5 minutes later the glassy eyed player was asked to be interchanged back into the game. No5 and I were dumbfounded, but not surprised. We had no gambit to prevent him going on. For the next 5 minutes the player was a bit wobbly and stayed in back play. Best we could do was give the ref a heads up message to keep an eye on him. I guess the moral is, that regardless of the concussion messages, at the elite level, it's not going to make a difference. They will do as they've always done, and that is to ignore the issue. The important issue for them is the here and now of winning the game, not preserving the players brain for his future!

Sounds like you need to get the gambit, somehow ! .....If it's a To3 , then that applies to safety ,...yes?

Shelflife
14-03-14, 01:03
So what are IRFU and WRU doing about it ?

At least RFU are communicating and informing their whole game in England with a high profile campaign.

Simon I wasn't having a go at the RFU, its all the powers that be that wont make the simple call.

FWIW the IRFU have also done informational promos to highlight concussion and had workshops on it for coaches and players.

It just undoes all the good work when we have instances like we had last weekend.

Browner
14-03-14, 01:03
Post match 3wks ago, I'm chatting to the capt of home team, I'd insisted he concussed off during the match.

His wife & two young kids turn up and wander over, and on seeing his bruised cheek is told , "I was knocked out slightly, but i'm fine luv.... " her response was priceless and unforgettable ............

" I told you to get the life insurance sorted, you're not playing again until you do, we've got kids now"


Love is ....... Paying your premiums ...!


Simon, thanks for the info...I'm going to see how long this info takes to get cascaded to this club juniors coach... Watch this space

menace
14-03-14, 03:03
Sounds like you need to get the gambit, somehow ! .....If it's a To3 , then that applies to safety ,...yes?

Yes and no...but no4/5 are not in the To3....and AIUI has no gambit or weight to tell a player or the team medic a player is not fit to be back on the field (except for blood replacement returning). We can only tell the To3 what we think...which we did. The laws say the 'referee' has that discretion, not the AR/TJ and certainly not the 4/5s. But I'm happy to be corrected on that.

menace
14-03-14, 04:03
For those interested - not that most of us need convincing.

Recent story on TV about concussion by ex-wallaby Peter Fitzsimmon

http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/video/watch/21894184/the-reality-of-concussion-in-sport/

Browner
14-03-14, 09:03
Yes and no...but no4/5 are not in the To3....and AIUI has no gambit or weight to tell a player or the team medic a player is not fit to be back on the field (except for blood replacement returning). We can only tell the To3 what we think...which we did. The laws say the 'referee' has that discretion, not the AR/TJ and certainly not the 4/5s. But I'm happy to be corrected on that.

If 4\5 communicate concerns to To3, presumably To3 have already seen the player in question be KO'd , then you have imagine that they
A) disagree with your view
B) lack the resolve to make the headline call
C) have other curtailing pressures
D) abdicate decisions to medics (employees of clubs (?))

Or a combination of either

I guess the q? Is "what should happen?"

L'irlandais
14-03-14, 21:03
So what are IRFU ... doing about it ?...The IRFU have launched a new guide to educate players, coaches, officials and parents on the dangers of concussion and how to recognise it.STOP INFORM REST RETURN (http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/28045.php#.UyNicCEo_cs) -


"This guide, and our traffic light poster campaign, should be displayed in every rugby school and club in Ireland, to ensure more people recognise concussion and take action to reduce the risk of serious injury.”
I believe they have raised awareness in the country. :shrug:

menace
15-03-14, 01:03
I think in the end that there has been so much hype and information campaigns from (all?) the rugby Unions that at least no one; player, parent, spectator and team officials, can't say they don't know about it. Just about everyone has been told about the risks, how they choose to deal with that risk is up to them. Just like smoking, people choose to ignore the risks.

Taff
15-03-14, 06:03
I think in the end that there has been so much hype and information campaigns from (all?) the rugby Unions that at least no one; player, parent, spectator and team officials, can't say they don't know about it.Good point Menace.

Browner
25-03-14, 15:03
http://www.espn.co.uk/ireland/rugby/story/219687.html

Interestingly the newspaper quotes "mandatory three-week lay-off"

Dear Parents,
Always insist on a scan, not conclusive, but better than being turned away.

buff
26-03-14, 00:03
The mandatory lay-off came up yesterday in the pre-season meeting for my high school league. One of the coaches said that the IRB Rugby Ready program required at mandatory 20 day lay-off. I did my rugby ready several seasons ago so that caught me by surprise.

Stephen Elliott
28-03-14, 00:03
Thanks for all the links to support decision making.
I'm of the opinion that anyone being KOd from now on must show NO signs of it affecting them or I'll refuse for them to continue; I now know how and why I should do that.
I'm going to get some people inflamed with this, but I will say that not everyone KOd has suffered a concussion, and I understand the why risk it, but it is their choice. I disagree that you can trick the test. If you're not right, you're not right and no-one wants to let you play as no-one wants that on their conscience, but and it is a big Butt, you can develop symptoms after 5 minutes later.
At lower levels there is more of an incentive to play on as there is less scrutiny of the players, ref and physio. However, some individuals take it just as seriously as a national game... without TMOs looking over your shoulder, let alone ARs, physios or coaches (or couches) as a referee, you should be supported 100% by your society to make the right decision.
As a referee, I think it's important that we set a standard that we feel comfortable with. If the unions set lower standards, that is fine, but for 80 minutes we are responsible (morally if not legally) for the player safety.

buff
28-03-14, 02:03
If you mean KO'd in the literal sense, knocked unconscious, however briefly, the player should not be allowed back on at all, period.

L'irlandais
28-03-14, 22:03
Myth gents!


"A player doesn't have to be knocked out to sustain a serious concussion," ... "In some cases, individuals who are knocked out may suffer less severe trauma. In either case, the severity of the concussion might not be known for days or weeks."

Source (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120329170220.htm)

Na Madrai
29-03-14, 14:03
Had an interesting example of this only last Sunday. County Cup Semi-final, colts. Match has been played at one hundred miles an hour with no quarter given or requested, brilliant, end to end stuff.

Home team openside, player of the match, takes knee to his face from his own prop. Crimson flows and I stop the match. Coaches quickly arrive and it is clear to me that the player is out of it. Clock is still running and two minutes, twenty five seconds after the coach arrives, player gets to his feet and immediately imitates a newly born foal. I instruct coach that his player is done for the day.

Five minutes later, at line out in front of this coach, I am informed that the player's nose has stopped bleeding and he is fit to resume playing. I simply refuse stating that it is my decision. Coach walks onto the field before the lineout can be taken, stands in front of me and, politely, inform me that the homely young lass standing next to him is a qualified physio, has a medical degree and is employed directly by the RU and she has agreed that the player is fit to resume playing - why do a good contingent of attendants at my matches this season seem to be employed by the RU? In this instance, however, it could even be true as on an adjacent pitch there were county trials for ladies in progress!

I respond, politely, that I do not care if the Lord himself had declared the player fit, in this instance, my decision is final and the player was not to take any further action in this match and for him to leave the pitch immediately. His response was to turn to the player and instruct him to replace one of his team mates on the pitch. My immediate response was to state that if he set as much as a stud on the pitch, I would red card him immediately and his coach with him. He did not resume playing.

However, because nothing I do seems straightforward, at the bar I was approached by one of the coaches who had been with the ladies and he stated that under no circumstances could a referee over rule qualified medical personnel. I had officially been advised that the player was fit to play by qualified personnel and I had no right to threaten a coach with a RC. Had I issued a RC, the match could have been declared null and void and a replay would have been ordered.

