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FightOrFlight
10-09-14, 17:09
I'm fairly sure I got this right but just double checking. Was out doing a game at the weekend at a level lower than I am used to with considerably less understanding of law etc.

Red 11 made a break and was tackled by Blue 15 in open field. Red 11 goes to ground and pops the ball back toward a support player but he miss-throws and the ball is caught by Blue 6 who is retiring back...I call play on but Red players coaches etc all call offside. Blue attack in broken field and score a try.

Post game Red coach tells me that he is going to call the area coordinator and ask "why refs with so little clue are allowed ref at this level"(what level says I?:tongue:)

Thoughts?

Rushforth
10-09-14, 17:09
I was under the general impression that there was no off-side line in open play, but rather that it only comes into being again when a ruck or maul is formed, at which point it is in both cases the hindmost foot for each respective team.

But clearly red coach has other information. Was he drinking black stuff?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
10-09-14, 17:09
:biggrin:

You're right - he's wrong.

As he will be when he rings the area co-ordinator.

crossref
10-09-14, 17:09
no offside line at the tackle, so play on

EXCEPT THAT Blue 6 (retiring player) can only enter the tackle area from his own side, so if he caught the pop pass really close to the tackle he might have been guilty of that.

Guyseep
10-09-14, 18:09
no offside line at the tackle, so play on

EXCEPT THAT Blue 6 (retiring player) can only enter the tackle area from his own side, so if he caught the pop pass really close to the tackle he might have been guilty of that.

I would argue on a pop pass there is no need to enter through the gate as the ball carrier has essentially played the ball away from the tackle zone. If he instead placed it rather near to him (1m or so) then entry through the gate should apply.

crossref
10-09-14, 18:09
i would agree except in odd circumstances - for instance the pop pass could be vertically upwards, and snatched by oppo, in which case he arguably in the tackle area and hasn't come through gate.

Dixie
10-09-14, 18:09
i would agree except in odd circumstances - for instance the pop pass could be vertically upwards, and snatched by oppo, in which case he arguably in the tackle area and hasn't come through gate. Interesting point -which again shows the wisdom of OB's call for a more clear transition from one phase to another. Does the tackle end (and thus the tackle zone disappear) when the ball carrier passes the ball? It's not immediately obvious why it should - that is not the case when he places it and releases - but I suspect that's what the crowd and most players would expect.

Taff
10-09-14, 18:09
... EXCEPT THAT Blue 6 (retiring player) can only enter the tackle area from his own side, so if he caught the pop pass really close to the tackle he might have been guilty of that.Quite. The Lazy Runner law doesn't apply to tackles - just LOs, Scrums, rucks and mauls.

I haven't got the law reference to hand, but I seem to remember that the gate still applies "near the tackle". And "near" is defined as 1m. Ie


If the ball is still inside the 1m area the gate applies.
If the ball is passed outside the 1m area, the gate doesn't apply.

That's the way I understand it anyway. How far did Red 11 pass the ball?

Ian_Cook
10-09-14, 20:09
I'm fairly sure I got this right but just double checking. Was out doing a game at the weekend at a level lower than I am used to with considerably less understanding of law etc.

Red 11 made a break and was tackled by Blue 15 in open field. Red 11 goes to ground and pops the ball back toward a support player but he miss-throws and the ball is caught by Blue 6 who is retiring back...I call play on but Red players coaches etc all call offside. Blue attack in broken field and score a try.

Post game Red coach tells me that he is going to call the area coordinator and ask "why refs with so little clue are allowed ref at this level"(what level says I?:tongue:)

Thoughts?

Play on, and quick thinking by you. Well done.

I have seen this sort of scenario called offside because its one of the few things in the game that instinctively looks wrong, but isn't.

The coach is a numpty!

ETA: The only condition I would apply is that if the tackle was in the immediate vicinity of a ruck (as in a pick and go) and Blue 6 was offside at that ruck, you might conceivably ping him for loitering (Law 11.9)

11.9 LOITERING
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing
team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The
referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing
team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line

As far as Blue 6 not entering through the gate, I do not think that is relevant. Blue 6 didn't go into the tackle zone to get the ball, Red 11 (the tackled player) threw it to him. He needs to look where he is throwing the ball.

Taff
10-09-14, 22:09
... As far as Blue 6 not entering through the gate, I do not think that is relevant. Blue 6 didn't go into the tackle zone to get the ball, Red 11 (the tackled player) threw it to him..
Sorry Ian, but how do you know Blue 6 didn't go into the tackle zone? The OP doesn't say where he was.

The relevant law is 15.6(d), and the most relevant bit (IMO) is highlited. IMO, we need to know whether Blue 6 was within 1m of the tackle before we can decide if an offence was committed or not. If he was more than 1m then play on. If he was within 1m then it's a PK.

15.6 (d). At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Near: Within one metre.

Daftmedic
10-09-14, 22:09
:biggrin:

You're right - he's wrong.

As he will be when he rings the area co-ordinator.
Guinness? That doesn't make you say that!

Daftmedic
10-09-14, 22:09
Oopppssss didn't see the test of the comments. Yes before you all ask. Tuesday is my Friday

Ian_Cook
10-09-14, 22:09
Sorry Ian, but how do you know Blue 6 didn't go into the tackle zone? The OP doesn't say where he was.

The relevant law is 15.6(d), and the most relevant bit (IMO) is highlited. IMO, we need to know whether Blue 6 was within 1m of the tackle before we can decide if an offence was committed or not.

15.6 (d). At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Near: Within one metre.

Agree, we don't know exactly where Blue 6 is in relation to the tackle, but I'm not going to PK him if Red 11 is stupid enough to throw it straight to him. Why should Red 11 benefit from his own incompetence?

