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Dickie E
14-08-14, 01:08
Red are awarded a penalty on Blue 22 and elect to take shot at goal. Kick is successful and as referee awards the score a ball boy runs to the middle of the halfway with a fresh ball ready for the restart.

As Red are retiring to their half and still out of position the Blue team rush to the halfway and take a quick restart with the fresh ball.

TigerCraig
14-08-14, 02:08
No, Law 2.6

"Spare balls may be available during a match, but a team must not gain or attempt to gain an unfair advantage by using them or changing them."

talbazar
14-08-14, 04:08
No, Law 2.6

"Spare balls may be available during a match, but a team must not gain or attempt to gain an unfair advantage by using them or changing them."

Exactly what he just said :)

OB..
14-08-14, 11:08
Red are awarded a penalty on Blue 22 and elect to take shot at goal. Kick is successful and as referee awards the score a ball boy runs to the middle of the halfway with a fresh ball ready for the restart.

As Red are retiring to their half and still out of position the Blue team rush to the halfway and take a quick restart with the fresh ball.I agree, that scenario is obviously illegal.

However the problem does seem to imply that Blue could use the original ball to restart before Red were ready. That proposition has been discussed in the past with no agreement being reached.

Browner
14-08-14, 13:08
However the problem does seem to imply that Blue could use the original ball to restart before Red were ready. That proposition has been discussed in the past with no agreement being reached.

Provided same ball is used AND considering that the clock is still running, why shouldn't the team wishing to get on with the game be prevented from doing so by the procrastinations of the other?..... This ideology seems to dovetail with all other QTI, QTP, QFK thinking, I think i'd let them.

OB..
14-08-14, 14:08
Provided same ball is used AND considering that the clock is still running, why shouldn't the team wishing to get on with the game be prevented from doing so by the procrastinations of the other?..... This ideology seems to dovetail with all other QTI, QTP, QFK thinking, I think i'd let them.
FTFY.

The umpire
14-08-14, 19:08
Saw it happen once, in a Scotland/Wales 6N match (well, didn't actually see it since we were 'treated' to numerous pointless shots of celebrations or replays). Scott (IIRC) Hastings caught the ball, sprinted for the middle and took a quick drop. I think it ended in a penalty aginst Wales for something - tackling player without the ball or not releasing the tackled player - not sure, it was a long time ago :)

chbg
14-08-14, 21:08
Which is the home team? Everyone seems to be assuming Blue; it could easily be Red and the club routine for every match and every score. After all, it is the ball boy's moment of glory, delivering the ball to the centre, so there may be no ill intent at all. In the finals matches at the National Schools Sevens, a fresh ball is placed in the middle after every try by the organiser's ball boys. The referee has to make sure that he/she gets ready in good time!

Browner
15-08-14, 04:08
FTFY.

!!! Damn that predictive text thingumy

Dickie E
15-08-14, 04:08
Provided same ball is used AND considering that the clock is still running, why shouldn't the team wishing to get on with the game be prevented from doing so by the procrastinations of the other?..... This ideology seems to dovetail with all other QTI, QTP, QFK thinking, I think i'd let them.

Agree ... as long as it is same ball.

TigerCraig
15-08-14, 05:08
Which is the home team? Everyone seems to be assuming Blue; it could easily be Red and the club routine for every match and every score. After all, it is the ball boy's moment of glory, delivering the ball to the centre, so there may be no ill intent at all. In the finals matches at the National Schools Sevens, a fresh ball is placed in the middle after every try by the organiser's ball boys. The referee has to make sure that he/she gets ready in good time!

it doesnt really matter. The Law says "a team" can't get an advantage from using a spare ball.

chbg
15-08-14, 21:08
So how long do they have to wait for the other team to dawdle back into position? The referee does not blow his/her whistle to restart play (Law 6.A.7) so I am happy that they restart when they are ready - and I will make sure that I am ready for them too. If it is a standard procedure that a fresh ball is placed at the centre for each re-start (as at NSS finals), and particularly if Red are the home team, then wake up Red and play on. If it is Blue's ground, then on the first occasion it may well be appropriate to pull them back, but only on the first; I will be warning Red to be ready in time on the next occasion. And I will have a jaundiced view of Red's inactivity if I have managed to get in position for Blue's re-start, whilst Red have been celebrating the successful kick at the corner flag because they normally play with a round ball.