Having been approached by two coaches, the physio and now this clown since the final whistle, all very civilised I must add, I simply pointed out to this guy that I had stood by my decision and as far as I was concerned, the matter was over and the away team went through 10 - 0.

My SS has now been in touch wanting full details! Such fun.

NM

RobLev
29-03-14, 15:03
...politely, inform me that the homely young lass standing next to him is a qualified physio, has a medical degree and is employed directly by the RU and she has agreed that the player is fit to resume playing...

...

However, because nothing I do seems straightforward, at the bar I was approached by one of the coaches who had been with the ladies and he stated that under no circumstances could a referee over rule qualified medical personnel.

...

I missed the bit where the physio was stated to be a fully qualified neurologist.

If I want an opinion on my gas boiler, I don't ask a joiner; if I want an opinion on a head injury, I don't ask a physio.

RobLev
29-03-14, 15:03
More specifically; the physio has no/insufficient qualification in neurology to enable her to overrule the protocol. If you let him back on, you are not therefore following the protocol; which specifially states (paraphrasing two points) that if a player displays any symptoms following a head injury he may not return to play that day. Unless she is denying that staying down for several minutes after an impact with the head, and thereafter being wobbly on his feet, are not relevant symptoms, then she is asking you to ignore the protocol.

The fact that she is quoted as saying "He is OK now", rather than "There was nothing wrong with him other than a nosebleed" suggests she doesn't deny the symptoms.

In any event, putting my lawyer hat on, if I was acting for the player and you'd let him back on and he thereafter sufffered severe brain damage in a second head impact, I'd have your metaphorical guts for garters in the ensuing legal claim... She and the coach would have been co-defendants, of course, but that would be no consolation to you. The fact that she wanted to play fast and loose with protocols specifically in place to protect my client gives you no licence to do so.

The IRB regulation, of course, is mandatory; anyone suspected to be suffering from concussion must be removed from play immediately and take no further part in the match.


...but I don't think you can technically RC the coach :biggrin:

OB..
29-03-14, 18:03
If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may order that player to leave the playing area.(My emphasis)

Simon
29-03-14, 20:03
I missed the bit where the physio was stated to be a fully qualified neurologist.

If I want an opinion on my gas boiler, I don't ask a joiner; if I want an opinion on a head injury, I don't ask a physio.

I am a Neurologist, as well as being an occasional U17 coach and referee and I find it very hard to diagnose concussion. It is very difficult to define what concussion is. It is like pornography in that respect - you cannot define it but you know it when you see it. In practice, I see people in my clinics weeks down the line when they have continuing symptoms, however imaging with MRI is nearly always normal, mean there is something going on at a cellular level beyond the resolution of current imaging technology.

I agree that Na Madrai was right to stand his ground. Our first priority is the safety of the players.

There is a lot of interest in concussion from the US Military and also in NFL. I was at a recent conference when they were discussing what are the best pitch side tests for concussion. Currently the test used is the Pitchside Suspected Concussion Assessment (PSCA), which apparently George Smith passed:

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/irb-to-review-pitchside-concussion-test-after-smith-injury-20130718-2q5o7.html

The PSCA requires a doctor to carry out an assessment:

http://www.irpa-rugby.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/130812-PSCA-Procedures-and-Definitions.pdf

As for grassroots where the rest of us are at the moment it is harder. Often the questions from the Sport Concussion Assessment Tool are used:

http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_1006.pdf

But even these has a medical component.

The talk I went to discussed a new test called the King-Devick Test:

http://kingdevicktest.com

This is a simple pitch side reading test that looks at reading speed. Each player has to have a baseline test and then the test is repeated after the suspected concussion. It is an American test, however it has been tried on New Zealand amateur rugby players:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374885

Now that there is significant interest here in a number of sports I suspect that there will be a lot of progress made in the next few years. I suspect that there is not going to be one simple answer to assess players as every head injury is different, but I think it is correct to err on the side of caution and exclude any player from continuing playing if it is suspected that they are concussed.

The issue of scanning head injuries is more complicated. Scans will be required on the door in order to detect significant intracranial bleeds. This will be with CT scans, which are X-Ray based and therefore carry a significant amount of ionising radiation exposure.

There are guidelines for A+E departments to decide who needs a CT in minor head injury. These apply to Glasgow Coma Scale (GCS) 13-15, presence of loss of consciousness or amnesia to the Head Injury Event, or Confusion
Major Criteria
(Signs/Symptoms Concerning for Need for Neurosurgical Intervention)
GCS < 15 at 2 hours post-injury - someone who is conscious, obey commands but confused would score 14.
Suspected open or depressed skull fracture
Any sign of basilar skull fracture? (Haemotympanum, Racoon Eyes, Battle’s Sign, CSF oto-/rhinorrhea)
≥ 2 episodes of vomiting
Age ≥ 65 (could apply to the occasional prop still mad enough to play)
Minor Criteria
(Additional Signs/Symptoms That Help Detect All Traumatic Intracranial Processes)
Retrograde Amnesia to the Event ≥ 30 minutes
"Dangerous" Mechanism? (Pedestrian struck by motor vehicle, Occupant ejected from motor vehicle, or Fall from > 3 feet or > 5 stairs.)

These have been validated - but they are still guidelines and the rule is that if there is later deterioration then the patient needs re-assessment, which is why minor head injury advice needs to be given upon discharge from A+E.

crossref
29-03-14, 20:03
it would have been interesting if they had gone ahead and attempted the substition.

now, you would have refused to allow the interchange and could show a RC. But as you were refusing the interchange, the person you were RC would have been a non-player so they could still continue with 15 on the pitch ...

crossref
29-03-14, 20:03
NM - from your account I think you were perfectly correct.
I have only once had to over-rule a coach and insist a player leaves the pitch. I also received some angry objections and rolling of eyes.
The player himself (an U17) then bounded up and down the touchline to shoe how fit he was.
which lasted about 5 minutes and then he became quiet
then ten minutes later I realised he had been sick, and then he sat down - still in his short and shirts, now shivering, with his head in his hands.

it gave me no pleasure at all when I saw two coaches finally leading him away... obviously not right at all.

did I get an apology? did I buggery.

Browner
30-03-14, 02:03
NM - from your account I think you were perfectly correct.
I have only once had to over-rule a coach and insist a player leaves the pitch. I also received some angry objections and rolling of eyes.
The player himself (an U17) then bounded up and down the touchline to shoe how fit he was.
which lasted about 5 minutes and then he became quiet
then ten minutes later I realised he had been sick, and then he sat down - still in his short and shirts, now shivering, with his head in his hands.

it gave me no pleasure at all when I saw two coaches finally leading him away... obviously not right at all.

did I get an apology? did I buggery.

Dear RFU coach Licensing manager
This is what I witnessed ,

I'll leave it to you to decide whether the coaches / physios of team x are deemed a fit &proper person to hold a coach / physio licence. Etc...
Ys
Qualified referee
Cc CB cwo, referee Society secretary, RFU child welfare dept.

For you as well N M ........... X

L'irlandais
30-03-14, 13:03
Well done, Na Madrai.

6.C.2 Those who may enter the playing area The match doctor and the non-playing members of the team may enter the playing area as authorised by the referee.

