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j3ref
20-11-13, 21:11
Red 10 chips over blue back line into blue 22. Red 12 reaches ball first kicking it along ground into in goal. Blue 15 reaches ball first this time and, looking rather uncertain about what to do, stoops over ball (his back to the opposition) as though intending to pick it up, whilst his team mates yell "touch it down". Blue 15 has touched the ball whilst it is on the ground, but he hasn't picked up the ball and touched it down again, and it isn't clear to me that he has applied any downward pressure. He stands up again looking confused. No knock-on. If anything ball moves towards dead ball line. The blue 15's action looks to me like a failed/aborted attempt to pick up the ball rather than a proper touch down. Split seconds later, red 12 comes steaming in and dives on the ball. I awarded the try because I felt that blue 15 had not completed a touch down - more of a failed/aborted attempt to pick up the ball. Blue team not happy. I explain my view of things and we carry on. Any thoughts?

crossref
20-11-13, 22:11
There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.12
(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

He didn't do (a)
Did he manage (b)?

It does say he has to 'press down' but to me the way you describe it sounds as if you are possibly technically correct... but a bit harsh?

I wonder what the attacking players were expecting you to give? I often think that if all thirty players are expecting a particular decision, thats most likely the best decision to give...

j3ref
20-11-13, 22:11
Thanks. Yes, I came away from the match feeling that I could justify the decision, but that it could also be viewed as harsh. It really was a scenario where I felt it was necessary to consider what I believe was the intention of the blue player to pick up the ball. If he had succeeded in picking up the ball, and had run the length of the pitch to score, my job would have been a whole lot easier! There was little reaction from spectators and coaches to the decision - I'm guessing because they could see that the fullback wasn't sure of what he was doing in this instance!

crossref
20-11-13, 23:11
And I am not saying you necessarily made the wrong decision . At the end of the day you have to see it to call it.. And you saw it... And called it

OB..
21-11-13, 02:11
I often think that if all thirty players are expecting a particular decision, thats most likely the best decision to give...You should give the decision that your experience and training tells you is correct. Players are often wrong, eg "Let him up".

thepercy
21-11-13, 02:11
Why didn't you ask the TMO?:tongue:

Dickie E
21-11-13, 03:11
I remember this happening once when I was playing. I pressed down on the ball in-goal then picked it up to trot out to the 22. An opponent took the ball out of my hands and scored the "try". I wonder if I had a confused look on my face too. :shrug:

The Fat
21-11-13, 07:11
You should give the decision that your experience and training tells you is correct. Players are often wrong, eg "Let him up" .

A la Phil Kearns whilst commentating during the Wallabies v Italy game.
Aaaaarrrrrrgggghhhh!!!!

Browner
21-11-13, 11:11
grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.

is it possible to ground the ball without there being any downward pressure?, ie...physics?

Jacko
21-11-13, 12:11
is it possible to ground the ball without there being any downward pressure?, ie...physics?

I don't think so.

Browner
21-11-13, 12:11
]a failed/aborted attempt to pick up the ball.[/B]

It's entirely possible that a failed attempt to pick up the ball, could still be a grounding.

The Lesson for players is to help the referee decide in your favour by making it C&O.

Dixie
21-11-13, 13:11
is it possible to ground the ball without there being any downward pressure?, ie...physics?


I don't think so. I disagree. Grass 1" long. I (defender) running parallel to DBL, need to stop the rolling ball going dead, in order to launch a last-ditch attack. I dive to catch the ball, and to avoid grounding it I keep my hands under the ball, fingers splayed. As I slide along the deck, the back of my hands touch the ground. The top 1/2" of each blade of grass hits the ball; and one end of the ball just touches the soil for a fraction of a second. The ball has been grounded. In case of doubt, make me a rather stupid attacker - why is this not a try?


It's entirely possible that a failed attempt to pick up the ball, could still be a grounding.

The Lesson for players is to help the referee decide in your favour by making it C&O. This

OB..
21-11-13, 15:11
is it possible to ground the ball without there being any downward pressure?, ie...physics?Hold the ball in one hand, palm upwards. Place the back of your hand on the ground and let the ball tilt so that part of it touches the ground. You are applying no downward force yourself, just allowing gravity to do its stuff.

