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Steve70
22-09-14, 21:09
Evening all - I'm new to the forum, having been through ELRA (as it was) earlier in the year, and having been reffing U13/12/11/10 for the last few years (also head coach at our juniors club) .... so sorry if this has already been covered....but i'm registering with the Berks Soc and am reffing U14 this weekend (a friendly, with a friendly atmosphere for my first step up!) and the more I read the rules the more questions appear! (I played at 9 so rules never meant much back then... :biggrin:)


Just a clarification of which direction the tackler can play the ball from -

15.4 (c) says tackler can play the ball from any direction once he's got up. Tackled has to get up and come in from behind. Got that...but...

15.6 (c) says players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball.....

...but aren't the players referred to in 15.6 (c) actually tacklers and therefore can play the ball from any direction? is the difference the fact that the tackler(s) in 15.6 (c) is/are staying on their feet?


This leads onto two further dumb questions...(usual sort of scenario with U12/13)

1. If tackler and tackled player go to ground but both keep hold of the ball during the tackle, who do you ping? i'm assuming the tackled player as he had it in the first place?

2. If subsequently red player and blue player enter the tackle legally and grab the ball at the same time, and the inevitable tug of war begins, we wait till someone else joins the fray and rips/mauls ....but if they then collapse on the ground - no tackle - then presumably they both have to release and get up before playing the ball again....?


Sorry - these sound dumb questions but in the mess of junior breakdowns, I find it a bit tricky to work out just where they've all come from !

Pegleg
22-09-14, 21:09
You are only a tackler IF you go to ground in making the tackle. If you do not you have a tackle without a tackler. Of course there can be tackles with more than one tackler.

The order of your watch list should be:

Tackler - Must release the tackler.
Tackled player - Must release / place or pass the ball and then get up.
Arriving players - Must come from their own side "through the gate" and stay on their feet.

Call "TACKLE" nice and loud and watch. Keep on you toes ready to run. Watch for the Tackle turning into a "ruck". Don't be afraid to blow quickly if you think the ball is not coming out of there.

Pegleg
22-09-14, 21:09
Remember that if a maul goes to ground nobody has to release or roll away. If the ball in not emerging, blow quickly and Turnover ball.

Be firm early doors so you gain and keep control. You can cut them more slack as you feel more confident. Don't play advantage after foul play until you are very sure you can handle the "tone" of a game. No one will blame you (well someone will but sod them!).

Dixie
22-09-14, 21:09
Steve70, welcome to the forum - and welcome to the wonderful world of reffing juniors. I'd guess if you've made it to head coach without taking the whistle to date, you don't see this as an alternative career path!

Your questions indicate that the tackle sequence remains a bit of a mystery. It's important (vital!) to get clear in your mind exactly what you expect to see, so you can recognise when something looks wrong. This is a great place to start conceptualising those things.

Your first question is really quite advanced rugby - you are unlikely to see this scenario even at Level 8 (roughly Reading, Windsor or Redingensians 2nd XV). I hope you don't mind if I start with your second question, which really gets to the heart of the ref's perception of the tackle process.

Let's assume both tackler and tackled player go to ground during the tackle. The law requires two things to happen immediately: the tackler player to release the tackled player and roll away; and the tackled player to exercise his options - usually to release the ball (which he can do by placing it in any direction) - and roll away. In practice, the tackled player can't exercise his options while wrapped up by the tackler, so we require the tackler to release first. If the tackled player hangs on because he was prevented from placing the ball or passing it, we penalise the tackler, as we expect him to act first by releasing the tackled player.


2. If subsequently red player and blue player enter the tackle legally and grab the ball at the same time, and the inevitable tug of war begins, we wait till someone else joins the fray and rips/mauls ....but if they then collapse on the ground - no tackle - then presumably they both have to release and get up before playing the ball again....? Have they got the ball off the ground? If not, call Ruck - hands away (two oppo in contact over the ball - very little chance they are not touching each other). If they have, then we are in open play. A new arrival creates a maul. If they then collapse, Law 17.6(b) is your friend:

17.6(b) A maul ends unsuccessfully if the ball becomes unplayable or collapses (not as a result of foul play) and a scrum is ordered. Attacking team put-in.

As to your first question, as Pegleg says, you can have a tackle without a tackler. To be a tackler, the defender must hit the deck. Someone on his feet who brings the ball carrier to ground is not a tackler, and so has to attempt to play the ball from behind the ball and behind the tackled player.

