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Jarrod Burton
24-03-14, 11:03
After watching Pastrana have several massive brain farts on the field on Saturday night (the Yellow Card on the line without a PT for what I thought was ok based on one replay and the TMO decision were two that had me seriously bemused) I have to admit I wasn't suprised to hear that he was stood down this week but didn't get to see the other two. I just got home from training and the Red's fans in the club certainly gave an account which would make Berry's ears burn.

How do people about the publicity and comments from Bray and others regarding these standdowns? I have a love/hate relationship with Coaches & players publicly attacking refs after a match as it reduces the respect for referees and they never seem to be as scathing of all the knock ons, penalties etc commited by their team, but I'm also all for accountability of ref's when they are having a form slump.

http://www.superxv.com/news/super15_rugby_news.asp?id=41941#.UzAFHIVltBo

Taff
24-03-14, 11:03
Reds coach Richard Graham harshly criticized Berry's performance. "The penalty count was 19-4 against us," he said. "I don't think I've ever been involved in a game where the penalty count has been like that. "Certainly we will be speaking to Lyndon Bray to get clarification."
I've never understood why some coaches seem to think that PKs should be shared equally. If your side commits more offences than the other side, it stands to reason that the PK will go against you. What counts surely is the quality of those PKs ie if all 19 were justified, he can't complain can he! I hope that's how Lyndon Bray clarifies it for him privately.

Dixie
24-03-14, 12:03
My basic take is that all coaches and teams should be given the opportunity to say whatever they like in a formal and private evaluation forum (whether written, face-to-face or by phone), and that this should inform the match evaluation and professional development education of the officials concerned. HOWEVER, any comment in public has to avoid blaming referees for turning the course of matches, and claiming that the referee's performance/fitness/capabilities are or were unacceptable for the game in question.

As regards accountability, that comes from the referee's managers. A poor performance should lead to some form of sanction, which should be approrpiate, considerd and measured. There is no need for anyone to come out and say "Referee Fred was useless the other day, so he has been dropped". That can be inferred. As soon as you have referee managers confirming that there are useless referees on the books, the respect agenda is lost.

Browner
24-03-14, 12:03
I've never understood why some coaches seem to think that PKs should be shared equally. If your side commits more offences than the other side, it stands to reason that the PK will go against you.

I had exactly this on Saturday the winning captain said " you were harsh on us, they committed the same (not releasing the tackled player) offences but you only seemed to penalise us (led to a YC for repeating) "

"Their players were much better than yours at convincing me they'd released " I replied ............... Then his openside pipes up, " the ref was correct jake, we last trained that skill during pre-season"

The captains answer said it all... " but we won, didn't we" ............. Hello!!

Browner
24-03-14, 12:03
This is a slippery slope for the pro game, remove a referee for errors so publicly , then what ? Appoint the guy who doesnt make errors that are easy to spot with post match review?!!! Sarc....

What happens when you run out of candidates, over-promote less experienced whistlers?

Ian_Cook
24-03-14, 13:03
Reds coach Richard Graham harshly criticized Berry's performance. "The penalty count was 19-4 against us," he said. "I don't think I've ever been involved in a game where the penalty count has been like that. "Certainly we will be speaking to Lyndon Bray to get clarification."
I've never understood why some coaches seem to think that PKs should be shared equally. If your side commits more offences than the other side, it stands to reason that the PK will go against you. What counts surely is the quality of those PKs ie if all 19 were justified, he can't complain can he! I hope that's how Lyndon Bray clarifies it for him privately.


Keep in mind as you read this that this is Lions v Reds (a South African team v an Australian team). I don't have a dog in this fight.

You might want to consider watching the game before deciding that Graham's comments have no merit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIhmIlS_dmc

I don't have a problem with the 19 PK's awarded against the Reds, I have a problem with the 4. The Lions infringed time after time after time at the breakdown, and SB ignored those infringements, time after time after time. In the second half, he was clearly only watching the Reds.