You may choose to argue that you are applying a minuscule force, but the point that really matters is the distinction from the case where you are not holding the ball: then you must clearly apply a downward force, not just touch the ball.

leaguerefaus
21-11-13, 15:11
Let physics dictate forward passes but not groundings please! ;)

thepercy
21-11-13, 16:11
Let physics dictate forward passes but not groundings please! ;)

Do the laws of physics supersede the laws of rugby?

leaguerefaus
21-11-13, 16:11
Do the laws of physics supersede the laws of rugby?

If you didn't understand what I meant then I doubt you would understand a further explanation, sorry.

crossref
21-11-13, 16:11
You should give the decision that your experience and training tells you is correct. Players are often wrong, eg "Let him up".

if all 30 players believe they have to let him up, then they'll just let him up .... and no offence committed and I'll smile to myself and play on.


I wouldn't be be frightened to make a decision that all thirty players disagreed with, but it's hard to think of a scenario where that would happen.

In practice if all 30 players think one thing, and the referee has another view, I am guessing something has gone badly wrong.

Browner
21-11-13, 17:11
Hold the ball in one hand, palm upwards. Place the back of your hand on the ground and let the ball tilt so that part of it touches the ground. You are applying no downward force yourself, just allowing gravity to do its stuff.


I'd suggest you are applying a minuscule force :pepper:

Browner
21-11-13, 17:11
I disagree. Grass 1" long. I (defender) running parallel to DBL, need to stop the rolling ball going dead, in order to launch a last-ditch attack. I dive to catch the ball, and to avoid grounding it I keep my hands under the ball, fingers splayed. As I slide along the deck, the back of my hands touch the ground. The top 1/2" of each blade of grass hits the ball; and one end of the ball just touches the soil for a fraction of a second. The ball has been grounded. In case of doubt, make me a rather stupid attacker - why is this not a try?

This
That minuscule force again :pepper:

Or maybe you're saying that grass isn't the same as ground/soil/sod, when it comes to grounding !

OB..
21-11-13, 17:11
Hold the ball in one hand, palm upwards. Place the back of your hand on the ground and let the ball tilt so that part of it touches the ground. You are applying no downward force yourself, just allowing gravity to do its stuff.

You may choose to argue that you are applying a minuscule force, but the point that really matters is the distinction from the case where you are not holding the ball: then you must clearly apply a downward force, not just touch the ball.



I'd suggest you are applying a minuscule force :pepper:



I already dealt with that point. The suggestion is pointless.

thepercy
21-11-13, 17:11
22.2 Picking up the ball from the ground is not grounding it. A player may pick up the ball in the in-goal and ground it elsewhere in the in-goal.

Is an attempt to pick the ball up (even with some downward pressure) treated the same as picking the ball up?

OB..
21-11-13, 18:11
In practice if all 30 players think one thing, and the referee has another view, I am guessing something has gone badly wrong.I had this once, as I have mentioned before. A scrumhalf who had never played the position before picked up the ball which was on the "wrong" side of the scrum and went to feed it in from that side. The TH stopped him and he went to change sides, but I did not allow it. From discussion afterwards in the bar I think I was the only person on the pitch who knew that bit of law, but I didn't take a 30-man poll.

More recently a team tried to put a player back on after he had been knocked out and then gone off looking very dazed. They insisted that the referee could not over-rule their physio. He refused their arguments.

Presumably those who benefit from your decision would not complain, so you won't know if they think you are wrong.

By all means check up later, so that you know for next time. However the basic point is that you must referee according to what you think, not according to what you think that they think.

(Curiously enough, if you were wrong and they were right, I'd criticise you for being wrong, but applaud you for sticking to your decision. As long as you didn't do it again next time I saw you.)

crossref
21-11-13, 18:11
the first one is a pretty good example (although in reality if you had let it ride, somewhere on the pitch was bound to be a player or two who notice that you don't know the Law... so good on you for sticking to it).

in the OP it was one of fact - if actually both teams thought he had made the touchdown, and the referee was the odd one out, I'd wonder if he had made the right deicsion. In practice no doubt the opinions of the players were evenly divided, and the referee made the call -- which is what he is there for.