As so often, the context DOES matter.

Andrew1974
15-08-14, 21:08
So how long do they have to wait for the other team to dawdle back into position?

If I'm back in the middle, have updated my scorecard and am ready to go then other other team have certainly had time to get back, same ball or not, off we go. If it's not the same ball then they can wait for me, if it's the same ball then I just need to hurry up if they want to take it quick.

Browner
15-08-14, 21:08
. So how long do they have to wait for the other team to dawdle back into position?

They have to wait for 'as long as' the referee considers that the other team havent commenced time wasting.

Once the other team go beyond that period, he should sanction for the offence.

OB..
15-08-14, 22:08
They have to wait for 'as long as' the referee considers that the other team havent commenced time wasting.Why?

Law 13 is a mess. As I have pointed out before, it carefully distinguishes a kick-off from a restart kick and then almost completely forgets about the restart. In particular the question of when a team can restart, given that the referee does not signal it, is not mentioned.

Browner
16-08-14, 00:08
Why?

Law 13 is a mess. As I have pointed out before, it carefully distinguishes a kick-off from a restart kick and then almost completely forgets about the restart. In particular the question of when a team can restart, given that the referee does not signal it, is not mentioned.

Sorry I meant to say " if new ball arrives, and the receiving team start dawdling into position ( knowing their oppo can't koff quickly) in effect running the clock down, then ......as per post #14

damo
16-08-14, 23:08
After a Penalty shot I would disallow it. For a conversion, I would have no issue.

OB..
17-08-14, 00:08
After a Penalty shot I would disallow it. For a conversion, I would have no issue.Reason?

damo
17-08-14, 04:08
Reason?
Fairly obvious isn't it? At a PK, the whole of the kicking team is going to up near the kicker and chasing the kick in case it misses. For a conversion the whole team minus the kicker should be back on their side of the halfway line and ready. If they aren't ready to go by the time the other team run up for the restart then I have limited sympathy.

OB..
17-08-14, 11:08
Fairly obvious isn't it? At a PK, the whole of the kicking team is going to up near the kicker and chasing the kick in case it misses. For a conversion the whole team minus the kicker should be back on their side of the halfway line and ready. If they aren't ready to go by the time the other team run up for the restart then I have limited sympathy.In both cases the defending side start behind their own goal line. If they can get to halfway quickly, why can't their opponents?

Your position on the law is that the restart after a PK is formally different from a restart after a conversion. I am not comfortable with that.

(It is quite common at lower levels for some defending players to stay up near the halfway line during a conversion attempt. If the referee allows that, then I agree he should disallow any attempt to make a quick restart.)

ChrisR
17-08-14, 15:08
"In both cases the defending side start behind their own goal line. If they can get to halfway quickly, why can't their opponents?"

Not necessarily. On a long range PK they may have a couple deep but not all. I think damo's position has merit.

On the other hand if there is no prohibition against a quick restart and no requirement for all receivers to be behind their 10m then ..........

OB..
17-08-14, 19:08
"In both cases the defending side start at least 10m closer to their goal line than the attackers. If they can get to halfway quickly, why can't their opponents?"


Is that better? The kicking team are still better placed to get back into position.

The basic point is that the kicking team either have the right to delay the restart or they don't. IMHO they don't. Egregious time-wasting is a different issue.

Pegleg
04-09-14, 09:09
Interesting. I'm in the "no quick restart with a different ball" camp. The inference is there in the law quoted re "gaining an advantage". What of the time wasting. Well again we have the "time wasting / delaying" laws to cover. So I'm not going to deny a side a short celebration (just because they do it is football is no reason to assume it is a bad thing) as long as they do not cause a silly delay. If I have time to do my score card get back to the middle etc then I'd expect both sides to be ready pretty soon.

