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View Full Version : when most around you think otherwise ....trust your instincts



Browner
20-09-14, 23:09
Scrum awarded at 39.42s of 2nd half, my watch beeps between crouch & Bind .... Time up!
Home team trailing by 4 have attacking scrum & the feed & scrum is c.10m out in line with LH upright ( as we look)

Home side scrum has been under pressure all match, so they engineer a 'channel 1' hook.
Home scrum half picks up on the run & zips around the other side of the scrum towards the RH upright. This 50 yr old ref hits Max acceleration in desperation to get close to the next contact occasion.

SH gets outside the flanker and steps the 10 who in attempting to tackle him knocks 9 off his feet ( not held) I'm thinking " if he gets up quickly he scores" , but he doesn't. Instead he scrambles up onto his ones and dives forward ball in one hand about to plant the ball.

I'm not in the very best viewing position ,[ any positioning tips invited please] ( coz im not as quick as 9 and I'm behind him) but I think I see the ball slip outta his hand just before he grounds it ..... But I didn't see a grounding partly because of my inferior positioning.

Home crowd all celebrate, home players do likewise . I blow immediately and signal knock on and then I end the game , to howls of dismay from the locals and their players.

I become aware that the Defending side arent really claiming a knock-on vociferously, so I'm starting to think I might have signalled the most critical of errors, !!!!!!! but then ........

I look at the 9 who has that " oh no, I've let the ball slip" look on his face , as he thumps the ground in self annoyance.

It gives me all the confirmation I needed, I got it right, spot on , thank you EYES ..... Home team are still demanding TRY, but 9 looks at me at shrugs ..... " good call ref,.... I fycked it up"

"Thanks 9, appreciate that" I retort

Gradually the Home side start to recognise the 9s non celebration and the dissapointment changes into reluctant accepting.

Even in the bar, many spectators think I got it wrong, but home captain corrects any moaner.

Dead impressed with attitude of home team 9 & capt. & the reason for this tale is to slightly redress some of the bad press sometimes posted

FightOrFlight
21-09-14, 00:09
I had an almost polar opposite happening the other week. 8 picks off a 5m scrum...goes over the line and drops the ball forward(from about 2 foot above the ground) and it rolls dead for a 22. I call 22 and he goes nuts and approaches me roaring with "FFS ref are you blind...that's a try".....so anyway :yellow: and pen to the oppo on the 22....they take the touch and the hooker goes down with cramp so watch stops....I'm close to the side-line and I hear a "excuse me sir"...turn around and there is a suit who identifies himself as the Club Chair. He apologises on behalf of the club for the dishonesty of the player and assures me he will serve a club suspension.

So decent form from the club there anyway.

The Fat
21-09-14, 00:09
I had an almost polar opposite happening the other week. 8 picks off a 5m scrum...goes over the line and drops the ball forward(from about 2 foot above the ground) and it rolls dead for a 22. I call 22 and he goes nuts and approaches me roaring with "FFS ref are you blind...that's a try".....so anyway :yellow: and pen to the oppo on the 22....they take the touch and the hooker goes down with cramp so watch stops....I'm close to the side-line and I hear a "excuse me sir"...turn around and there is a suit who identifies himself as the Club Chair. He apologises on behalf of the club for the dishonesty of the player and assures me he will serve a club suspension.

So decent form from the club there anyway.

So the No.8 knocks on in in-goal and the ball rolls dead.
You award a 22 DO. Why not a 5m scrum in line with where the knock-on occurred with defending team to throw the ball in?

FightOrFlight
21-09-14, 00:09
So the No.8 knocks on in in-goal and the ball rolls dead.
You award a 22 DO. Why not a 5m scrum in line with where the knock-on occurred with defending team to throw the ball in?

Knock on rolled dead....so option of scrum or 22. Like when a knock on goes into touch...option of scrum or lineout.

The Fat
21-09-14, 00:09
Knock on rolled dead....so option of scrum or 22. Like when a knock on goes into touch...option of scrum or lineout.