Complex stuff! Bet you've never bellowed at a ref who was making those calls in the heat of the moment while you had it all clear in your mind! :wink:

Steve70
22-09-14, 22:09
So these guys.... "players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled ...... may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball...." are essentially players who have managed to stay on their feet (chucking the ball carrier to the ground and letting go, in effect) have to come in round the back to play the ball....

...unlike a 'tackler' who ends up on the floor who can get up immediately and play from any direction.

That sort of makes sense.


And I agree about the maul - but if there is a tug of war that ends up on the floor, i assume that's an unplayable ball (unless a ruck forms over the top and no hands called) and scrum to the team moving forward/attacking....

Taff
22-09-14, 22:09
....unlike a 'tackler' who ends up on the floor who can get up immediately and play from any direction.
The tackler can play the ball from any direction provided the ruck hasn't formed.

Once the ruck has formed (ie 2 opposing players both on their feet over the ball on the ground) he's lost his chance to play the ball.

Steve70
22-09-14, 22:09
whoops - just crossed replies... yep - all makes sense. Great replies.


at SH, I just tried to get away with any means of digging balls out of piles of bodies..... generally from the back, usually late, so I never really paid much attention to how they ended up like that in the first place! Spent most of the time staring at the ref in disbelief at some infringement I'd imagined....

I've reffed probably every week over the last two or three years at juniors (U10-13) and am loving it... I'm moving towards reffing more rather than coaching now... still playing the odd 2nds and vets but prefer reffing. Seems wrong.... :biggrin:


Anyway,


I take your point about the complexities of my first question....it does happen at juniors - after a tackle, players arrive at the scene from all directions - you shout and most get onside, but some still go in over the top, and some will try and come round - sometimes you get the original tackler as they've managed to get up and contest the ball - but it's the others who may have assisted the tackle who I'm asking about - but you've answered that - cheers.

Browner
23-09-14, 10:09
. at SH, I just tried to get away with any means of digging balls out of piles of bodies..... generally from the back, usually late, so I never really paid much attention to how they ended up like that in the first place! Spent most of the time staring at the ref in disbelief at some infringement I'd imagined.... .
You've described most 9's perfectly !



. I've reffed probably every week over the last two or three years at juniors (U10-13) and am loving it... I'm moving towards reffing more rather than coaching now... still playing the odd 2nds and vets but prefer reffing. Seems wrong....

Reffing rarely hurts as much two days after a match ! Sounds like your hooked, we've all been there ....

Keep it up, Good luck.

Decorily
23-09-14, 11:09
The tackler can play the ball from any direction provided the ruck hasn't formed.

Once the ruck has formed (ie 2 opposing players both on their feet over the ball on the ground) he's lost his chance to play the ball.



Once the ruck has formed he hasn't necessarily lost his chance to play the ball......remember, if he had his hands on the ball before the ruck formed he can continue to dig and be legal!!

Phil E
23-09-14, 12:09
Once the ruck has formed he hasn't necessarily lost his chance to play the ball......remember, if he had his hands on the ball before the ruck formed he can continue to dig and be legal!!

If he has got to dig, then he hasn't got possession!!

If he had possession and then lost it, he cant go back in for a second bite of the cherry.

Decorily
23-09-14, 12:09
If he has got to dig, then he hasn't got possession!!

If he had possession and then lost it, he cant go back in for a second bite of the cherry.

Yes Phil, of course you are correct. My bad choice of word... 'dig' gives the wrong impression.

To clarify, if he had his hands on the ball prior to the ruck forming he does NOT have to let the ball go and can continue to 'pull' the ball in the ruck without being penalised for hands in.

Browner
23-09-14, 13:09
If he has got to dig, then he hasn't got possession!!

If he had possession and then lost it, he cant go back in for a second bite of the cherry.

As written, "Possession" isn't actually a requirement Phil.

( I'm aware that possession was mentioned in clarification 4\2009 , but when 16.4.(b) was then reworded to incorporate 4\2009, it didn't carry forward possession into law wording)

16.4(b)
Handling the ball 'in a Ruck' is a single exception to law with only ONE qualification ,

PROVIDED you had your hands on the ball prior to ruck formation ( this is a subtle but different test standard than actually having possession) then 16.4(b) allows a player to use hands after ruck formation.

Nowhere does Law limit the number of grab/attempts once the qualification permission is met, even after the aforementioned ruck is created.