6.C.3 Limits to entering the playing area (http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=6.C.3)
In the case of injury, these persons may enter the playing area while play continues, provided they have permission from the referee. Otherwise, they enter only when the ball is dead.As far as I can see the LoTG don't mention that the coach has the right to enter the field of play, not even if the ball is dead, and certainly not without the referee's permission.
There is this mention :
6.A.4 The duties of the referee in the playing enclosure (g) (http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=6.A.4)
The referee gives permission to each of the coaches to enter the playing area at half-time to attend to their teams during the interval.You may allow him on at the interval to attend to his team, but certainly not to interupt the match to give you his opinion. It's a no-no, and he should know better.

If the esteemed gentleman doesn't care all that much about the safety of his underage player, then perhaps he's not fit to be coaching an underage side. (Colts is U19, right?) I wouldn't trust my child to somebody who gets carried away by the heat of the action.

As to carding or threatening to card a member of the coaching staff, it has previously been discussed (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?919-Refs-carding-Coaches-and-even-Spectators) here on RRF. The general feeling seemed to be the Blazers should deal with it, so the individual is NOT allowed to (even attempt) to interupt the referee during the game. I cannot find the Law which states the referee can request the coach leave the playing enclosure. (Perhaps it covered under the RFU régulations?)

On that note, (RFU regulations) we should be careful on RRF that Reg. 1.10 g)
comments and/or conduct in connection with current and/or anticipated disciplinary proceedings and/or match officiating (or any aspect thereof) which may be prejudicial to and/or impact upon current and/or anticipated disciplinary proceedings and/or which are prejudicial to the interests of the Game and/or any person; or the disciplinary process constitutes misconduct!

tim White
30-03-14, 16:03
NM; well done for spotting it and taking the appropriate action. Particularly well done for sticking by the correct decision in the face of sustained pressure.

Red Card to Player (not technically a red card offence but it would serve the immediate purpose) and Coach (not technically a red card but it would certainly display your intentions) -just submit a simple report to the Society and Disciplinary people as if it was a red card, you might also deem it 'abuse' by the coach. Whatever you decide will certainly make the blazers aware and something will have to be done at this point because you put it in writing.

If not us, then whom? If not now, when? And who said doing the right thing was the same as doing the easiest thing?

Stephen Elliott
31-03-14, 15:03
Well done Na Madrai

I don't care if it's not technically correct, but if a coach enters the field of play then you did right to threaten with a red card and show the seriousness to players and spectators. Show me the law that says it's not.

Your management of the situation was impeccable and I would suggest asking your society to write a letter to the coach and his club to remind them of their rights... or lack of them.

Browner
24-04-14, 15:04
http://www.rugbydump.com/2014/04/3689/george-pisi-huge-hit-leaves-shane-geraghty-ill-for-next-ten-minutes

Is throwing up a sign of concussion, or a sign of stomach upset?
If I knew a player was chundering on the pitch he'd be off .... Is this a overreaction on my part?

Taff
24-04-14, 16:04
... Is throwing up a sign of concussion, or a sign of stomach upset?
A less common sympton of concussion apparently. Source: NHS website (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/concussion/pages/symptoms.aspx)

The most common symptoms of concussion are:

•headache
•dizziness
•nausea - I'm not sure if this is medical speak for spewing
•loss of balance
•confusion, such as being unaware of your surroundings
•feeling stunned or dazed
•disturbances with vision, such as double vision or seeing 'stars' or flashing lights
•difficulties with memory (see below)

Less common signs and symptoms of concussion include:

•loss of consciousness
•vomiting
•slurred speech
•'glassy eyes' and a vacant stare
•changes in behaviour, such as feeling unusually irritable
•inappropriate emotional responses, such as suddenly bursting into laughter or tears

Shelflife
24-04-14, 16:04
If it was after a tackle Id be having a long look at him, we were told at a recent meeting that you can be concussed after a blow to the body as well.

Its hard to pick them all up, missed one yesterday when reffing a final, red were well beaten and red capt shipped a tackle, didnt look too bad and all he wanted to do was get on with the game, seemed more frustrated and upset at the way the game had gone than anything.
After about 2mins he was off, thankfully there were some first/aiders/ambulance service people there to look after him.

Coach was happy to play him, sometimes you think that they will know the player better but I usually prefer to take the decision out of their hands.

leaguerefaus
24-04-14, 16:04
To me, my primary role is to referee. If I'm going to order a player off, I'd need to be pretty damn sure he's concussed.

Shelflife
24-04-14, 17:04
To me, my primary role is to referee. If I'm going to order a player off, I'd need to be pretty damn sure he's concussed.

Agree with you, this was at u14, sometimes the coaches are more interested in winning the game than looking after the players. Id just hate to be involved in an unfortunate situation.

OB..
24-04-14, 19:04
Surely the primary responsibility is Safety? If you (reasonably) suspect concussion, it is unsafe for a player to continue.

tim White
24-04-14, 19:04
Surely the primary responsibility is Safety? If you (reasonably) suspect concussion, it is unsafe for a player to continue.

:clap:

If in any doubt -he goes. If I make a mistake in such circumstances I want it to be on the safe side. No-one will know if I was right, everyone will know if I was wrong.

Rushforth
24-04-14, 20:04
Surely the primary responsibility is Safety? If you (reasonably) suspect concussion, it is unsafe for a player to continue.

I fully agree that the primary responsibility is safety. However, if a player is out of action both literally (on the ground for whatever reason) and in the sense of not being anywhere near the ball, I can only spend a glance or two and a signal to the "physio" (i.e. water carrier).

Now, that's working on the principle that if it is really serious players will alert me (and they always do, from both sides), but it does mean a delay between "minor" concussion and the time I get there.

If I've been able - out of a couple of glances perhaps, but most likely after a legal accident (bad tackle attempt, etc.) - to determine that the player is looking groggy, then they are off (no genuine doctor at my level, and safety above all).

Fortunately at my level most players have common sense (when not playing at full adrenaline) and anybody who has taken a knock to the head does tend to get shepherded off. What worries me is the intermediate level: not rugby or refereeing skill here, just availability of medics compared to competitiveness of matches.

Players of all levels (back to their skill) will insist that they are fine. After all, they want to play, and if they ARE concussed, they are even less likely to be aware of the issue than other issues.

My opinion only.

Browner
24-04-14, 21:04
:clap:

If in any doubt -he goes. If I make a mistake in such circumstances I want it to be on the safe side. No-one will know if I was right, everyone will know if I was wrong.

This is my thinking, but if SG was throwing up on the pitch ( as reported in the press) then its yet another bad example being shown by the elite game. The macho statements that attach to the article add to the problem.

didds
25-04-14, 00:04
I may have missed something in the thread so apolgies if this has been said or doesn't actually make sense (no change there then!), but I'd suggest if a player is throwing up then he off for the game, irrespective of concussion. If only because no member of the oppo (or his teammates!) needs to be vomited on, and he is clearly in no fit state to continue anyway.

didds

Browner
25-04-14, 11:04
To me, my primary role is to referee. If I'm going to order a player off, I'd need to be pretty damn sure he's concussed.

So, as in this example, after taking a big tackle a player is throwing up for the next 5-10 mins, would that make you sure enough LRA?

leaguerefaus
25-04-14, 15:04
So, as in this example, after taking a big tackle a player is throwing up for the next 5-10 mins, would that make you sure enough LRA?

I'm not sure I'd make the leap from throwing up to concussion. I would, however, not allow a player on the field who is vomiting - just as I would not allow a player on the field who is bleeding.