Blue 6 is retiring, onside, when a tackle happens right in front of him and the ball pops into his hands. Sorry, but that is play-on in my book. It would be different if Red 11 had rolled the ball back along the ground, and Blue 6 had bent down to pick it up when near the tackle, because that is a conscious intent to play the ball. Equity demands that there ought to be difference between going after the ball at a tackle, and having the ball come to you.


YMMV

Dickie E
10-09-14, 23:09
I agree with Taff.

menace
11-09-14, 00:09
I agree with Taff.

3007

(Seeing if it works on Dickie?)

damo
11-09-14, 06:09
It might have been illegal as the others say if the receiver was within a metre of the tackle. I would say that it is very unlikely that you were wrong. Even if you were wrong, the coach is certainly wrong to say he was offside, and it would only be by coincidence if he happened to have been correct. Next time this happens, just calmly state that until a ruck/maul has been formed it is general play and there's no offside line, so how could he be offside.

These incidents look funny and they look wrong, but provided a ruck has not been formed, it is almost always play on.

Balones
11-09-14, 07:09
I realise that a lot of action around the tackle can look wrong.
As everyone knows there are no offside lines at a tackle.
The 'through the gate' requirement only applies to contesting the ball when the ball is still in the tackle. Once a supporting player has lifted the ball out of the tackle, (off the floor) regardless of the 1M as people have said we now have a player in possession and is available to be tackled themselves. (I know it looks very wrong.)
In the OP the ball has left the tackle by the fact it was passed (badly) so anyone can try to access it.
There is nothing in law that says definitely that one metre is the tackle area. It is just a rule of thumb to guide refs but a better guide is about an arm's length.

Ian_Cook
11-09-14, 07:09
I realise that a lot of action around the tackle can look wrong.
As everyone knows there are no offside lines at a tackle.
The 'through the gate' requirement only applies to contesting the ball when the ball is still in the tackle. Once a supporting player has lifted the ball out of the tackle, (off the floor) regardless of the 1M as people have said we now have a player in possession and is available to be tackled themselves. (I know it looks very wrong.)
In the OP the ball has left the tackle by the fact it was passed (badly) so anyone can try to access it.
There is nothing in law that says definitely that one metre is the tackle area. It is just a rule of thumb to guide refs but a better guide is about an arm's length.

!00% agree with this

When a ruck offside line disappears, any players who were offside remain out of the game until made onside. However this is not the case with the tackle gate. When it disappears, it does not matter where you were, you are in the game again

The OP says Blue 6 was "retiring" so I have to assume he was in motion. The moment the ball left Red 11's hands, the tackle was over, the gate disappeared. Blue 6 was entitled to catch the ball. The only way that Blue 6 could have been penalised is if he actually entered the tackle zone (presumably from Red's side of the tackle) and the referee already called and signalled advantage for side entry before Red 11 passed thet ball. The referree would need to have been "gunslinger quick" to have done that.

Dickie E
11-09-14, 07:09
a better guide is about an arm's length.

why? Arm lengths vary

Dickie E
11-09-14, 07:09
The moment the ball left Red 11's hands, the tackle was over, the gate disappeared.

Disagree. Otherwise players could enter from anywhere once the tackled player laid the ball back even by a cm. The ball needs to move outside the 1 metre radius for the tackle to end.

RobLev
11-09-14, 08:09
I'm with Ian, Balones etc.

Those arguing against: remember that Law 15.6(d) applies to all players. Assume that Red's pop pass goes sideways rather than back, and it's taken by a Red player. Are you going to penalise Red?

The better view is surely that once the pass has been popped the tackle is over and we're in general play. If there's an analogy with the tackled player laying the ball back, ask yourself whether you'd penalise a pick and drive at the tackle from a laid-back ball; and then consider 15.6(e).

Dickie E
11-09-14, 10:09
ask yourself whether you'd penalise a pick and drive at the tackle from a laid-back ball

I would if the player didn't come through the gate

FlipFlop
11-09-14, 10:09
Two things:
1) This shows why you need to know your laws. So you can confidently explain to the coach WHY it wasn't offside. He might learn something.
2) I take the view that a pass means tackle is over. The tackled player has chosen to exercise an option that moves the ball out fo the tackle zone. The defensive player isn't clearly and obviously entering the tackle area to play the ball, as he could not know the ball was going to be passed. So I think the gate issue just muddies the water, with a pass.

So play on and good call. Only bad thing - was your inability to explain WHY to the coach. And back it up with your law book you have in your bag......

OB..
11-09-14, 11:09
Disagree. Otherwise players could enter from anywhere once the tackled player laid the ball back even by a cm. The ball needs to move outside the 1 metre radius for the tackle to end.
The law does not bother to define when a tackle ends, hence our problem.

Under your rule, a tackled player could lay the ball back almost a metre, and leave it in clear space on the gound away from the bodies with defenders being required to approach it through the pile.

Actually, if you include the 1m "near" zone in the tackled zone, it becomes legal to run up the side of the pile of bodies, but nobody allows that.

Once the ball leaves the (strictly limited) tackle zone IMHO the tackle is over.

As a rule of thumb I agree that deliberately passing the ball ends a tackle.

Taff
11-09-14, 12:09
I would if the player didn't come through the gate
Exactly.

If the tackled player placed the ball just 0.5 m behind him, would you allow opponents to play the ball from any direction? No.

Why differentiate between a "pass" and a "place"?

RobLev
11-09-14, 13:09
ask yourself whether you'd penalise a pick and drive at the tackle from a laid-back ballI would if the player didn't come through the gate

And 15.6(e)?

Any player who gains possession of the ball at the tackle must play the ball immediately by moving away or passing or kicking the ball.

Picking and driving is not "moving away".

RobLev
11-09-14, 13:09
Exactly.

If the tackled player placed the ball just 0.5 m behind him, would you allow opponents to play the ball from any direction? No.

Why differentiate between a "pass" and a "place"?