What would you do if the only ball avaialble was under the pressure prescribed by Law, but all the players were OK to play with it?

barker14610
21-11-13, 20:11
Were you in-goal for the call? Do a little salesmanship and all is well if you are right there.

Dickie E
21-11-13, 20:11
Ball is stationary in-goal. Defender charges at the the ball and deliberately knocks it with his hand over the deadball line. I would have to assume that the ball remains in contact with the grass momentarily as the ball is knocked. Penalty or touch-down?

Ian_Cook
21-11-13, 21:11
If you didn't understand what I meant then I doubt you would understand a further explanation, sorry.


Yep.

"Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

- Samuel Johnston



Ball is stationary in-goal. Defender charges at the the ball and deliberately knocks it with his hand over the deadball line. I would have to assume that the ball remains in contact with the grass momentarily as the ball is knocked. Penalty or touch-down?

Pressing or downards slapping action, ball squeezed out like an orange pip over DBL? Touchdown

Scooping action and ball goes over DBL? PK (and possible PT depending on proximity of defenders/attackers)

Punching action and ball goes over DBL? PK (and possible PT depending on proximity of defenders/attackers)

Intent is key!!

Rushforth
21-11-13, 22:11
Intent is key!!

So Ian, you are not even vaguely interested in 22.11? Let alone 22.9 - you seem to be completely ignorant of what players actually do, but then again you seem to be full of yourself.

For my own part, I have not once seen a player scoop or punch the ball over the DBL, nor a PT awarded, but then again, I'm only approaching 100 games reffed and 1000 experienced (ok, more on both, but not that much), and the closest I can recall was a PT for deliberately knocking the ball into touch by a player on the ground about 3 yards out of goal in 1988.

In other words, you are bullshitting again, because not a single defender in the history of rugby has attempted to NOT ground a ball brought in there deliberately. But I will bow to your experience as to idiocy, should you so wish.

andyscott
21-11-13, 23:11
Bloody hell, if he touches it, Peep grounded, simples, take the easiest route for you as a ref.

Dickie E
21-11-13, 23:11
In other words, you are bullshitting again, because not a single defender in the history of rugby has attempted to NOT ground a ball brought in there deliberately. But I will bow to your experience as to idiocy, should you so wish.

I have seen half a dozen occurrences where a defender has intentionally batted the ball over the DBL. Possibly because it is OK to do in RL.

Jacko
22-11-13, 00:11
In other words, you are bullshitting again, because not a single defender in the history of rugby has attempted to NOT ground a ball brought in there deliberately. But I will bow to your experience as to idiocy, should you so wish.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2009/12/1214/slaphappy-karmichael-hunt-learns-the-hard-way

The video has been removed due to copyright, but the text explains it well enough.

TigerCraig
22-11-13, 00:11
For my own part, I have not once seen a player scoop or punch the ball over the DBL, nor a PT awarded, but then again, I'm only approaching 100 games reffed and 1000 experienced (ok, more on both, but not that much), and the closest I can recall was a PT for deliberately knocking the ball into touch by a player on the ground about 3 yards out of goal in 1988.

In other words, you are bullshitting again, because not a single defender in the history of rugby has attempted to NOT ground a ball brought in there deliberately. But I will bow to your experience as to idiocy, should you so wish.

I've given more yellow cards (with penalty try) for this over the last 3 years than for any other single reason

Standard practice for leaguies

menace
22-11-13, 00:11
So Ian, you are not even vaguely interested in 22.11? Let alone 22.9 - you seem to be completely ignorant of what players actually do, but then again you seem to be full of yourself.

For my own part, I have not once seen a player scoop or punch the ball over the DBL, nor a PT awarded, but then again, I'm only approaching 100 games reffed and 1000 experienced (ok, more on both, but not that much), and the closest I can recall was a PT for deliberately knocking the ball into touch by a player on the ground about 3 yards out of goal in 1988.

In other words, you are bullshitting again, because not a single defender in the history of rugby has attempted to NOT ground a ball brought in there deliberately. But I will bow to your experience as to idiocy, should you so wish.

Rushforth, I'm not in the habit of supporting our 'over the ditch' sporting foes, but I think you are seriously out of line with that response. Regardless of what you think of Ian from previous pissing contests you've had with him, that IMO was unnecessary.