Although you probably will be able to sell the decision quite easily, it is not correct in law.
I have seen other referees do exactly what you did and no-one question it but if you want the correct decision, it is a 5m scrum.

22.13 Attacking infringement with scrum sanction

If an attacking player commits an infringement in in-goal, for which the sanction is a scrum, for example, a knock-on, play is restarted with a 5-metre scrum. The scrum is formed in line with the place of the infringement and the defending team throws in the ball.




12.1 The outcome of a knock-on or throw forward



(d) Knock-on or throw forward inside the in-goal. If a player of either team knocks-on or throws-forward inside the in-goal, a 5-metre scrum is awarded in line with the place of infringement not closer than 5 metres from the touchline.

FightOrFlight
21-09-14, 01:09
Although you probably will be able to sell the decision quite easily, it is not correct in law.
I have seen other referees do exactly what you did and no-one question it but if you want the correct decision, it is a 5m scrum.

12.1(d)
Knock-on or throw forward inside the in-goal. If a player of either team knocks-on or throws-forward inside the in-goal, a 5-metre scrum is awarded in line with the place of infringement not closer than 5 metres from the touchline.

For me it is a little bit of an open ended question. The law above covers knock ons in in goal however it does not state if the ball crosses the dead ball line.

For me after the knock on in goal the fact the ball is still live until it crosses the line means that an option should be available. There is nowhere in law that says there should be but if law is consistent with:

12.1(e)
Knock-on or throw forward into touch. When the ball goes into touch from a knock-on or throw forward, the non-offending team will have the option of a lineout at the point the ball crossed the touch line or a scrum at the place of the knock-on or throw forward, or a quick throw in.

then there should be an option offered. After all a knock on in the field of play is a scrum unless it crosses the line. So a knock on in in goal should be a scrum only unless it rolls dead...then the option comes available.

Law seems not to provide for the happening but for me there is more provision in law for the option than there is against it.

menace
21-09-14, 01:09
Flight -I agree with Fatty...5m scrum.

AFAIA - 'touch', 'touch-in-goal', and 'dead ball line' are all specific words in the law to mean specifically different things. 'Touch' is not a generic term that is interchangeable with those 3 items (see the law book ..law 1 The Ground where it labels them). Therefore I don't think you can use 12.1(e) for your scenario. Had you gone with 2nd offence and more advantage for the 22, then I could live with that.

Though I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Edit: actually on second thought does putting the ball over the deadball line after a knock on constitute a 2nd offence?

menace
21-09-14, 01:09
Ps. Good call browner, although lucky.

'Do try to get in goal quicker old chap' A Assessor.

The Fat
21-09-14, 02:09
Flight -I agree with Fatty...5m scrum.

AFAIA - 'touch', 'touch-in-goal', and 'dead ball line' are all specific words in the law to mean specifically different things. 'Touch' is not a generic term that is interchangeable with those 3 items (see the law book ..law 1 The Ground where it labels them). Therefore I don't think you can use 12.1(e) for your scenario. Had you gone with 2nd offence and more advantage for the 22, then I could live with that.

Though I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Edit: actually on second thought does putting the ball over the deadball line after a knock on constitute a 2nd offence?

There was a response from the IRB to a question posed by Andre Watson earlier this year regarding Touch-in-goal and DBL being treated the same (see below). However, what we have here is ForF arguing that the option of a 22DO should be available on the basis that a knock-on into touch provides for the option of a scrum or LO. I cannot see how we can extrapolate that to include the option of something completely different, namely a 22 DO, for a ball that is knocked-on in in-goal and rolls dead.
If the knock-on occurred 1m inside the FoP and the ball rolled into in-goal and then was made dead there either by a touch-down or by crossing the TiG or DBL it would still be only a scrum (i.e. no option). For the option to be offered, the ball that is knocked-on in the FoP must cross the touch-line. This requirement backs up your suggestion that the touch-line and TiG/DBLs are treated differently.