Because a "pass" takes the ball away from the tackle; whereas a "place" cannot. It is impossible for a player to "place" the ball outside the tackle zone - at least until someone manufactures a player with metre-plus arms; whereas virtually any pass will take the ball outside that zone.

FightOrFlight
11-09-14, 13:09
I realise that I left some meat off the bones in the original post.

Blue 6 was in such a position that he was wide of the tackle area. As if he was angling to come around the corner and enter legally. The miss throw went off at a near 45 degree angle from straight back. He just took the ball did a loop and passed it off again.

When the coach approached me I explained to him that there was no offside until the ruck or maul forms but I'm not sure he was listening...his high octane assertions were more important to him than that.
It should be noted that this was a fairly low level of adult games...the kind where tackled players fire the ball out of tackles and some guy down the pub stands around and pretends to be coach....

Ian_Cook
11-09-14, 13:09
Disagree. Otherwise players could enter from anywhere once the tackled player laid the ball back even by a cm. The ball needs to move outside the 1 metre radius for the tackle to end.

Law 15.6 applies to ALL "other" players from BOTH sides

So, Red 11 passes the ball to Red 12 who is not in the gate or directly behind the ball or the tackled player. DickieE pings Red 12 for playing the ball at the tackle without entering through the gate?

RobLev
11-09-14, 13:09
Law 15.6 applies to ALL "other" players from BOTH sides

So, Red 11 passes the ball to Red 12 who is not in the gate or directly behind the ball or the tackled player. DickieE pings Red 12 for playing the ball at the tackle without entering through the gate?

Thanks, Ian - I'd noticed that Dickie E hadn't answered that point.

And, indeed, with FightorFlight's clarification that's precisely the choice that he'd be faced with.

Pegleg
11-09-14, 14:09
I'm pretty much with Ian here.

There is no intentional playing of the ball that justifies a "full arm" If the Blue 6 is clearly retiring.

However, if Blue 6 is not retiring and making towards the tackle in a "lazy runner" style then ping him fair enough.

As there are so many variables at play here, I am going to say that the OP gave what he saw and that's good by me.

OB..
11-09-14, 15:09
Why differentiate between a "pass" and a "place"?Because they are different. If you place the ball you retain control. If you pass you don't.

crossref
11-09-14, 15:09
As there are so many variables at play here, I am going to say that the OP gave what he saw and that's good by me.

I think we all agree that in the OP the ref was right.
we are just discussing a hypothetical, more finely balanced, case where catch of the pop pass is very close to the tackle. How close is too close?

Pegleg
11-09-14, 15:09
I think we all agree that in the OP the ref was right.
we are just discussing a hypothetical, more finely balanced, case where catch of the pop pass is very close to the tackle. How close is too close?


Did you not see the rest of my post?

crossref
11-09-14, 15:09
i don't really agree with the rest of your post as there is no need for blue 6 to be retiring at all, so whether he is retiring or not doesn't really matter.

what does matter is whether - in order to catch the pop pass he could see was coming - he actually entered the tackle zone from wrong side.

Browner
11-09-14, 16:09
So, if the (immediate) pop pass is made virtually vertically ... Both players are entitled to go for the ball, irrespective whether its 1.5, 1.0, 0.05m distant from centre location of the tackle that preceded the 'pop' .....

Anyone disagree ?

crossref
11-09-14, 17:09
So, if the (immediate) pop pass is made virtually vertically ... Both players are entitled to go for the ball, irrespective whether its 1.5, 1.0, 0.05m distant from centre location of the tackle that preceded the 'pop' .....

Anyone disagree ?

i disagree.

I think that if a tackled player throws the ball vertically upwards then it can only be caught by a player coming in through his gate.

If on the other hand he throws it clear of the tackle area it can be caught by anyone

Taff
11-09-14, 18:09
Because they are different. If you place the ball you retain control. If you pass you don't.
As a tackled player, I can pass, push, place or release the ball. Surely I can't "retain control" if I place the ball say 0.5m and take my mits off it.


I realise that I left some meat off the bones in the original post. Blue 6 was in such a position that he was wide of the tackle area.
So he was outside the tackle zone. Play on then.


... It should be noted that this was a fairly low level of adult games....Irrelevant surely. I would say the same whether it was Old Fartonians 3rd XV or the World Cup Final.


... So, Red 11 passes the ball to Red 12 who is not in the gate or directly behind the ball or the tackled player. DickieE pings Red 12 for playing the ball at the tackle without entering through the gate?
So where is Red 12? If he's in the tackle zone, he has to get there through his own gate. If he's not in the tackle law, the gate doesn't apply to him ... and if he's outside the tackle zone and gets passed the ball, then we're back in open play.


i disagree. I think that if a tackled player throws the ball vertically upwards then it can only be caught by a player coming in through his gate. If on the other hand he throws it clear of the tackle area it can be caught by anyone
Same for me. If its a vertical throw - its' still in the tackle zone. Don't think I've ever seen a vertical throw mind.

tim White
11-09-14, 19:09
Don't think I've ever seen a vertical throw mind.

Come down to Old Fartonians on any Saturday

OB..
11-09-14, 19:09
As a tackled player, I can pass, push, place or release the ball. Surely I can't "retain control" if I place the ball say 0.5m and take my mits off it. Of course not, but you have usually placed it outside the tackle. If you place it within the tackle zone that is obviously different from a pass anyway.

Taff
11-09-14, 20:09
Of course not, but you have usually placed it outside the tackle. If you place it within the tackle zone that is obviously different from a pass anyway.But this is my point; if I was to place it just 50cm behind me, I reckon that's still in the tackle zone - ie gate still applies.

Pegleg
11-09-14, 20:09
i don't really agree with the rest of your post as there is no need for blue 6 to be retiring at all, so whether he is retiring or not doesn't really matter.

what does matter is whether - in order to catch the pop pass he could see was coming - he actually entered the tackle zone from wrong side.