Browner
25-04-14, 17:04
I'm not sure I'd make the leap from throwing up to concussion. I would, however, not allow a player on the field who is vomiting - just as I would not allow a player on the field who is bleeding.,

It seems like they can be connected, reference = post #90

Dixie
12-05-14, 10:05
If there was any doubt that pro rugby teams couldn't give a crap about player safety, and are perfectly happy for concussed players to carry on, check out this video of Florian Fritz getting wiped out in the T14 on Friday, but later being put back onto the field. To their credit, the iRB has asked the FFR to launch a full investigation (why did the FFR need to be asked?????), but the proof of the pudding will be in he sanction (if any) incurred.

http://balls.ie/rugby/video-florian-fritz-takes-serious-blow-to-the-head-still-returns/

irishref
12-05-14, 12:05
Dixie,

I watched the game on Friday night from the comfort of my own living room. Multiple replays of the incident and even though it wasn't replayed, the point at which the medical staff were trying to get Florian off the pitch suggested to me (with limited knowledge) that he wouldn't - nay couldn't - safely return. Not only was he doing the best impression of jellylegs I've ever seen, he seemed to be fighting with the medical staff who were trying to give him some medical attention. Dazed and confused?

Another aside, although I didn't take note of the timing - and with the caveat that commentators are ususally not exactly correct - they seemed to suggest his return to the pitch was some 17 minutes after being taken off...

Toby Warren
12-05-14, 12:05
In the Fritz case do you think that the ref should have intervened and said no he's not coming back on?

In the weeds that's game over and I know there's Drs involved but still that was a shocker

irishref
12-05-14, 12:05
Toby,

I don't think the ref is allowed to intervene when the game has official team doctors appointed, is he? That being the point: refs aren't doctors so don't have them guessing on it in the elite game.

But yes, any grassroots games then I think any of us witnessing such an injury would have said "he's not getting back on". But then again, I couldn't imagine a grassroots coach acting in the way Guy Noves did!

leaguerefaus
12-05-14, 12:05
For all the people who have commented on RL's careless approach to player safety, you will be pleased to know that from the start of this year's NRL season, any player suspected of a concussion has had to be subbed and receive a full concussion test from a doctor. If he is ruled to have a concussion, he cannot return. Two clubs have received $20000 ($10000 of which is suspended) for failing to sub off a player who may have been concussed.

OB..
12-05-14, 13:05
But then again, I couldn't imagine a grassroots coach acting in the way Guy Noves did!Unfortunately, I have seen just that. Fortunately the ref stood his ground and refused to let the player back on.

As the ref was leaving the pitch at the end, a couple of blazers tried to harangue him about it.

leaguerefaus
12-05-14, 13:05
For all the people who have commented on RL's careless approach to player safety, you will be pleased to know that from the start of this year's NRL season, any player suspected of a concussion has had to be subbed and receive a full concussion test from a doctor. If he is ruled to have a concussion, he cannot return. Two clubs have received $20000 ($10000 of which is suspended) for failing to sub off a player who may have been concussed.

$20000 fines***

Browner
12-05-14, 13:05
For all the people who have commented on RL's careless approach to player safety, you will be pleased to know that from the start of this year's NRL season, any player suspected of a concussion has had to be subbed and receive a full concussion test from a doctor. If he is ruled to have a concussion, he cannot return. Two clubs have received $20000 ($10000 of which is suspended) for failing to sub off a player who may have been concussed.

If serious, Why suspend fine?
Who decided the player stays on? Who appoints this person?

The fine stance is to be applauded, to be robust the Dr's appointment or decisions can't be influenced by the clubs!.

Browner
12-05-14, 13:05
Unfortunately, I have seen just that. Fortunately the ref stood his ground and refused to let the player back on.

As the ref was leaving the pitch at the end, a couple of blazers tried to harangue him about it.

Well done that ref, ideally the blazers should be reported for their approach.

The RFU should lead this subject, how much energy do they currently employ to get the message over to clubs/coaches/blazers?

I can tell you this 'zero' arrives at this coaches door through my club.

leaguerefaus
12-05-14, 13:05
If serious, Why suspend fine?
Who decided the player stays on? Who appoints this person?

The fine stance is to be applauded, to be robust the Dr's appointment or decisions can't be influenced by the clubs!.
It's a big call to suggest a doctor would not correctly fulfill his role and thus put his career in jeopardy. Regardless, this point does not bother me because there has been no issue so far, and quite frankly, the NRL seem to be taking a much tougher stance than any other sporting code. The point of the fine is to persuade teams to not cock up again - or they will be up for a new fine + the suspended part of the first fine.

http://www.nrl.com/concussion-guidelines-explained/tabid/10874/newsid/76791/default.aspx

Browner
12-05-14, 14:05
Looks good to me.

RobLev
12-05-14, 15:05
It's a big call to suggest a doctor would not correctly fulfill his role and thus put his career in jeopardy. ...

..and yet it looks very much like it happens in Union. Unless, of course, Fritz was simply feigning the symptoms of concussion.

crossref
12-05-14, 16:05
..and yet it looks very much like it happens in Union. Unless, of course, Fritz was simply feigning the symptoms of concussion.

it seems to only happen at the highest levels, with only our most important and valuable players put at risk.

MrQeu
12-05-14, 16:05
As a ST supporter, I found the actions of Novès to be disgusting.

As for Fritz, one can be inclined to believe he wasn't concussed, but just acting as his normal self.

SimonSmith
12-05-14, 17:05
It's a big call to suggest a doctor would not correctly fulfill his role and thus put his career in jeopardy. Regardless, this point does not bother me because there has been no issue so far, and quite frankly, the NRL seem to be taking a much tougher stance than any other sporting code. The point of the fine is to persuade teams to not cock up again - or they will be up for a new fine + the suspended part of the first fine.

http://www.nrl.com/concussion-guidelines-explained/tabid/10874/newsid/76791/default.aspx

Sadly RU has history in Doctors acting contrary to the interests of the 'patient'

Ian_Cook
13-05-14, 08:05
If there was any doubt that French pro rugby teams couldn't give a crap about player safety, and are perfectly happy for concussed players to carry on, check out this video of Florian Fritz getting wiped out in the T14 on Friday, but later being put back onto the field. To their credit, the iRB has asked the FFR to launch a full investigation (why did the FFR need to be asked?????), but the proof of the pudding will be in he sanction (if any) incurred.

http://balls.ie/rugby/video-florian-fritz-takes-serious-blow-to-the-head-still-returns/

FTFY

You won't see anything like that happening in this neck of the woods, in fact....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11241489

Browner
13-05-14, 09:05
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11241489

Browner applauds those coaches, and the journo.
.

Dixie
13-05-14, 11:05
FTFY

You won't see anything like that happening in this neck of the woods A bold statement, given the following two sentences in your link:

Actions haven't always supported words when it comes to the management of players with head knocks,

Rugby doesn't have a legacy of such bold and player-centric decision-making.

So in light of the fact that the decisions in this game (particularly that concerning Read) seem to buck what the journo has seen as the trend in NZ (and other) rugby, it is doubly to be applauded - but I suspect that only hubris could account for any suggestion that the problem is fixed on your side of the Tasman Sea

RobLev
13-05-14, 13:05
A bold statement, given the following two sentences in your link:

Actions haven't always supported words when it comes to the management of players with head knocks,

Rugby doesn't have a legacy of such bold and player-centric decision-making.