Receiving the line-out option 5m from your own goal-line is vastly different from having the option of a 22DO where you could send the ball to the oppo's 22. I can't see FightOrFlight's reasoning for comparing the two as equitable.
I'm not attacking FightOrFlight's decision as I have seen other experienced refs (at my level) award the same. Just pointing out there is no justification in law for that decision.

DEAD-BALL LINE TO BE TREATED AS TOUCH-IN-GOAL LINE
From SA Refs website

30 Jul 2014
The IRB has spoken and for purposes of deciding about in in-goal or not, the dead-ball line is to be treated as the touch-in-goal line.
This follows debate following a try by George North in the Pro 12 League and a try by van Wyk at ]Craven week and a near try for the Hurricanes in Super Rugby.
The matter was discussed on this website - http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-two-tries-at-craven-week/2830201/ - and on Rugby365 - http://www.rugby365.com/article/61214-law-discussion-tries-at-craven-week. (In the Rugby365 case there are clips to go with the article.)
Currently there is a problem in the wording of the law: Law 22.4 (g) Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If an attacking player is in touch or in touch-in-goal, the player can score a try by grounding the ball in the opponents’ in-goal provided the player is not carrying the ball.
The problem is that no mention is made of the dead-ball line.
André Watson, the manager of SA Referees, referred the matter to the International Rugby Board who are rugby's lawmakers.
He received the following reply: "To this date referees have treated the dead ball line the same as the touch in-goal line.
"A try scored by George North for Llanelli Scarlets against Cardiff Blues with Derek Bevan as the TMO got it spot on in accordance with that interpretation."
With a bit of luck the law will be made clearer.

FightOrFlight
21-09-14, 02:09
Flight -I agree with Fatty...5m scrum.

AFAIA - 'touch', 'touch-in-goal', and 'dead ball line' are all specific words in the law to mean specifically different things. 'Touch' is not a generic term that is interchangeable with those 3 items (see the law book ..law 1 The Ground where it labels them). Therefore I don't think you can use 12.1(e) for your scenario. Had you gone with 2nd offence and more advantage for the 22, then I could live with that.

Though I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Edit: actually on second thought does putting the ball over the deadball line after a knock on constitute a 2nd offence?

I'm not seeking to interchange them. I am pointing out that when the ball in knocked on in the field of play and rolls to touch it is made dead by going into touch. When it is knocked on in goal it goes dead by crossing the dead ball here. Surely the option should exist in both in theory and as law does not stipulate otherwise the argument could be made. A team may choose a lineout from a knock on to touch if their scrum is weak or vice versa.

I cannot see a case where a team would choose a 5m scrum on their own line over a 22 though unless their kicker was hopeless and even then they'd probably take their chances.

Taking it to a more interesting level you could argue that as referee as the ball crosses the dead ball line you judge advantage over although you may not call it aloud as the instant the ball crosses the line they have gained an advantage over what they would have had if you blew it up and gave the scrum(ie a 22). It's much the same as you would do when they regather make the gain line and you call advantage over. The advantage is the 22 they may want over the 5m scrum they may not want in they are under pressure.

Simon Thomas
21-09-14, 08:09
Fightorflight - this knock on in, or into, goal area has always been interpreted as a scrum 5 decision, and is a well known one to those on Panel and Group as we had it as part of pre-season seminar session a few years ago.

That was before the introduction of the knock-on into touch option by IRB. Follow your logical argument, but it is dead-ball line not touch in goal in your case - is it different ? The option is for touch in the field of play.

On balance I would still be looking for you to award a scrum 5m, not 22m, in line with usual practice, once any advantage had been unsuccessfully offered.

Browner
21-09-14, 09:09
Ps. Good call browner, although lucky.

'Do try to get in goal quicker old chap' A Assessor.