Perhaps my wording could be more accurate if he runs (to where he is going) via the "tackle zone" then I have an issue If he is not and he collects the ball out side it I have no issue at all - He's legal. If he's in the tackle zone by default and not design. I think it would be hard to ping him.

Ian_Cook
11-09-14, 21:09
But this is my point; if I was to place it just 50cm behind me, I reckon that's still in the tackle zone - ie gate still applies.

But placing is not the same as passing, and I think some here are still trying to apply an "offside mentality" to the gate

When an offside line disappears, players who were offside at that moment will infringe if they take part in the game before being made onside again. The offside line persists for those players, but not for any players who were already onside.

When the gate disappears, ALL player are legal to take part in the game. The gate does not persist for ANY player beyond the moment at which it disappears.

The moment the ball at a tackle is no longer on the ground due to a player in the gate picking it up, the gate disappears. Same applies if the tackled player passes the ball. The gate exists only from the time the ball carrier is tackled to the moment the ball is off the ground. The very instant that the ball leaves the hands of the tackled player when he PASSES the ball, ANY player can play it regardless of where they are on the field (unless of course they are a team-mate ahead of the passer).

crossref
11-09-14, 21:09
Law reference for your last paragraph?

OB..
11-09-14, 21:09
But this is my point; if I was to place it just 50cm behind me, I reckon that's still in the tackle zone - ie gate still applies.You suggested there was no difference between passing and placing. I insist that there is. If you place the ball, you have a hand on it, controlling it. What happens next is not part of placing, and you may place it inside or outside the tackle zone (which does not include the 1 metre "near" area). If you keep your hand on the ball, that is allowed for steadying, but not if you use it to prevent an opponent from lifting it, and not if you pull the ball back into the tackle zone (you are then playing the ball on the ground).

However when you pass the ball you release it completely and have no further contact. It is very easy to distinguish the two.

Ian_Cook
11-09-14, 21:09
Law reference for your last paragraph?

No law reference required (show me where the word "tackle gate" appears anywhere in the Lawbook anyway)

Its just application and plain commonsense. Explain to me how it can be any other way and still maintain consistency.

Would you PK a retiring player who tackled an opponent who has picked up the ball in a tackle? If you would, then you still don't understand the difference between the gate ad an offside line.

Browner
11-09-14, 21:09
i disagree.

I think that if a tackled player throws the ball vertically upwards then it can only be caught by a player coming in through his gate.

If on the other hand he throws it clear of the tackle area it can be caught by anyone

I'm more supporting of the idea that the tackle zone ends when the ball is passed, irrespective of the direction.

Passed being different to: being placed or released onto the ground.

crossref
11-09-14, 21:09
Your use of the word 'retiring player' seems to suggest you don't know the difference :-)
The phrase retiring player as used in the Laws refers to am offside player getting himself back onside

Pegleg
11-09-14, 22:09
I think I have already suggested my wording was in error. You seem not to understand that (no need for a smiley!)

Ian_Cook
11-09-14, 22:09
Your use of the word 'retiring player' seems to suggest you don't know the difference :-)
The phrase retiring player as used in the Laws refers to am offside player getting himself back onside


For me, "a retiring player" is, always has been and always will be, a player who is heading back towards his own goal line. A retiring player, may or may not be offside, or may or may not be simply getting himself into a support position or a defensive position. Just because he is retiring toward his own goal-line does not mean he is or was offside.

The OP used the term as I do. He called Blue 6 a retiring player... ("the ball is caught by Blue 6 who is retiring back")

Now in the OP's scenario, if Blue 6 had been offside then that is what you would PK him for!!


ETA:

Here is a Law reference that uses the world retire, and which has nothing to do with offside...

9.B.3 THE OPPOSING TEAM
(a) All players of the opposing team must retire to their goal line and must not overstep that line
until the kicker begins the approach to kick or starts to kick. When the kicker does this, they
may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players
in these actions.

In this case, retire means "go back". So, retire is not always used to denote an offside player going back

ETAA: But wait, there's more...

21.4 (g) Kick taken in the in-goal. If a player retires into in-goal to take a penalty or free kick
awarded in the field of play and a defending player by foul play prevents an opponent from
scoring a try a penalty try is awarded

21.4 (h) Out of play in the in-goal. If a player retires into in-goal to take a penalty or free kick
awarded in the field of play and following the kick the ball goes into touch-in-goal, or on or
over the dead ball line, or a defending player makes the ball dead before it has crossed the
goal line, a 5-metre scrum is awarded. The attacking team throws in the ball.

21.8 (g) Free kick taken in the in-goal. If a free kick has been awarded and the player retires into
in-goal to take it and the opponents charge and prevent the kick from being taken, a 5-
metre scrum is ordered. The attacking team throws in the ball. If a free kick is taken in the
in-goal, an opponent who legitimately plays it there can score a try.

Taff
11-09-14, 22:09
The law does not bother to define when a tackle ends, hence our problem.
This isn't meant to appear flippant, but I just assumed it ended when another phase of play took over.


... Under your rule, a tackled player could lay the ball back almost a metre, and leave it in clear space on the ground away from the bodies with defenders being required to approach it through the pile. Actually, if you include the 1m "near" zone in the tackled zone, it becomes legal to run up the side of the pile of bodies, but nobody allows that.
Not quite, because opponents would also have to approach through their own gate. Ie the 1m could extend the length of the tackle zone, but not the width.


3007

(Seeing if it works on Dickie?)
Perhaps I'm thick, but you'll have to explain that one to me.


You suggested there was no difference between passing and placing. I insist that there is. If you place the ball, you have a hand on it, controlling it. What happens next is not part of placing, and you may place it inside or outside the tackle zone (which does not include the 1 metre "near" area).
So if a tackled player placed the ball back say 20 cm behind him and took his mits off it, would you say we were still dealing with a tackle or open play?

If its a tackle, I don't understand why we would treat it any different if the tackled player ballsed up a pass and it landed just 20 cm behind him.