Manage it. Don't make a rod for your own back.

OB..
04-09-14, 11:09
Interesting. I'm in the "no quick restart with a different ball" camp. The inference is there in the law quoted re "gaining an advantage". What of the time wasting. Well again we have the "time wasting / delaying" laws to cover. So I'm not going to deny a side a short celebration (just because they do it is football is no reason to assume it is a bad thing) as long as they do not cause a silly delay. If I have time to do my score card get back to the middle etc then I'd expect both sides to be ready pretty soon.

Manage it. Don't make a rod for your own back.If a team needs to take a quick restart because time is running out, why should they wait for the referee?

RobLev
04-09-14, 14:09
If a team needs to take a quick restart because time is running out, why should they wait for the referee?

Presumably for the same reason that a referee will not wait for a team that doesn't want to take a quick restart because time is running out?

If the other team is time-wasting, then there are management tools to prevent that having an effect on the game. If it is not time-wasting, then the team taking the restart should not be permitted to take an unfair advantage; they should have scored earlier and more often.

crossref
04-09-14, 14:09
context is very important. in a professional game EVERY restart is taken with a different ball, so I don't think different ball is an issue. Normally the ball is placed at the centre even before the conversion is taken.
Here the fresh ball is a red herring it's just a quesiotn of whether or not - or how long - a team has to wait for the oppo (and the ref) to be 'ready'

at the grassroots level a fresh ball for a restart is unheard of, and I certainly wouldn't allow a team to use a fresh ball in order to take the oppo by surprise (as per the Law).

OB..
04-09-14, 15:09
If the other team is time-wasting, I think "time wasting" is a red herring. I am not talking about teams deliberately dawdling back, but about a team retiring fairly briskly when the opponents sprint up to the line to take the kick.

RobLev
04-09-14, 21:09
I think "time wasting" is a red herring. I am not talking about teams deliberately dawdling back, but about a team retiring fairly briskly when the opponents sprint up to the line to take the kick.

If the other team are retiring fairly briskly, I don't see why they shouldn't be given time to get back into position before the kick is taken; as I said, if the restarting team feels under time pressure, they should reflect that they should have scored earleir and more often.

Pegleg
04-09-14, 22:09
If a team needs to take a quick restart because time is running out, why should they wait for the referee?

With the original ball fine not with a new one. The question is abut using a different ball and the law covers it nicely.

OB..
05-09-14, 01:09
If the other team are retiring fairly briskly, I don't see why they shouldn't be given time to get back into position before the kick is taken; as I said, if the restarting team feels under time pressure, they should reflect that they should have scored earleir and more often.
I don't see that as a valid argument at all. The question is purely whether or not the team not taking the restart should be entitled to control the timing. I see no reason why they should.

OB..
05-09-14, 01:09
With the original ball fine not with a new one. The question is abut using a different ball and the law covers it nicely.If a different ball is used, there is no need for discussion. The law clearly covers the point.

The problem we are discussing now arises because Law 13 is defective. It is important because referees disagree, though fortunately it is a rare situation.

leaguerefaus
05-09-14, 02:09
RL protocol is that the restart may be taken once all officials are in position. This works fine when you have a team of 3, but otherwise, a little common sense is required! If you have a To3 and the TJs have managed to run back and get into position, I'd say you should allow the restart.

Pegleg
05-09-14, 16:09
If a different ball is used, there is no need for discussion. The law clearly covers the point.

The problem we are discussing now arises because Law 13 is defective. It is important because referees disagree, though fortunately it is a rare situation.

I do apologise for answering the Opening poster's question.

However, tao explain why I say the following in answer to the follow up point:

If I have time to do my score card get back to the middle etc then I'd expect both sides to be ready pretty soon.

If I am not ready the side runs the risk of "scoring" but I am not in a position to see the score. Do I award a try where I have doubt over the grounding?

I'm not going to dawdle back. If I'm there and ready I'd expect both sides to be and it is play on.