So in light of the fact that the decisions in this game (particularly that concerning Read) seem to buck what the journo has seen as the trend in NZ (and other) rugby, it is doubly to be applauded - but I suspect that only hubris could account for any suggestion that the problem is fixed on your side of the Tasman Sea

From:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/sport/8660698/The-school-of-hard-knocks

It looks as if Kiwi (like other countries) has had a problem, which the authorities are coming to grips with; last weekend's game shows it's going in the right direction. It's probably too early to say it's sorted.

Ian_Cook
13-05-14, 13:05
A bold statement, given the following two sentences in your link:

Actions haven't always supported words when it comes to the management of players with head knocks,

Rugby doesn't have a legacy of such bold and player-centric decision-making.

So in light of the fact that the decisions in this game (particularly that concerning Read) seem to buck what the journo has seen as the trend in NZ (and other) rugby, it is doubly to be applauded - but I suspect that only hubris could account for any suggestion that the problem is fixed on your side of the Tasman Sea


I repeat, you wont see this happening here. You likely would have seen it in the past, but you won't any longer.

Why?

Well, one of the advantages of our way of organising rugby in this country, is that the NZRU runs the whole show; they own all 26 Provinces and all five Super Rugby franchises; they own the contracts for all of the professional players, and their coaches and staff. For example, when the NZRU says, to the coaches and staff, there is an All Black training camp during such and such a week, you will release the players for that camp, the franchises comply.

http://www.allblacks.com/News/25009/players-named-to-attend-all-blacks-wider-training-group-camps

(Can you imagine PRL or the LNR allowing this to happen in your neck of the woods?)

If the NZRU tells the Provinces and Franchises that they will put player welfare first, and they will not risk player safety by playing them when concussion is suspected, then that is what they will do. End of story, no argument, no discussion.

The Florian Fritz incident graphically illustrates where the priorities of Top 14 team owners and coaches such as Guy Noves lie; winning first, player welfare second. IMO, this is just another aspect of the way that players in that competition are treated like disposable commodities. They are flogged endlessly for nearly 10 months of the year, forced to continue playing while carrying injuries, then if injury upon injury finally takes its inevitable toll in the form of a long term lay-off, the owner just pulls out the chequebook and buys another player to replace him. Its a fecking disgrace and it shouldn't be allowed. If this incident had happened here, I have no doubt that all those involved would be facing the severest of sanctions, and there would be sackings.

It is likely that, even if there is an investigation, and even if the FFR heavily fine Toulouse/Noves, it won't be big enough to deter them from doing it again. The owner will just open his chequebook and pay the fine. What needs to happen is a HUGE fine, like €5m, of which €100,000 is paid immediately, and the remainder is suspended to be paid if they violate the concussion protocol again.

winchesterref
30-05-14, 22:05
Two enlightening articles. Well done to the NZ Herald for getting it aired.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11264933

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11264856

Ian_Cook
31-05-14, 09:05
jonesy

Did you see this I posted a few days ago on grassroots concussions in the other concussion thread?


http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?17196-The-Grauniad-takes-aim-at-concussions&p=274677&highlight=#post274677

Browner
31-05-14, 12:05
Two enlightening articles. Well done to the NZ Herald for getting it aired.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11264933

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11264856

Its very very sad.

Complainers about the way the increase in head-on collisions (tackle/ruck) have been caused by Law change and referee acceptance been routinely labelled as a namby pamby softees.

On this subject all the past governmentarians have ' blood on their hands'.

We have arrived at this point in the game because of the increase in physical development of players AND the crash/bash/smash influence of RL and SHOWBIZ rugby IMO.

The cover up denial culture that existed among players/coaches/medics still exists today as we've seen in the last 12 months.

Unless I'm mistaken every union/irb has always claimed that it handles this subject robustly with player safety at the forefront, yet we now know this to be untrue. Sadly Hape & others are likely only the tip of the iceberg.

Browner
09-06-14, 18:06
Perhaps the beginning of the end of the IRB's unilaterally ownership of this subject in Rugby?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jun/09/labour-chris-bryant-concussion-fa-pfa-football-rugby

Ian_Cook
07-07-14, 08:07
Oh dear, not again!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11288633

winchesterref
07-07-14, 13:07
Oh dear, not again!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11288633

Awful for all involved, but sounds like it was dreadfully unfortunate, rather than a failing of the system?

Browner
22-07-14, 15:07
If there was any doubt that pro rugby teams couldn't give a crap about player safety, and are perfectly happy for concussed players to carry on, check out this video of Florian Fritz getting wiped out in the T14 on Friday, but later being put back onto the field. To their credit, the iRB has asked the FFR to launch a full investigation (why did the FFR need to be asked?????), but the proof of the pudding will be in he sanction (if any) incurred.

http://balls.ie/rugby/video-florian-fritz-takes-serious-blow-to-the-head-still-returns/

Still rumbling, with some interesting comments here http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9390673,00.html

leaguerefaus
22-07-14, 16:07
If you think rugby isn't taking concussion seriously...

A player on the field during the football World Cup Final last week, had to check with the referee if it was the final http://www.goal.com/en-au/news/4034/world-cup-2014/2014/07/18/4965365/kramer-forgot-it-was-the-world-cup-final-reveals-referee

Phil E
23-07-14, 09:07
Its not just rugby, or even sport.
There was something on the radio recently about a heavy metal fan who died of head injuries from head banging at a concert.
The affect was said to be like a concussion from having his brain forcibly thrown around inside his head.

Ian_Cook
23-07-14, 10:07
Its not just rugby, or even sport.
There was something on the radio recently about a heavy metal fan who died of head injuries from head banging at a concert.
The affect was said to be like a concussion from having his brain forcibly thrown around inside his head.


Probably similar to inflicted traumatic brain injury (a.k.a. "shaken baby syndrome")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaken_baby_syndrome

ChrisR
30-07-14, 00:07
2947

Going over some pics from PlanetRugby to demonstrate good tackle technique I came across this. Thought it belonged in the concussion discussion. Anyone know who the referee was? How did he get himself in this position? What happened next?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
30-07-14, 14:07
2947

Going over some pics from PlanetRugby to demonstrate good tackle technique I came across this. Thought it belonged in the concussion discussion. Anyone know who the referee was? How did he get himself in this position? What happened next?

Christophe Berdos perhaps?

Dixie
30-07-14, 16:07
2947

Going over some pics from PlanetRugby to demonstrate good tackle technique I came across this. Thought it belonged in the concussion discussion. Anyone know who the referee was? How did he get himself in this position? What happened next? I'd guess that the ref had received a shove in the back by the Red player whose leg and arm appears on the left of the picture, as a result of which he was off balance and possibly endangered by Nick Easter's knee. However, long lenses have a severe foreshortening effect, and it's possible that the ref is in fact in absolutely no danger at this point.

Browner
29-09-14, 15:09
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2766600/Tom-Youngs-ruled-England-s-autumn-internationals-shoulder-surgery-Geoff-Parling-s-career-line-repeated-concussions.html

In addition to RC recount of post 6N instances I also recall this... "Geoff Parling has been withdrawn (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24707263) from England's team to play Australia on Saturday because of a "mild concussion"
November 2013 .

L'irlandais
04-10-14, 23:10
...Thought it belonged in the concussion discussion. Anyone ... What happened next?Are we sure it's Christophe Berdos?
He has previously take control of Gloucester v Harlequins (http://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/match_report/0,20244,12549_48222_1,00.html) on 19th November 2011 ; when Quins virtually "kicked" Gloucester out of the Heineken Cup. Referee not mentioned in despatches though, so probaly a thing of nothing. Had he been concussed, or even just bowled over it'd have been headline news.