Ian_Cook
11-09-14, 22:09
Perhaps I'm thick, but you'll have to explain that one to me.


Its a visual pun!

Ever heard of or watched a TV comedy game show called "Who's Line is it Anyway?" ?

Dickie E
11-09-14, 23:09
Thanks, Ian - I'd noticed that Dickie E hadn't answered that point.



Sorry, by referring to me in 3rd person I didn't realise it was a question addressed to me.

Provided the Red 11 pass wasn't forward and noting that 1 metre isn't a big distance I would be happy that Red 12 came through the gate.

However, if Red 11 pops the ball vertically and a Blue player is in such a position to catch it without having come through his gate then I can see only 2 possibilities:

1. the Blue player was tackle assist and is hovering over Red 11, or
2. the Blue player is retiring by intentionally traversing the 1 metre tackle zone.

In either case, if his presence has an impact on play then he is liable to penalty.

Dickie E
11-09-14, 23:09
I'm more supporting of the idea that the tackle zone ends when the ball is passed, irrespective of the direction.

Passed being different to: being placed or released onto the ground.

I see the "tackle zone" as being a vertical cylinder with a 1 metre radius. If the ball is passed, placed, pushed, kicked, released [add in verb of your choice] outside this cylinder then the tackle is over. If it is not, then the tackle is in progress and entering players need to come through the gate in order to compete.




If you place the ball, you have a hand on it, controlling it.

I do not accept OB..'s contention that "placed" is somehow a special case because the tackled player must have his hand on the ball. No controlling hand on ball in this picture:

3011

menace
12-09-14, 03:09
Its a visual pun!

Ever heard of or watched a TV comedy game show called "Who's Line is it Anyway?" ?

Yep...sorry Taff. It was a crossover from here.... http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18044-I-reckon-we-need-two-more-emoticons

I was in one of those weird moods when posting that, where my humour was not aligned with any planet in the universe! (Long working week made me do it!)

Ian_Cook
12-09-14, 04:09
I see the "tackle zone" as being a vertical cylinder with a 1 metre radius. If the ball is passed, placed, pushed, kicked, released [add in verb of your choice] outside this cylinder then the tackle is over. If it is not, then the tackle is in progress and entering players need to come through the gate in order to compete.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/RugbyRefs/TackleGate.jpg

.. from the iRB's "Rugby Ready" book.

I see the "tackle zone" as if it were lines painted on the ground. They appear when a tackle is made, and disappear when the tackle ends.

If the tackled player passes or throws the ball in any direction, any opponent with his feet outsize the dotted line is free to catch it.

Dickie E
12-09-14, 05:09
If the tackled player passes or throws the ball in any direction, any opponent with his feet outsize the dotted line is free to catch it.

Have to agree cos its kinda what I said.

So do you agree then that any player with feet inside dotted line can only catch the ball if he has come through the gate?

Ian_Cook
12-09-14, 05:09
Have to agree cos its kinda what I said.

So do you agree then that any player with feet inside dotted line can only catch the ball if he has come through the gate?

That would depend on whether or not he started outside the tackle zone.

I don't see the tackle zone as having infinite height. When the ball is popped, the gate disappears the moment the ball leaves the hands of the tackled player. Its the same as if a team-mate of the tackled player had picked it up. Unlike an offside line, the influence of the gate does not persist beyond its disappearance.

Dickie E
12-09-14, 06:09
That would depend on whether or not he started outside the tackle zone.

why? (msf)

Ian_Cook
12-09-14, 06:09
why? (msf)

You snipped the part of my post that explains why

Dickie E
12-09-14, 06:09
I don't see the tackle zone as having infinite height. When the ball is popped, the gate disappears the moment the ball leaves the hands of the tackled player. Its the same as if a team-mate of the tackled player had picked it up. Unlike an offside line, the influence of the gate does not persist beyond its disappearance.

Interesting. So riddle me this:

1. tackle assist has released ball carrier, is over the ball and facing his own goal line.
2. ball carrier attempts to pop pass to team mate
3. tackle assist sticks hand out and knocks ball backwards.

Play on?

Ian_Cook
12-09-14, 07:09
Interesting. So riddle me this:

1. tackle assist has released ball carrier, is over the ball and facing his own goal line.
2. ball carrier attempts to pop pass to team mate
3. tackle assist sticks hand out and knocks ball backwards.

Play on?

Does the tackled player let go of the pass? If so, play on (the tackle gate ended when the tackled player let go of the pass)

Does the tackled player attempt to pass but before he can do so, the TA knocks the ball out of his hands? If so, PK against TA for playing the ball from the wrong side (tackle gate still exists because tackled player still has possession of the ball).

Of course, you could always pre-empt the whole thing by trigger-fingering the TA for taking up the space! :biggrin:

IMO. YMMV

The thing is, I see where you are coming from, but both your view and my view are equally valid because there is no actual Law that covers this situation. And there wont be until the Lawmakers have the good sense to ...

1. Recognize in Law that the tackle is a phase of play and define when it ends (we already know when it starts)
2. Define the gate and who it applies to (and I mean use the term "tackle gate", complete with a diagram, in the LotG)
3. Define a Tackle Assist, and specify what he can and cannot do.
4. Include "taking the space" as a Law and specify a sanction

RobLev
12-09-14, 07:09
Sorry, by referring to me in 3rd person I didn't realise it was a question addressed to me.

I'd raised both 15.6(d) and (e) in my #21; your #22 answered the 15.6(e) point but ignored 15.6(d).


Provided the Red 11 pass wasn't forward and noting that 1 metre isn't a big distance I would be happy that Red 12 came through the gate.

However, if Red 11 pops the ball vertically and a Blue player is in such a position to catch it without having come through his gate then I can see only 2 possibilities:

1. the Blue player was tackle assist and is hovering over Red 11, or
2. the Blue player is retiring by intentionally traversing the 1 metre tackle zone.