I've never had the problem in over 10 years in the middle. I'll not loose too much sleep over it.

crossref
05-09-14, 16:09
I've never had the problem in over 10 years in the middle. I'll not loose too much sleep over it.

I'm surpised at that: I have witnessed this two or three times.

Having let it go once, I wouldn't do that again.

Pegleg
05-09-14, 17:09
Well I've never found the need to stop a side taking a restart kick in such a scenario.

OB..
05-09-14, 21:09
Having let it go once, I wouldn't do that again.What was the problem?

crossref
05-09-14, 22:09
Having let it go once, I wouldn't do that again.What was the problem?

In short, blue took it very quickly, I let them, most of red didn't even compete , blue scored, red were cross, I felt like a prat.

Dickie E
05-09-14, 22:09
In short, blue took it very quickly, I let them, most of red didn't even compete , blue scored, red were cross, I felt like a prat.

so that I can keep up, did Blue use the original ball or a fresh ball?

Rushforth
05-09-14, 22:09
In short, blue took it very quickly, I let them, most of red didn't even compete , blue scored, red were cross, I felt like a prat.

I've not witnessed this ever from a restart. Yes, you were a prat for a minute. Everybody makes mistakes. This particular mistake was not primarily yours, working on the assumption that you had reason to believe that blue WERE using the correct ball.

OB..
06-09-14, 12:09
In short, blue took it very quickly, I let them, most of red didn't even compete , blue scored, red were cross, I felt like a prat.
If Blue used a different ball, you we indeed wrong. If they used the same ball, Red were wrong (IMHO).

crossref
10-09-14, 07:09
It was the same ball - it was a junior match, probably U15 or U16, I can't recall.

Whether I was technically right or wrong, the consensus seemed to be that I was a prat .. not in touch with the spirit of the game :)

OB..
10-09-14, 12:09
It was the same ball - it was a junior match, probably U15 or U16, I can't recall.

Whether I was technically right or wrong, the consensus seemed to be that I was a prat .. not in touch with the spirit of the game :)
So Blue tok it quickly but then agreed you were a prat?! If they did not think it was allowed, why did they do it?

Does consensus at one Youth game really decide the issue? What will you do if it happens in a senior match, you disallow it, and the kicking team thinks you are a prat?

crossref
10-09-14, 12:09
I don't know OB, it's a hard one to pin down and every situation is different, but it was one of those occasions where I didn't feel I had handled it correctly.
In BOTH teams there were individuals who were paying attention and realised the restart had been taken
in BOTH teams there were individuals who weren't paying attention and didn't realise
in BOTH teams there were players who were expecting me to blow my whistle, and other players who weren't

Overall, it felt like a bit of a mess, and a try was scored almost unopposed under the posts. So it's a seven-pointer.

Blue were happy with their seven points, but they didn't all necessarily think it was good refereeing.

Nowadays I think I would be more likely to choose one of these options
1 - the kick off was being taken unreasonably fast, peep : take it again
2 - the oppo were being unreasonably slow to get ready : if it's just laziness, time off and warning, if it's cynical then a FK.

OB..
10-09-14, 12:09
I don't know OB, it's a hard one to pin down and every situation is different, but it was one of those occasions where I didn't feel I had handled it correctly.
In BOTH teams there were individuals who were paying attention and realised the restart had been taken
in BOTH teams there were individuals who weren't paying attention and didn't realise
in BOTH teams there were players who were expecting me to blow my whistle, and other players who weren't

Overall, it felt like a bit of a mess, and a try was scored almost unopposed under the posts. So it's a seven-pointer.

Blue were happy with their seven points, but they didn't all necessarily think it was good refereeing.

Nowadays I think I would be more likely to choose one of these options
1 - the kick off was being taken unreasonably fast, peep : take it again
2 - the oppo were being unreasonably slow to get ready : if it's just laziness, time off and warning, if it's cynical then a FK.Being on teh horns of a dilemma is painful, and it is all down to the major defects in Law 13.

Personally I would allow it, and make sure everybody knew it was a valid kick-off. Howevr I would not mark a referee down for taking a different view - just note the problem in the report.