Browner
05-11-14, 00:11
http://balls.ie/rugby/video-florian-fritz-takes-serious-blow-to-the-head-still-returns/


Still rumbling, with some interesting comments here http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9390673,00.html

& the conclusion was. ................ http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,3551_9462663,00.html

As expected :shrug:

Browner
05-11-14, 01:11
An old ruggar mate of mine rings to ask my advice, this scenario gave me a shudder.

His Son playing U17s gets knocked out cold, he's out for c 10-15 seconds. Leaves the field and does not participate in match further.

Dad says he's kept an eye on him, but has heard 'horror stories' and wants to know what he should do if anything.
Curious, I ask what Post-concussion advice he got from the Coach in charge after the match?

None he replies. Neither the Coach (a RFU Community Rugby Coach - believed to be at least L2 possibly L3 and holding the post for c.8 yrs) nor the assistant coach Level 1 gave him any advise or guidance or direction to RFU guidance or Head case campaign or RFU "return to game protocols" etc , neither has he rung the dad since.:wtf:

I'd like to say I was shocked, but in truth I wasn't. :mad:

I'd love to be able to establish how many 'concussion' discussions/presentations this RFU CRC has been involved in, & my money is on him having a 'headcase' branded beenie hat and lanyard ! :knuppel2:

I've given my old buddy the advice he needed earlier. What can i say .......:shrug:

Ian_Cook
05-11-14, 01:11
http://balls.ie/rugby/video-florian-fritz-takes-serious-blow-to-the-head-still-returns/



& the conclusion was. ................ http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,3551_9462663,00.html

As expected :shrug:


Shit, this really, really pisses me off

"The conclusion of the expert report is that the concussion protocol was not applied as it should be," said LNR chief Paul Goze told AFP.
"Following this, a letter will be sent to the president of the club to remind him of the obligations of this protocol."

Goze added that there would be no punishment because the case was given a much higher profile than other concussion incidents last season.


"The Fritz case was highly publicised, everyone was antagonised by the incident because it was in a playoff game," added Goze.

"There were other incidents in the season, so there's no reason to punish a club because it happened under a bigger spotlight than another."

It doesn't matter a fvck how important the game was or what sort of spotlight it was under! They broke the iRB protocol, and Guy Noves should have had the book thrown at him.

OB..
05-11-14, 12:11
What was the excuse for not punishing the lower profile cases?

Browner
05-11-14, 13:11
What was the excuse for not punishing the lower profile cases?

Appetite ?

RobLev
05-11-14, 14:11
What was the excuse for not punishing the lower profile cases?

They were looking the other way?

No-one thought it important enough to bring a charge?

tim White
05-11-14, 19:11
I Observed a L9 game last week when two players were respectfully substituted after knockouts; credit to referee and coaches involved.

I hope some professionals read this post and take the lesson on board.

ChrisR
05-11-14, 22:11
Tim, after a KO it's a no-brainer.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
05-11-14, 23:11
Tim, after a KO it's a no-brainer.

Good sentiments poor choice of words perhaps? :biggrin:

Ian_Cook
06-11-14, 02:11
Tim, after a KO it's a no-brainer.


Tell that to Florian Fritz/Guy Noves and George Smith/Robbie Deans.

Browner
06-11-14, 07:11
An old ruggar mate of mine rings to ask my advice, this scenario gave me a shudder.

His Son playing U17s gets knocked out cold, he's out for c 10-15 seconds. Leaves the field and does not participate in match further.

Dad says he's kept an eye on him, but has heard 'horror stories' and wants to know what he should do if anything.
Curious, I ask what Post-concussion advice he got from the Coach in charge after the match?

None he replies. Neither the Coach (a RFU Community Rugby Coach - believed to be at least L2 possibly L3 and holding the post for c.8 yrs) nor the assistant coach Level 1 gave him any advise or guidance or direction to RFU guidance or Head case campaign or RFU "return to game protocols" etc , neither has he rung the dad since.:wtf:

I'd like to say I was shocked, but in truth I wasn't. :mad:

I'd love to be able to establish how many 'concussion' discussions/presentations this RFU CRC has been involved in, & my money is on him having a 'headcase' branded beenie hat and lanyard ! :knuppel2:

I've given my old buddy the advice he needed earlier. What can i say .......:shrug:

Comment avoidance !!!!!!?????

L'irlandais
06-11-14, 19:11
What was the excuse for not punishing the lower profile cases?OB..
I suspect it's because the French League need support of it's clubs just now.

Earlier this week the French league had their 5 year TV rights contract torn up by a court of appeal.
The behind closed doors negociation with Canal+ was ruled an anti-competitive practice.
They will have to tender the contract again next April, when BeIn Sports will make an offer. So the world's richest league, just shot themselves in the foot with the £60 million x 5 seasons deal. If BeIn bring more money to the table, it's the punters in France will end up paying that "extra money" thru' pay-per-view TV.


Compare to Premiership's £38 million x 4 years deal with BT. I've linked the source article in another thread...

crossref
14-11-14, 12:11
Courtney Lawes has passed his concussion tests
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11230189/Englands-Courtney-Lawes-passed-fit-to-play-against-South-Africa-after-concussion.html

Anyone heard of any recent example of an elite player failing the tests?

Phil E
14-11-14, 12:11
Courtney Lawes has passed his concussion tests
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11230189/Englands-Courtney-Lawes-passed-fit-to-play-against-South-Africa-after-concussion.html

Anyone heard of any recent example of an elite player failing the tests?

They shouldn't fail the tests, because if all the protocols are observed (time off etc), then they will be fit and ready to pass the test, before they take it.....if you see what I mean?

FlipFlop
14-11-14, 12:11
Courtney admitted he failed it on Saturday. So he didn't return to the game.

Then he has gone through the graduated return to playing process.

This has got to be better than numerous examples we have seen where the player has been allowed to play on despite clearly being not fit!

SimonSmith
14-11-14, 13:11
Called the trainer on last Saturday.
"I've taken a look at him; I'm not convinced he's OK, so I'd welcome a second opinion"

(Also brings a break to a hot tempered match)

She asks him what the score is. Eejit looks at the scoreboard, so that's no help.
Count the months backwards from December.
"December...November........ ......... ......... ........ ....... October"

"You're done. Skipper, make the change"
Player starts protesting. The captain then informs me that he is an engineer, and is genuinely that slow. No matter. Offski.

Browner
14-11-14, 14:11
Courtney admitted he failed it on Saturday. So he didn't return to the game.

Then he has gone through the graduated return to playing process.

This has got to be better than numerous examples we have seen where the player has been allowed to play on despite clearly being not fit!

I wonder if ( as per GRTP) the coach has considered addressing
- tackle technique
- playing style
:biggrin:

Shelflife
14-11-14, 14:11
A recent event with my old club.

Player takes a bang, ref says youre done for the day. player protests that hes grand etc etc, ref insists- off he goes.

match over player goes home, wife heads out for a few with her mates, player rings her later to say hes not feeling great. She comes home and finds him unconcious on the floor. An ambulance is called and player spends two days in hospital.

Thankfully all ok, player chatting to another ref from the club says to make sure and thank the ref for not lettting him back on. lucky escape.

Phil E
14-11-14, 15:11
Count the months backwards from December.
"December...November........ ......... ......... ........ ....... October"

I couldn't do that.......concussion or no concussion!!

crossref
14-11-14, 15:11
A recent event with my old club.