In either case, if his presence has an impact on play then he is liable to penalty.

My question was in relation to a sideways pop. but...

Noting that Red 11 was presumably running with the ball and a rugby player can easily be covering 8m in a second flat-out, you've missed:

3. the Blue player was chasing down Red 11 from behind, his team-mate cuts Red 11 down and Red 11 pops the ball up into his hands before he has the chance to take any avoiding action - by far the most likely scenario, IMHO, for a vertical pop.

Blackberry
12-09-14, 09:09
Here's what I do
The gate only applies to players who want to engage in the tackle as it develops.
A retiring player cannot be offside
A pass (even a bad one) ends the tackle.

I have had bad passes which land back in the tackle, I simply had to manage them. On one occasion I gave a knock on, on another I invoked masterly inactivity for a second and the situation sorted itself out safely.

Balones
12-09-14, 09:09
It is very clear and simple.
The gate applies when the ball is on the floor (On a body if the ball carrier has been turned onto his back etc.) within the tackle area or near it.
Once the ball leaves the floor we either have a player in possession or we have had a pass. In which case play on. Until the IRB alter the laws or say anything more specific that is how the scenario should be interpreted even if it looks wrong.
Anything else confuses the issue - there is enough ambiguity in determining the size of the tackle area by the ref as it stands.

Dickie E
12-09-14, 10:09
It is very clear and simple.


this is when the alarm bells start to ring

Ian_Cook
12-09-14, 10:09
I invoked masterly inactivity for a second and the situation sorted itself out safely.


"Masterly inactivity" is a very good tool to have in your toolbox. Every referee should own one!

crossref
12-09-14, 10:09
I have had bad passes which land back in the tackle, I simply had to manage them. On one occasion I gave a knock on, on another I invoked masterly inactivity for a second and the situation sorted itself out safely.

I like that :)

The Fat
12-09-14, 10:09
I invoked masterly inactivity for a second and the situation sorted itself out safely.

That would make an excellent forum signature:biggrin:

Dickie E
12-09-14, 10:09
Once the ball leaves the floor we either have a player in possession or we have had a pass. In which case play on.

I keep trying to find that bit in the book. All I can find is this:

(c)
Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

menace
12-09-14, 10:09
As RobLev says....15.6d must mean something?
Ie
(d)
At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those playersí goal line.

If it's not to mean that a pop pass that has not moved a metre away then it can't be played at by the opposition unless they've come through the gate, then what does it mean?

Ps: mind you the definition of 'near' when it happens at speed is subjective (even 1 m isn't meant to be precisely applied?). I enterpret it as a 'visibly' far enough distance away from the tackle zone.

Pegleg
12-09-14, 11:09
It is very clear and simple.
The gate applies when the ball is on the floor (On a body if the ball carrier has been turned onto his back etc.) within the tackle area or near it.
Once the ball leaves the floor we either have a player in possession or we have had a pass. In which case play on. Until the IRB alter the laws or say anything more specific that is how the scenario should be interpreted even if it looks wrong.
Anything else confuses the issue - there is enough ambiguity in determining the size of the tackle area by the ref as it stands.


I gt very concerned when I read stuff like this. Clearly it is far from clear and simple. This thread is ample proof of that.

Can you support that in Law or with any directive / clarification? Why "should" we accept your interpretation?

OB..
12-09-14, 11:09
This isn't meant to appear flippant, but I just assumed it ended when another phase of play took over. That means you have to define all the other phases of play (which I have long advocated). Formal definition of open play?



Not quite, because opponents would also have to approach through their own gate. Ie the 1m could extend the length of the tackle zone, but not the width. I don't see how "near" can be taken to apply to only one direction.



So if a tackled player placed the ball back say 20 cm behind him and took his mits off it, would you say we were still dealing with a tackle or open play?If he had placed it beyind the tackle zone, yes.


If its a tackle, I don't understand why we would treat it any different if the tackled player ballsed up a pass and it landed just 20 cm behind him.Placing means having a hand on the ball. Subsequently the player may release (not an integral part of placing, since players are allowed to keep a hand on the ball to steady it).

The outcome may or may not be the same for place-and-release as for tackle, but the two actions are different and should not be conflated.

I think we have conclusively proved that the law is inadeqaute. Not unusual, and the poor ref is left to pick up the pieces. Doubtless he will get different advice in different areas.

crossref
12-09-14, 12:09
As RobLev says....15.6d must mean something?
Ie
(d)
At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

If it's not to mean that a pop pass that has not moved a metre away then it can't be played at by the opposition unless they've come through the gate, then what does it mean?
.

I think menace and roblev nail it.

Browner
12-09-14, 13:09
Slight tangent ....... 1m radius from where exactly?

The place of shoulder impact/ hand grasp?, or the ball? ( these could be c.1.75m apart)

or....other?

Taff
12-09-14, 13:09
Slight tangent ....... 1m radius from where exactly? The place of shoulder impact/ hand grasp?, or the ball? ( these could be c.1.75m apart) or....other?
Funnily enough I was thinking about that last night. My initial feeling was that the 1m be taken from the ball, but perhaps it would be fairer to take it from the centre of the tackle ie the bodies on the ground.

ChrisR
12-09-14, 15:09
There are two things missing from Law 15: Workable definition of the 'tackle area' and definition of when the tackle ends.

I suggest dumping the 1m rule and adopting a definition of 'tackle area' as the area bounded by the doted lines taken from the IRB Rugby Ready diagram. (Thank you Ian)

3013

The tackle event would end when the ball leaves the tackle area as defined above or another phase starts such as a ruck. Placing or passing the ball within the tackle area does not end the tackle event. Until the tackle ends all players are governed by the existing laws of 15.

Now, back to the OP and the defender chasing after the BC who gets tackled and pops up the ball, within the tackle area, right into the chasers path who instinctively catches it. A PK for entering the tackle area from the wrong side seems very harsh. However if the ball had been placed on the deck and that defender had then played it we wouldn't have any empathy.