Like dickie says above, I too have seen it a couple of times where a player deliberately knocks or bats the ball from in-goal over the dead ball line. Usually these players are rugby league converts, where such actions in-goal are permitted to prevent a try. (In RL the player who makes the ball dead matters, not who put it in-goal). The few times I've had it happen, I've never given a PT, but using some player empathy I have given a PK (as there was no oppo close enough that could have scored), and on other occasions I've let it go and had a word with the offender to let them know not to do it again (as the ball was just about to roll over the dead ball line anyway and there was no one in cooee).

SimonSmith
22-11-13, 00:11
So Ian, you are not even vaguely interested in 22.11? Let alone 22.9 - you seem to be completely ignorant of what players actually do, but then again you seem to be full of yourself.

For my own part, I have not once seen a player scoop or punch the ball over the DBL, nor a PT awarded, but then again, I'm only approaching 100 games reffed and 1000 experienced (ok, more on both, but not that much), and the closest I can recall was a PT for deliberately knocking the ball into touch by a player on the ground about 3 yards out of goal in 1988.

In other words, you are bullshitting again, because not a single defender in the history of rugby has attempted to NOT ground a ball brought in there deliberately. But I will bow to your experience as to idiocy, should you so wish.

A couple of points here:

1.I have refereed considerably more games than you and have seen this enough for it to be considered something worth considering.

2. With all due respect to your vast experience, I would have hard cash on Ian's refereeing and playing experience beating your somewhat narrow world view.

Your wording was rude and unnecessary. It's only made worse by being hyperbole and wrong, as other posters have proved.

God I hate defending Kiwis.

j3ref
22-11-13, 01:11
Bloody hell, if he touches it, Peep grounded, simples, take the easiest route for you as a ref.

I agree with the principle of keeping things as simple as possible for your own sake. But the fact is that any player has the option to pick up the ball in goal as well as the option to ground the ball. If an attacking player fumbles the ball whilst attempting to pick it up in the in-goal area, or succeeds in picking up the ball and then loses possession to a defending player, would it be correct to award the try? I don't think so.

Following the same principles and the laws of the game, I think it is just as important to distinguish between pickups/pickup attempts and proper groundings by defending players. Touching the ball whilst it is on the ground does not in itself constitute a grounding. I would say that a defensive touch down needs to be just as clear and deliberate as a try grounding

At the risk of doing this to death, here is another common enough scenario...

After a five metre scrum a scrum half throws a bad pass towards his ten who is standing in the pocket in-goal waiting to kick. The pass pitches on the ground at the feet of the ten who crouches down to pick it up but fumbles it split seconds before the attacking nine dives on it. I would say try!

TigerCraig
22-11-13, 01:11
From memory there was a PT awarded for knocking the ball dead in Super Rugby this year

TigerCraig
22-11-13, 01:11
Got it - Hurricanes v Blues

MrQeu
22-11-13, 01:11
Here's the video on Karmichael Hunts PT: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xs8jfu_j12-biarritz-racing-metro-92-20-23_sport 50sec mark onwards

thepercy
22-11-13, 02:11
So Ian, you are not even vaguely interested in 22.11? Let alone 22.9 - you seem to be completely ignorant of what players actually do, but then again you seem to be full of yourself.

For my own part, I have not once seen a player scoop or punch the ball over the DBL, nor a PT awarded, but then again, I'm only approaching 100 games reffed and 1000 experienced (ok, more on both, but not that much), and the closest I can recall was a PT for deliberately knocking the ball into touch by a player on the ground about 3 yards out of goal in 1988.

In other words, you are bullshitting again, because not a single defender in the history of rugby has attempted to NOT ground a ball brought in there deliberately. But I will bow to your experience as to idiocy, should you so wish.

here, it happens because players in general have a lack of knowledge of the laws, probably because most do not start playing rugby untill college, more in high schoo now but not many

Browner
05-03-15, 19:03
In keeping with the title of this thread

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BVYF2kBup_w

In the absence of a C&O separation of forearm and the ball then Try looks like the right decision ( notwithstanding the discussion wording betwixt officials)