Player takes a bang, ref says youre done for the day. player protests that hes grand etc etc, ref insists- off he goes.

match over player goes home, wife heads out for a few with her mates, player rings her later to say hes not feeling great. She comes home and finds him unconcious on the floor. An ambulance is called and player spends two days in hospital.

Thankfully all ok, player chatting to another ref from the club says to make sure and thank the ref for not lettting him back on. lucky escape.

i was impressed at a match I refereed earlier this season, a player got a bang to head and was forced to leave the pitch in exactly the typical way - he felt he was OK to play, but clearly wasn't. He was forced off by his capt and coach .. I didn't need to intervene.

after the game I witnessed the capt making sure he had transport home, that he wouldn't be alone, and phoning the player's girlfriend to brief her about incidents like this, and making sure he wouldn't be on his own.
I was impressed.

Chogan
14-11-14, 16:11
Game up North (Ulster).
3 incidents where players had to leave the pitch. 2 from the home team and 1 away.
Post match I overheard some home club suits rounding up the 3 men to be taken to hospital as the club doc wasn't at the match.
Away team were facing a 4-5 hour trip home so I'm not sure if the away player ended up going with them.

tim White
14-11-14, 17:11
he is an engineer, and is genuinely that slow.

Oi! :=

ChrisR
14-11-14, 18:11
Advice for youth coaches.

Enlist the parents of your players to be the monitor for their children after contact. Most of the time as the ball moves away from the tackle/ruck so does the attention of the coach. Not so the parents. They tend to focus more on their kid.

I ask them to alert me immediately if their player seems dazed, slow or simply takes a step sideways. The parent is usually the one person with most concern for player safety and the first to recognize that something is amiss with Joey.

Ian_Cook
14-11-14, 20:11
Courtney Lawes has passed his concussion tests
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11230189/Englands-Courtney-Lawes-passed-fit-to-play-against-South-Africa-after-concussion.html

Anyone heard of any recent example of an elite player failing the tests?


Kieran Read

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/10549622/Concussion-was-tough-hurdle-for-Kieran-Read

L'irlandais
14-11-14, 21:11
I couldn't do that.......concussion or no concussion!!I am with Phil on this. Unless you asked the player in question, to do as much before the game ; what comparasion can you possibly hope to draw from his being unable to do so after an incident? None! You will be none the wiser as to whether the player is concussed or not.

SimonSmith
15-11-14, 00:11
Throw in the fact that he'd been kicked in the head by accident, and my AR had miked in that he had appeared dazed when getting up...

I feel good about the decision.

L'irlandais
15-11-14, 15:11
Not criticising your decision at all.

Former IRB medical chief (http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/190715.html) has discredited the pitchside assessment.


Questions: At what venue are we today? Which half is it now? Who scored last in this match? What team did you play last game? Did your team win the last game? or even the classic "How many fingers am I holding up?" These tell us little of the player's state.

If in doubt send them off.

OB..
15-11-14, 23:11
Not criticising your decision at all.

Former IRB medical chief (http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/190715.html) has discredited the pitchside assessment.


If in doubt send them off.So presumably the CURRENT medical chief thinks differently?

L'irlandais
17-11-14, 19:11
Well, that's why Dr. 'O Driscoll resigned ; because the iRB (or should we say "World Rugby" already?) refused to treat the matter with the seriousness it deserves. I think his resignation may have bucked them up a little.

L'irlandais
18-11-14, 20:11
IRB's new Chief Medical Officer Martin Rafferty is taking things seriously, by all accounts.
IRFU article (http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/33036.php#.VGuTOiFMvcs)
However the professional game still has the (discredited) PSCA protocol. :(
As far as I know, there is No injury assessment, nor PSCA (Pitch Side concussion Assessment) in the amateur game (in IRFU-land)

Browner
05-01-15, 23:01
I find myself applauding Saracens on this one :clap:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30671380

Others to follow?

Browner
06-01-15, 16:01
I find myself applauding Saracens on this one :clap:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30671380

Others to follow?

Actually, this has set me thinking .......

What IF the data that is collected from these sensors is 'damning' ?
How would the sport cope, or would data discrediting become the agenda :chin:

ChrisR
06-01-15, 22:01
Regarding temporary replacement for concussion assessment.

From the IRB (World Rugby) site, Law 3.

LAW AMENDMENT TRIAL

Temporary replacement - head injury assessment

In all situations, if there are any indications of concussion a player MUST be removed from play. This is known as Recognise and Remove.

For tournaments and matches approved by the Union or Rugby body having jurisdiction and with trained healthcare professionals, a temporary replacement may be used for a player who has a head injury where the diagnosis is unclear.
(a)
When a player leaves the field to have a head injury assessment that player may be temporarily replaced. If the player who has been temporarily replaced does not return to the field of play within ten minutes (actual time) of leaving the playing area, the replacement becomes permanent and the replaced player must not return to the field of play.
(b)
The player must be presented to a match official on the touchline within the prescribed time period.
(c)
If a head injury assessment starts within ten minutes of half time, the player must return to play immediately after half time or the replacement becomes permanent.
(d)
A player who temporarily replaces a player who is being assessed at the pitch side for head injury must not take penalty kicks at goal or conversion kicks.
(e)
If the temporary replacement is injured, that player may also be replaced.
(f)
If the temporary replacement is sent off for foul play, the replaced player may not return to the field of play.
(g)
If the temporary replacement is cautioned and temporarily suspended, the replaced player may not return to the field of play until after the period of suspension.

So, Simon Smith, I assume USA Rugby will adjust, as will our SRO.

SimonSmith
07-01-15, 01:01
I wouldn't hold your breath based on what I'm hearing.

Browner
16-01-15, 14:01
"in the past fortnight the first study into the frequency and magnitude of head impacts in rugby union has been published , by Auckland University "

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/jan/11/saracens-x-patches-sean-ingle

One stat caught my eye,


High school American footballers suffer around 16 to 29 impacts per game which is far fewer than those experienced by rugby players in the study. .

a myth-busting stat?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
16-01-15, 15:01
"in the past fortnight the first study into the frequency and magnitude of head impacts in rugby union has been published , by Auckland University "

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/jan/11/saracens-x-patches-sean-ingle

One stat caught my eye,

.

a myth-busting stat?

I would have thought the offensive and defensive linemen in AF would have a head impact at every snap? (to a greater or lesser extent) Praps not?

Browner
16-01-15, 15:01
Averages?

Phil E
16-01-15, 16:01
I would have thought the offensive and defensive linemen in AF would have a head impact at every snap? (to a greater or lesser extent) Praps not?

But they only play about half a game each?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
16-01-15, 16:01
But they only play about half a game each?

Do American High School Football teams have the same stupid numbers as the Professional Teams - knowing them they probaly do

Browner
16-01-15, 17:01
Do American High School Football teams have the same stupid numbers as the Professional Teams - knowing them they probaly do
:offtopic:

OB..
16-01-15, 17:01
:offtopic:No, it affects the basis of the statistics. What matters is the number of significant impacts per unit of time, and if teams have a large squad, playing time for individual players is much reduced.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
16-01-15, 17:01
:offtopic:

Just say I don't know.

ChrisR
16-01-15, 17:01
Numbers? The numbers on the shirts? They are generally associated with the player's position.

Or do you mean numbers, as in the quantity of players on each team? That will vary by school but yes, absurdly large rosters and not every player on the roster will get into the game.

It's difficult trying to compare American football to rugby except on an injury per action minute played.