Therefor I'd suggest that we need some flexibility in the sanction (scrum, as in accidental off-side) but not play on.

If the pass, or placement of the ball, leaves the tackle area then there is no issue.

These are my thoughts after resisting the temptation to jump in much earlier.

For those asking for law references I suggest reading the first lines of this post again.

Ian_Cook
12-09-14, 19:09
Very good Marauder, and while we're at it lets clean up another little anomaly in the Law.

When there is a tackle, and a player enters the zone from the side and does not attempt to play the ball, and instead, cleans out an opponent, do we PK him?

Yes?

Is that what the Law says?

No?

This is the bit of Law that has become the Tackle Gate & Zone

LAW 15.6 (d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the
ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal
line.

The Law assumes that everyone who enters the tackle zone does so for the purpose of playing the ball. In the modern game, this is far from reality. In the strict wording of the Law, side entry only applies if the player actually plays the ball. Of course, if we allowed this, the tackle zone would become even more of a chaotic mess.

I think a proper definition of the Tackle Zone, with clear, unequivocal descriptions of who it applies to and how and when it is applies would be a great step forward in cleaning up the breakdown.

Rushforth
12-09-14, 21:09
I think a proper definition of the Tackle Zone, with clear, unequivocal descriptions of who it applies to and how and when it is applies would be a great step forward in cleaning up the breakdown.

So you would also agree that a clear, uneqivocal description in Law of the forward pass would help, when 95% of spectators are flabbergasted by the concept of momentum/relativity, and Dutch referees who do understand the concept want it unequivocal? ;)

chbg
12-09-14, 21:09
Very good Marauder, and while we're at it lets clean up another little anomaly in the Law.

When there is a tackle, and a player enters the zone from the side and does not attempt to play the ball, and instead, cleans out an opponent, do we PK him?

Yes?

Is that what the Law says?


10.4(f)

Balones
12-09-14, 22:09
Law 15.6(d) just says what I have said. When the ball is in the tackle or near it you have to come through the gate. It says nothing about what you do when it leaves the tackle area because it doesn't have to. Normal laws apply. I.e. the ball has been passed (left the tackle area by not being on the floor) or been picked up. (Player in possession.) The laws says that the tackled player can do three things when tackled. Release the ball - ball still in tackle. Place the ball (on floor) - ball still in tackle unless has exceptionally long arms! Pass the ball - tackle over. If it goes to a supporting player - well done, play on. If it goes to a defending player - tough, play on.

ChrisR
12-09-14, 22:09
10.4(f) doesn't apply. As soon as a player engages an opponent in the tackle area to clear him off the ball a ruck has formed.

Ian's point is that under Tackle Law 15 the prohibition against side entry only refers to a player going for the ball. It is covered by 16.5(c).

OB..
13-09-14, 01:09
So you would also agree that a clear, uneqivocal description in Law of the forward pass would help, when 95% of spectators are flabbergasted by the concept of momentum/relativity, and Dutch referees who do understand the concept want it unequivocal? ;)THe RFU made an unequivocal statement in1948. It really is about time the IRB followed suit. By posting a video explaining it ... oh, wait a minute.

Ian_Cook
13-09-14, 01:09
10.4(f)


I'll see your 10.4 (f) and raise you a 15.7 (d)

Pegleg
13-09-14, 07:09
Normal laws apply. I.e. the ball has been passed (left the tackle area by not being on the floor) or ...

You see this is the problem. This is not, at least I can't find it, in the law book. So what is your law justification for assuming it?

Taff
13-09-14, 08:09
You see this is the problem. This is not, at least I can't find it, in the law book. So what is your law justification for assuming it?
Exactly. Whereas "near" IS defined .... as 1m.

The only question really is 1m from where?

Balones
13-09-14, 11:09
You see this is the problem. This is not, at least I can't find it, in the law book. So what is your law justification for assuming it?

I will not deny that I would like to see the IRB clarify when exactly the tackle is over. It has been done (to a varying degree of success I admit) for the lineout, ruck and maul. What we have is a defined situation as to what is a tackle and tackle situation is and what players have to do when there is a tackle. Outside of that we have to make some assumptions; one being that outside of definition and actions permitted by players we have an open play situation. Without taking the position that I have outlined we would have an untenable situation for the referee. What would you (or any ref) do in the following scenario?

A tackle occurs. There is a very close support player. The ball carrier pops the ball to the support player. The ball only travels 600mm up from the tackle. (Easy height to catch.) Does an equally close chaser/defender then have to allow the support player to run two paces before tackling him because he is still in the tackle zone? According to some according to some previous comments, the defender would be offside. The defender cannot intercept the Ďpopí and has to avoid the ball? I personally have never seen a referee prevent or penalise such actions. I believe the only thing a referee can do to keep credibility would be to interpret the law in relation to the tackle as I have outlined.

The whole problem revolves around the scenario looking wrong rather than being incorrect.

What about at junior level? Some players arenít a metre tall in the first place!:D

Any law reference? No, my opinion has been based on discussing the matter with a couple of well-known international referees a few years ago. Iím desperately trying to find the written communications I had with them about the matter but since then I have changed computers several times and I cannot find the dialogue. That is the reason why I have delayed my response.

Pegleg
13-09-14, 11:09
So, in short, you can't. I think you therefore, need to be a little less definite in your comments. In your opinion? Maybe right. Clearly? Clearly not!

I'd judge the situation as I saw it at the time. I've already stated my opinion on the matter in question. It does not matter what "looks right or wrong". We must strive for what IS right. I'd referee the situation with regard to what appeared clear and obvious to me at the time.

Would you regard a pass where the ball is still "near" to the "tackle" as being the same as a "released" ball that due to momentum of the tackle goes upwards in a similar trajectory? We've seen that some posters see a pass as leaving the tackle zone as soon as it leave the hands (so 5 cm) would it be the same for the released ball travels 10cm in the same direction?