Even South African coach Nick Mallet, writing in a South African website, thought SB had a shocker.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Super15/Mallett-Berry-was-shocking-20140324

When that happens, you know it had to be bad.

I don't think its realistic to argue against the assertion that the refereeing in Super Rugby this year has been nowhere near up to standard. Frankly, the only SR referees I see as good enough for International Rugby at this stage are both South Africans.... Jaco Peyper and CJ. The rest are a long way off the pace

TNT88
24-03-14, 14:03
Re Reds vs Lions. Berry had a good game until the last 10 minutes where he lost a bit of control. The better team on the night probably didn't win and that final unsmooth period made it look bad. They have reason to feel hard done by and I dare say Berry thinks he could have done some things better on the night.

Most of the lob sided penalty count was justified IMO, the Reds were ignoring Berry and accusing him on bias while the Lions (get this) actually responded to his communication.

As for the others. Poor James Leckie! I hope that isn't the last time we see him. VDM was class on the weekend but he may not have done the Reds vs Shorks game justice the previous week unfortunately. Saying that I think he showed a tad more understanding of how aussie teams play than Berry and I'm surprised he was ranked lower. I have not yet watched Pastrana.

I am against this public statement of refs who have been dropped, it's just pandering to the sort of idiots who are forever in search of justice against referees they perceive to have wronged their team at some point during the season. It's probably out of Bray's control though.

Mat 04
25-03-14, 01:03
Reds coach Richard Graham harshly criticized Berry's performance. "The penalty count was 19-4 against us," he said. "I don't think I've ever been involved in a game where the penalty count has been like that. "Certainly we will be speaking to Lyndon Bray to get clarification."
I've never understood why some coaches seem to think that PKs should be shared equally. If your side commits more offences than the other side, it stands to reason that the PK will go against you. What counts surely is the quality of those PKs ie if all 19 were justified, he can't complain can he! I hope that's how Lyndon Bray clarifies it for him privately.

Hear Hear!!!

Dickie E
26-03-14, 11:03
As for the others. Poor James Leckie!

Rebels v Crusaders. LOTS of scrum issues.

The Fat
26-03-14, 11:03
Rebels v Crusaders. LOTS of scrum issues.

Very hard game to watch from start to finish.
Scrum issues dominated throughout.

Browner
26-03-14, 12:03
Scrum issues dominated throughout.

Early days, learning curve.

Ps... Expect any losing coach (fearing wage packet reduction) to deflect attention away from his players deficiencies and avoid praising the opponents abilities .... By contrasting on finger pointing at officials or laws

The press gobble up such offerings yum yum !

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Dickie E
26-03-14, 20:03
Early days, learning curve.

Ps... Expect any losing coach (fearing wage packet reduction) to deflect attention away from his players deficiencies and avoid praising the opponents abilities .... By contrasting on finger pointing at officials or laws

The press gobble up such offerings yum yum !

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

you'd like to think that Bray is above that

Browner
23-05-15, 12:05
Bump,......

Daily review, weekly selection & consequences ......... Blah blah

OK, not exactly as per thread title but getting dropped week to week certainly seems to add pressure on referees shoulders, in general I'd rather LB kept quiet on this subject, it offers to propagate post match bleatings from vested parties

http://www.sareferees.com/News/sanzar-dissatisfied/2830423/

damo
23-05-15, 13:05
Bump,......

Daily review, weekly selection & consequences ......... Blah blah

OK, not exactly as per thread title but getting dropped week to week certainly seems to add pressure on referees shoulders, in general I'd rather LB kept quiet on this subject, it offers to propagate post match bleatings from vested parties

http://www.sareferees.com/News/sanzar-dissatisfied/2830423/
I've no issue with the way SANZAR handled this last week. There was some very poor decisions last week, and it would have stretched credibility for Bray not to have done anything.