I tried, but after watching a straight feed & channel 1 ball , I struggled to keep up with a speedy 9 (c. half my age )

What do other refs do?, if I take a short cut around the defensive 8 anticipating a speedy break, then I'm not able to view any interference of the defending 9 on his oppo 8 or 9 at the rear of their scrum if the ball sticks there.

Or maybe I should set off before the ball is fed? Ignore any crooked on the % chance that my eyes might be needed elsewhere...

Aside from developing acceleration beyond my age/ability, does anyone have any realistic tips?

FightOrFlight
21-09-14, 14:09
Fightorflight - this knock on in, or into, goal area has always been interpreted as a scrum 5 decision, and is a well known one to those on Panel and Group as we had it as part of pre-season seminar session a few years ago.

That was before the introduction of the knock-on into touch option by IRB. Follow your logical argument, but it is dead-ball line not touch in goal in your case - is it different ? The option is for touch in the field of play.

On balance I would still be looking for you to award a scrum 5m, not 22m, in line with usual practice, once any advantage had been unsuccessfully offered.

Well the point I'm making is that when the player knocks on in goal and it rolls toward the dead ball line I can call advantage if there is a player there to play it and run the length to dot down the other end. I have had a few games where a captain will tell me following an oppo knock on that "we dont want the scrum sir play on" as his team are being slaughtered in the scrum. I do not play scrum advantage then as he had elected not to take it and will play whatever outcome instead. In this case the more advantageous outcome is the 22 not the 5m scrum. It seems an overly unfair outcome for the defensive team.

Phil E
21-09-14, 15:09
Knock on in goal, Scrum 5.
Doesn't matter what happens next.

OB..
21-09-14, 16:09
Well the point I'm making is that when the player knocks on in goal and it rolls toward the dead ball line I can call advantage if there is a player there to play it and run the length to dot down the other end. I have had a few games where a captain will tell me following an oppo knock on that "we dont want the scrum sir play on" as his team are being slaughtered in the scrum. I do not play scrum advantage then as he had elected not to take it and will play whatever outcome instead. In this case the more advantageous outcome is the 22 not the 5m scrum. It seems an overly unfair outcome for the defensive team.


Knock on in goal, Scrum 5.
Doesn't matter what happens next.

Phil is right. Such artificial advantage is inappropriate. The team has done nothing to earn it.

didds
21-09-14, 16:09
I am sure Simon will garee with me that this #9 is not a "real" #9 ;-)

didds

Simon Thomas
21-09-14, 16:09
Well the point I'm making is that when the player knocks on in goal and it rolls toward the dead ball line I can call advantage if there is a player there to play it and run the length to dot down the other end. I have had a few games where a captain will tell me following an oppo knock on that "we dont want the scrum sir play on" as his team are being slaughtered in the scrum. I do not play scrum advantage then as he had elected not to take it and will play whatever outcome instead. In this case the more advantageous outcome is the 22 not the 5m scrum. It seems an overly unfair outcome for the defensive team.

I have every sympathy for your effort to play advantage and looking at the contet of a team who are getting stuffed up front. The official RFU interpretation is that if a genuine advantage is not gained, you must return and award a 5m defensive scrum not a 22m drop-out - it may be different in Ireland.

Dickie E
21-09-14, 22:09
I tried, but after watching a straight feed & channel 1 ball , I struggled to keep up with a speedy 9 (c. half my age )

What do other refs do?, if I take a short cut around the defensive 8 anticipating a speedy break, then I'm not able to view any interference of the defending 9 on his oppo 8 or 9 at the rear of their scrum if the ball sticks there.

Or maybe I should set off before the ball is fed? Ignore any crooked on the % chance that my eyes might be needed elsewhere...

Aside from developing acceleration beyond my age/ability, does anyone have any realistic tips?

No help from your ARs?

Browner
22-09-14, 04:09
No help from your ARs?

Nah Dickie, no AR's for this match.