The law makers have not specifically said that a pass leaves the tackle zone before it has traveled past "near". So why treat the pass differently they do not. Until they do clarify others will have different opinions to you. Neither of you can claim their opinion is right with such gusto.

Dickie E
13-09-14, 11:09
So, in short, you can't. I think you therefore, need to be a little less definite in your comments. In your opinion? Maybe right. Clearly? Clearly not!



Indeed. Post #65 24 hours ago kicked off with:


It is very clear and simple.

LOL

Browner
13-09-14, 12:09
If i see the ball 'passed' out of/on completion of/immediately following a tackle, then I'm pleased.

As my slide ruler [used to calculate arrival angles and distance from the epi centre ( wherever that is???) of the tackle ] can then be put back into my pocket for now !

Ian_Cook
13-09-14, 12:09
Again, I go back to this, and I want someone of the other side of the debate from me to answer this

What if the tackled player pops the pass to a team-mate running in support, right next to the tackle, not in the gate, and less than 1m away?

Are you going to ping him for side entry?

Pegleg
13-09-14, 12:09
It would depend on whether or not I felt the ball had left the tackle area and if I felt it had not, whether or not it was clear and obvious. In al probability it would not be C & O so probably not.

damo
13-09-14, 12:09
Again, I go back to this, and I want someone of the other side of the debate from me to answer this

What if the tackled player pops the pass to a team-mate running in support, right next to the tackle, not in the gate, and less than 1m away?

Are you going to ping him for side entry?
Good luck with selling that to the captain.

Ian_Cook
13-09-14, 13:09
Good luck with selling that to the captain.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Not only will you not be able to sell that to the captain, I doubt if you'll be able to sell it to your assessor either.

If you wouldn't PK the team-mate, how can you justify PKing the opponent in the same situation.
Remember, 15.6 (d) applies to all "other" players from both teams.

ChrisR
13-09-14, 14:09
Again, I go back to this, and I want someone of the other side of the debate from me to answer this

What if the tackled player pops the pass to a team-mate running in support, right next to the tackle, not in the gate, and less than 1m away?

Are you going to ping him for side entry?

A tackle is akin to the Big Bang. In the sub-nano seconds following the event it's difficult to see what exactly happens and the Laws of rugby, like the laws of physics, get a little clearer as the event unfolds.

The ball is frequently offloaded before the tackle is complete so no tackle law applies. In Ian's scenario I would not see it as a side entry besides the fact that it would be difficult to be within 1m and not be in the gate.

The tackle laws do two things: They attempt to clean up what would otherwise be a total pileup and they give a tacit advantage to the team going forward. Therefore, the teammate of the BC can enter the tackle area going forward whereas the defenders have to go past the tackle and come back thru the gate to contest. I think that is a just reward for going forward.

And that brings up a different scenario. A kick fielded by an isolated player with all his teammates if front of him and a chaser from the kicking team makes the tackle. Would you PK the catchers teammate if he came back thru the wrong side of the gate to take the pop pass? I think you would have to.

Is there an emoticon for Chopperesque?

Ian_Cook
13-09-14, 14:09
Is there an emoticon for Chopperesque?


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/Smilies/helicopter-smile.gif

OB..
13-09-14, 20:09
It does not matter what "looks right or wrong". We must strive for what IS right. Since we are arguing about what IS right, that is effectively impossible.

When the law is unclear, the referee's only options are to do (a) what is widely accepted (if known); or (b) what seems to make sense to him.

As an assessor I would note the problem and include it in my report as a problem in the hope of authoritative advice.

Pegleg
13-09-14, 22:09
Surely we strive, when we referee, to make the right call not what looks right. Surely that is a given. Of course it is not always possible so to do. However, we should not default into making calls to "please the crowd". I'd rather make what I feel is the right call and, if required, have the chance to discuss it with the assessor and those more senior than I. That way I'll learn and develop.

Rushforth
13-09-14, 22:09
Surely we strive, when we referee, to make the right call not what looks right. Surely that is a given.

Surely what we think is right is what we think looks right?

Rich
14-09-14, 00:09
Play on. Good call. Move on.... Nothing to see here...

Taff
14-09-14, 07:09
Good luck with selling that to the captain.
But the hard fact is that YOU'RE the referee and it's you're call. You don't have to "sell" anything to anyone. It would be nice if you could, but at the end of the day the captain has to buy it.

Pegleg
14-09-14, 08:09
Surely what we think is right is what we think looks right?

Sadly no. sometime what look wrong or right is actually the opposite. We strive for right not wrong.

Pegleg
14-09-14, 08:09
But the hard fact is that YOU'RE the referee and it's you're call. You don't have to "sell" anything to anyone. It would be nice if you could, but at the end of the day the captain has to buy it.


Exactly. Look at the "urban myth" thread. We don't ping a player because "he's got to let him up". We make the right call. We explain our call. But if the players or any others don't buy it. That can't be our problem. You're correct Taff it is your call as a referee. Explain WHY and move on. They're not bound to agree (buy) your call but they're required to accept it and play on. It's not their call.

Ian_Cook
14-09-14, 10:09
But the hard fact is that YOU'RE the referee and it's you're call. You don't have to "sell" anything to anyone. It would be nice if you could, but at the end of the day the captain has to buy it.

Perhaps. but you are STILL going to have to sell it to your assessor (and I would not buy it at all).

OB..
14-09-14, 11:09
Surely what we think is right is what we think looks right?No. Some things are counter-intuitive (at least to some people).

There were calls for an offside line at the tackle, because it "looks the same as a ruck", so it was tried, and almost immediately proved to be the disaster some of us predicted, so it was dropped.

ChrisR
14-09-14, 11:09
Ian, thanx for "Chopperesque". I have a feeling it will come in handy.