I'm not sure of my numbers but from an hour of football (over an elapsed time of twice that long or more) you get about 12-15 minutes of action. But in each of those minutes most of the players will be be in contact. Mostly a lot of pushing & pulling (the linemen) but some high impact collisions (running backs and linebackers). If you're a running back you may get hit hard 30-40 times a game (carrying or blocking) by multiple opponents. Linebackers (flanker equivalent) will tackle or get blocked about every play.

Browner
16-01-15, 17:01
No, it affects the basis of the statistics. What matters is the number of significant impacts per unit of time, and if teams have a large squad, playing time for individual players is much reduced.

Oh i see, you're discreditting the comparison ( ?)

ChrisR
16-01-15, 20:01
Oh i see, you're discreditting the comparison ( ?)

Sighs, shakes head, yawns and moves on. Nothing to read here.

Camquin
18-01-15, 21:01
If there are the same number of collisions in a game of Rugby and one of American Football, then the number of collisions per player is going to higher for the 15 + 5 subs Rugby players than the 50+ American Football players.

I was surprised there are over 1000 collisions in a game of Rugby. That is 13 collisions a minute every minute.

However is is not 77 collisions per player, it is 72 per position (I assume that is a simple typo) . Assuming 5 subs that is an average of 54 per player - still worryingly high.

Also Rugby players play more games in a season - 19 in NZ, up to 30 in England national leagues. Whereas US high schools have a 10 week season plus playoffs. NCAA 13 or 14 games main season with half the teams playing in a bowl game. NFL a 16 week regular season.

Camquin
And I doubt they are equally distributed in either sport. We all know about the 9 and 10 in pristine shirts while the pack are covered with mud.

Blackberry
08-02-15, 11:02
There was a young lad in my game yesterday who was dumped unceremoniously onto his back when trying to tackle the ball carrier. He appeared to bang the back of his head and was a dazed so his team carried him off and let him lie on the bank by the pitch, wrapped up and looking a bit like a dazed caterpillar. After about 10 minutes I noticed he was still sitting by himself so at the next break I asked for people to keep an eye on him.

At half time he was back on his feet, so I asked him how he was. Much better he said, he had felt nauseous and for a while his hands were tingling, but now he was on his way to speak to the captain about coming back on.

"Woah tiger" I said, "there is no way you re playing rugby again today, you're going to sit this one out" The blood runs fast at 17 and this lad certainly did not like this call one bit. He wasn't petulant, stroppy, just frustrated, and started to argue the toss that he felt alright. "Look mate" I interjected ,"you've got the heart of a lion, but the brain of a starfish if you think anyone here is going to let you risk playing this afternoon".

Despite his huge disappointment he bit his lip and kept his counsel, and even gave me a wave as I drove out the car park later... I think it was a wave. The point of this story though is the general and immediate acceptance that he was not coming on again after a head injury, despite the high profile case of George North coming back on the pitch only the evening before.

crossref
08-02-15, 11:02
agree. we have reached a situation where concussion is handled well at all levels of rugby.... except the top level

Blackberry
08-02-15, 12:02
agree. we have reached a situation where concussion is handled well at all levels of rugby.... except the top level

You've said it all...and much more concisely than me :)

Blackberry
08-02-15, 12:02
On a different tack, using the law of unintended consequences, could it ever happen that...

If we tighten up on letting people with head injuries come back...... the idiots amongst the rugby community could target key players with head blows? Nothing must stop us getting this right, but we should also be on the look out for knock on effects.

Waspsfan
08-02-15, 12:02
I don't see that as an issue. If the head is targeted illegally - high tackle, punch, swinging arm, tip tackle etc then the players will be suitably punished and we have the necessary armoury to prevent that (YC, RC, citings, bans). If they legally 'target' a key opposition player by sending big ball carriers down his channel and making sure he gets nailed each time he carries - well that's what rugby is all about! Game on!

Browner
09-02-15, 16:02
Well said that man, blinded eye-my arse.

Keen to increase his loyal twitter following in the principality!, BCM takes a 'Knock em when they're down' approach ..........

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/six-nations-2015-former-england-8605820

SimonSmith
09-02-15, 17:02
Which bits in his piece do you take issue with?

I'm not English and I largely agree with him.

Browner
09-02-15, 17:02
Well said this man, blinded eye welsh-my arse were they.

Keen to increase his loyal twitter following in the principality! ( this was a naaaaat joke, that forgot to include naaaaattttt at the end) BCM takes a 'Knock em when they're down' approach ..........

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/six-nations-2015-former-england-8605820

Better???

L'irlandais
10-02-15, 19:02
Which bits in his piece do you take issue with?

I'm not English and I largely agree with him.I agree. Brian Moore is spot on to speak out on the matter. How can the Welsh medical staff say they didn't see (the second knock North took) when the whole stadium was aware of it? Thankfully the IRFU were treating concussion correctly (http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/2015/0209/678979-kearney-best-concussion-treated-correctly/) last weekend ; for a change.

Pegleg
10-02-15, 22:02
Moore is right that there is no room for partisan comment. What we saw was poor.

However, none of us know what the medics or the management saw. We are told that they did not see it and WR have accepted that and the provision of replay that apparently were not available at the time will now be made available to the medics via new laptops.

We can all be cynical. good knows I can be. But we can prove nothing just like Moore can not say that there wa obviously a concussion the second time. Again we are told the tests have proved negative.

One way to resolve this is a WR appointed INDEPENDENT "Concussion Quack" at all games. He / she makes the call and not an employee of either union involved in the game.

Browner
31-03-15, 14:03
Re: George Norths latest concussion


. World Rugby (IRB) concussion advisor Professor Willie Stewart said that 22-year-old North needs to be given an extended period of rest to figure out if this is something that he has just not recovered from, or whether there are genuine issues.
"I think he personally needs to say, 'No, I'm not playing again this season'. If he does play again too soon it could be the end of his World Cup or even his career," explained Stewart.

"The people looking after him, including Northampton and the Welsh Rugby Union, should be recommending some time out and the experts he is seeing should recommend some time out. No-one should be talking about playing him next week. That's just ridiculous."I know at this time of year we're getting into the thick of it for trophies and championships but it's also getting into the sharp end for George's brain. I would be surprised if he makes another appearance," he added.
But Willie, thats one of the key issues, players havent demonstrated self assessment skills !!

Phil E
31-03-15, 15:03
Re: George Norths latest concussion


But Willie, thats one of the key issues, players havent demonstrated self assessment skills !!


How can they.............................they have concussion!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Browner
31-03-15, 16:03
Re: George Norths latest concussion


But Willie, thats one of the key issues, players havent demonstrated post match repeat concussions risk awareness understanding -

FTFMe..

Ian_Cook
24-05-15, 06:05
Here is a brief look at the sideline concussion monitoring unit that will allow match doctors to immediately review what has happened to a player.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdB-JLI9FpQ

The protocol used here is that the team doctors and the match doctor (a doctor appointed by the SANZAR/NZRU and not associated with either team) will be able to see in real time, and immediately review, any incident. They can then can order a suspected concussed player to be removed for testing or removed permanently.

Hopefully, this will prevent any recurrence of the Hohneck incident, and prevent what happened in Top 14 when Guy Noves pressured his team doctor to get a concussed Florian Fritz back on the field. Once the match doctor has made a ruling that a player is concussed, he is off limits to the coach

Browner
26-06-15, 10:06
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/horse-racing/33255079

Brave? Reckless? Admirable? Or half a loaf short of a full picnic? Or all + others ???

It probably comes under the heading of 'if he's fully informed, then its entirely his choice'