ChrisR
22-09-14, 05:09
Browner,

I'm no longer able to keep up with the U-19 boys that I coach and frequently have to ref. Therefor, at rucks, I try to be in the best position for the next likely event. Usually that means I'm on the defenders side of the ruck in the "jockey" position. Not ideal if the team in possesion don't make a gain but it keeps me out of the way.

In your OP I'd say that being on the defenders side (goal side) you would have been there to see the knock/no knock.

ctrainor
25-09-14, 20:09
If I notice my watch is close to time up and about to beep in situations like this I switch it off. You are the sole judge of time so this gives you room to manage any situation. Whenever I get asked how long sir I usually say not long, or in answer to the call is it last play? I usually say could be unless the game has been stopped for a penalty or free kick then I will tell them.

Diego
03-10-14, 01:10
Knock on in goal, then ball goes dead = Scrum 5 (no advantage call)

JJ10
03-10-14, 07:10
I gave this same call (scrum 5 from knock on/failed try scoring attempt that went dead) in a 7s tournment the other day (yep, playing sevens in September!) and got questioned by the defending team, who would obviously rather the 22. They went on to get turned over at the scrum, and shipped a try under the posts. Lost the game. Glad to see i got this spot on as despite my on confidence the field I was't totally sure.

I can see what FoF means by it not being a "fair advantage" but in reality the defending side haven't done anything to "earn" anything more than a scrum.

crossref
03-10-14, 09:10
If I notice my watch is close to time up and about to beep in situations like this I switch it off. You are the sole judge of time so this gives you room to manage any situation. Whenever I get asked how long sir I usually say not long, or in answer to the call is it last play? I usually say could be unless the game has been stopped for a penalty or free kick then I will tell them.

I got a watch that vibrates, for exactly that reason. it's not always helpful for players to hear a beep, as they may misinterpret it (it might not be the full time beep)

OB..
03-10-14, 12:10
I can see what FoF means by it not being a "fair advantage" but in reality the defending side haven't done anything to "earn" anything more than a scrum.Precisely.

TheBFG
03-10-14, 12:10
I got a watch that vibrates, for exactly that reason. it's not always helpful for players to hear a beep, as they may misinterpret it (it might not be the full time beep)

yep, turned my beep off too, just vibrate!

crossref
03-10-14, 13:10
especially useful if (ahem) you are having to 'adjust' the time per your watch for some reason, like forgetting to stop or start it at some point during the game.
Not that that ever happens of course.

Phil E
03-10-14, 14:10
yep, turned my beep off too, just vibrate!

Are you still talking about watches or did the conversation move on? :biggrin:


especially useful if (ahem) you are having to 'adjust' the time per your watch for some reason, like forgetting to stop or start it at some point during the game.
Not that that ever happens of course.

Not if you have a Spintso Watch :biggrin:

crossref
03-10-14, 14:10
Not if you have a Spintso Watch :biggrin:

it's on my Christmas list :)

Phil E
03-10-14, 14:10
it's on my Christmas list :)

I hope you have big wrists!! Keep getting asked if I can get Sky Sports on mine.

thepercy
03-10-14, 15:10
I gave this same call (scrum 5 from knock on/failed try scoring attempt that went dead) in a 7s tournment the other day (yep, playing sevens in September!) and got questioned by the defending team, who would obviously rather the 22. They went on to get turned over at the scrum, and shipped a try under the posts. Lost the game. Glad to see i got this spot on as despite my on confidence the field I was't totally sure.

I can see what FoF means by it not being a "fair advantage" but in reality the defending side haven't done anything to "earn" anything more than a scrum.

Would/could you call 22DO advantage if the ball was knocked on into in goal, and kick over the DBL by a defender?

Phil E
03-10-14, 15:10
Would/could you call 22DO advantage if the ball was knocked on into in goal, and kick over the DBL by a defender?

No!

It's a scrum 5 to the defenders.

Browner
03-10-14, 15:10
Would/could you call 22DO advantage if the ball was knocked on into in goal, and kick over the DBL by a defender?

12.1(c)
c)
Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.