Browner
10-09-14, 12:09
OB, are you favouring that Law should be fixed in it's permission, ( ie you can, or you can't)

or that law should include contextual judgement on this quick restart scenario ?

IIUC this is the crux of this thread.

crossref
10-09-14, 13:09
of course there is always judgement -- at the one extreme, if red are all lined up and ready except their winger who is chatting to his girlfriend and not paying attention --- then the restart is clearly in order.

OB..
10-09-14, 16:09
OB, are you favouring that Law should be fixed in it's permission, ( ie you can, or you can't)

or that law should include contextual judgement on this quick restart scenario ?

IIUC this is the crux of this thread.My view is that a quick restart ought to be allowed. I see no valid reason why the non-kicking team should be allowed to delay it (provided the same ball is used, of course).

didds
18-10-14, 09:10
IMO...

- wrt supplied/new ball at centre... what is to stop a team still using the "old" ball and ignoring the new one iof they want to start quickly.
- wrt at a PK the attackers are further up the field versus conversion where they are already behind the centre line... if the PK at goal is missed and ball goes dead, this is a 22 d/o. Should the defenders not be permitted to take the 22 d/o quickly, maybe with a long kick as the attackers have left a lot of space back there? If so - what's the difference?

didds

Nigib
07-12-14, 13:12
I've only seen this once in ten years coaching and twelve as referee. An U15 cup quarter final. Gold scored a penalty from just outside the 22, players then jogged not slowly back towards and into their half. Red raced back to the centre with the ball and restarted; most of Gold not ready/aware, Red got the ball from the restart and scored. Problem was that the kick was taken several metres into Gold's half and Red were running and almost at the ten metre line when the ball was kicked. Ref allowed it. And it didn't help matters that he was a first team player for Red's club, and this was his first ever time in the middle.

Simon Thomas
07-12-14, 20:12
I've only seen this once in ten years coaching and twelve as referee. An U15 cup quarter final. Gold scored a penalty from just outside the 22, players then jogged not slowly back towards and into their half. Red raced back to the centre with the ball and restarted; most of Gold not ready/aware, Red got the ball from the restart and scored. Problem was that the kick was taken several metres into Gold's half and Red were running and almost at the ten metre line when the ball was kicked. Ref allowed it. And it didn't help matters that he was a first team player for Red's club, and this was his first ever time in the middle.

Oh dear.

I hope he was made aware of his errors.

Nigib
07-12-14, 22:12
It was not the only 'issue'; there were actually what seemed an endless string of questionable (despite the first sentence in 6a4a) decisions and Red won. Gold had to put up with it as a 'learning' experience (see recent 'Rant' thread), the ref disappeared before Gold coaches could engage in any discussion. But the management of the match was appropriately escalated through the local Society.

crossref
24-06-15, 10:06
OK - it's a different sport, but still an interesting parallel - a surprise restart in football.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/02/gibraltar-u16s-macedonia-goal-celebrations


This was allowed on the grounds that the opponents were all inside their own half (after their score they had run back to their own half to celebrate with their subs).

IE this echoes the logic argued by some on this thread - you don't have to wait for the opponents to be ready to restart, but you can't restart unless they are all behind the 10m line.

Browner
24-06-15, 10:06
An interesting example Crossref, good spot.

Or .... don't celebrate in your own half ! ( nice to see the referee YC the Red player who then pleasenabbed and held onto the ball preventing Whites from restarting)

Browner
24-06-15, 10:06
I've only seen this once in ten years coaching and twelve as referee. An U15 cup quarter final. Gold scored a penalty from just outside the 22, players then jogged not slowly back towards and into their half. Red raced back to the centre with the ball and restarted; most of Gold not ready/aware, Red got the ball from the restart and scored. Problem was that the kick was taken several metres into Gold's half and Red were running and almost at the ten metre line when the ball was kicked. Ref allowed it. And it didn't help matters that he was a first team player for Red's club, and this was his first ever time in the middle.

a veritable receipe for a Cook Up