Browner
23-05-15, 14:05
I've no issue with the way SANZAR handled this last week. There was some very poor decisions last week, and it would have stretched credibility for Bray not to have done anything.

I'm not suggesting he do nothing ( make changes if you wish ) , but not to publicly tell everyone that they've been deselected week to week it can hardly enhance referee confidence when ref steps out to the next match.

What happens if same happens the next week??, revert to the previous guy or another replacement amid new selection consequential proclamations. .... This smacks of him dancing to a tune orchestrated by the complainers

Aren't these referees proven to be the best in the business in the most complicated sports code on the planet?????

damo
23-05-15, 19:05
I'm not suggesting he do nothing ( make changes if you wish ) , but not to publicly tell everyone that they've been deselected week to week it can hardly enhance referee confidence when ref steps out to the next match.

What happens if same happens the next week??, revert to the previous guy or another replacement amid new selection consequential proclamations. .... This smacks of him dancing to a tune orchestrated by the complainers

Aren't these referees proven to be the best in the business in the most complicated sports code on the planet?????
I haven't read that he has personally named the poor performers or openly slagged off the referees. An appropriate media statement was released that the officiating was not up to the high standard required and the officials named for the week seemed to imply that the parties responsible had been stood down/demoted. That is just a media interpretation, and one that is not necessarily accurate. Vinny Munroe didn't have a TMO gig this week - but there are more TMO's than gigs; Glen Jackson was AR'ing one of the big games.

Ian_Cook
23-05-15, 23:05
Vinny Munroe didn't have a TMO gig this week - but there are more TMO's than gigs; Glen Jackson was AR'ing one of the big games.

Exactly! There are five NZRU TMOs in use in Super Rugby matches this season, Ben Skeen, Chris Wratt, Glen Newman, Aaron Paterson and Vinny Munro. TMOs in Super Rugby, at least for the regular season matches, are almost always appointed from the country of the home team. There were only two matches in NZ this weekend, so three TMO's were not going to be appointed in any case.

As you can see from Vinny Munro's appointments this season, most of them are in the South Island

Week 01: Not appointed
Week 02: Feb 21 - Highlanders v Crusaders, Dunedin
Week 03: Feb 27 - Highlanders v Reds, Dunedin
Week 04: Not appointed
Week 05: Mar 14 - Highlanders v Waratahs, Dunedin
Week 06: Mar 20 - Highlanders v Hurricanes, Dunedin
Week 07: Not appointed
Week 08: Not appointed
Week 09: Not appointed
Week 10: Apr 17 - Highlanders v Blues, Dunedin
Week 11: Not appointed
Week 12: May 01 - Highlanders v Sharks, Dunedin
Week 13: May 07 - Crusaders v Reds, Christchurch
Week 14: May 15 - Hurricanes v Chiefs, Wellington
Week 15: Not appointed

The two matches in NZ this weekend were in Auckland and Rotorua, and there have been plenty of other weekends where Vinny wasn't appointed, so his not being appointed this weekend really doesn't mean anything.

Dickie E
24-05-15, 09:05
Browner is referring to referee appointments rather than TMO appointments

Ian_Cook
24-05-15, 09:05
Browner is referring to referee appointments rather than TMO appointments

1. The link he posted referred to "Match Officials". Last time I looked, this included Referees, ARs and TMOs

2. I was replying to damo (whom I quoted).

Browner
24-05-15, 09:05
Browner is referring to referee appointments rather than TMO appointments

Correct Dickie, & I only mentioned referees in my post.

'Direct' finger pointing or not, IMO LB's statement adds pressure to whistlers through 'consequences' being publicly stated, and that can only be carried into future fixtures, although I recognise it better protects his position.

Note how following a NRL issue, the top bloke is seemingly in front of a media frenzy giving his statement, its not a development I'd like to see for referee analysis/criticism***, I don't think LB is 'obligated' to make these statements, he could make changes and keep close counsel.

Maybe I'm just king canutesk !