Unless I've missed it?

Phil E
23-09-14, 14:09
So you are saying that a player may lay his hands on the ball prior to a ruck forming, such that he has no intention of attempting to pick up the ball or contest for it.
The ruck then forms.
If he then gets driven back so that his hands lose contact with the ball, you are quite happy for that player to then (or maybe a minute later) go back into the ruck and pick the ball up or flick it back?

and for clarity, I am not asking what the law says, I am asking what you allow.

Womble
23-09-14, 16:09
All referee's need to improve this area of the game ! In my last 3 matches "Sir" has not refereed the "assist tackler" & as a consequence the tackle area has become a mess ! All referees need clear pictures in their head of what is needed & set high standards. As for the ball on the floor, once the "jackler" has lost contact I would not let him have another go !

Blackberry
23-09-14, 16:09
Guys, we need a glossary. Can you explain what a jackler and a tackle assist is, and what rights / responsibilities they have? I've been hearing subtly different interpretations lately.

Womble
23-09-14, 16:09
Tackled player : Ball carrier brought to ground & held.
Tackler : Player who brings "tackled player" to ground and goes to ground themselves
Tackle assist : Player who stays on his feet & brings Tackled player to ground ( tackle without a "tackler" )
Jackler : first player to arrive at tackle, stay on his feet ( like that happens) ;) and plays the ball pre ruck

crossref
23-09-14, 16:09
Tackled player : Ball carrier brought to ground & held.
Tackler : Player who brings "tackled player" to ground and goes to ground themselves
Tackle assist : Player who stays on his feet & brings Tackled player to ground ( tackle without a "tackler" )
Jackler : first player to arrive at tackle, stay on his feet ( like that happens) ;) and plays the ball pre ruck

not quite - actually a tackled player is a ball carrier who is held and brought to ground [and then must be released]

Here's the Law
A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.

A ball carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place.

Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.

Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.

Dixie
23-09-14, 17:09
Tackled player : Ball carrier brought to ground & held.
Tackler : Player who brings "tackled player" to ground and goes to ground themselves
Tackle assist : Player who stays on his feet & brings Tackled player to ground ( tackle without a "tackler" ) or who, while not himself going to ground, assists the tackler to bring the ball carrier to ground
Jackler : first player to arrive at tackle, stay on his feet ( like that happens) ;) and plays the ball pre ruck

So much for the definitions - slightly edited above for completeness. As to what rights and responsibilities they have, I guess only the tackle assist and jackler need a response as tackled player and tackler are very clearly laid down in law:

Tackle Assist:

1) remain on feet
2) clear release of the tackled player
3) (debatable) no need to exit the tackle zone and re-enter, but must reposition as necessary so that (s)he is behind the ball and behind the tackled player and/or tackler
4) Only from that position can (s)he play the ball

Jackler (if different from tackler or tackle assist):

a) must enter the tackle zone through the gate
b) must remain on feet
c) if latches onto the ball prior to a ruck forming, may keep hands on the ball while ruck is on progress
d) if loses grip on ball, becomes just another rucker with no special privileges
e) when so required by Sir, must release the ball (likely only if he's unaware that a ruck formed before he got to the ball, or has lost contact for a moment and then regrasped the ball)
f) must leave the field when shown yellow or red card (usually happens twice every three games).

Jackler (if immediately previously acted as either tackler or tackle assist):

a) may remain in tackle zone, but if previously tackle assist must reposition as noted above
b) must remain on feet
c) if latches onto the ball prior to a ruck forming, may keep hands on the ball while ruck is on progress
d) if loses grip on ball, becomes just another rucker with no special privileges
e) when so required by Sir, must release the ball (likely only if he's unaware that a ruck formed before he got to the ball, or has lost contact for a moment and then regrasped the ball)
f) must leave the field when shown yellow or red card (usually happens twice every three games).

Womble
23-09-14, 17:09
That was my in game "check list" Dixie ;) but for sure , your list is far more complete for this forum xx

Pegleg
23-09-14, 20:09
not quite - actually a tackled player is a ball carrier who is held and brought to ground [and then must be released]

Here's the Law
[LAWS]A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.

As you corrctly say: "Held and brought to ground" rather than "Brought to ground and held". An important difference!

Womble
23-09-14, 23:09
Does anyone referee it that way? Players find it very hard to tackle a player without holding him !!!! so we don't need that bit in our thought process!! Referee what matters.... Was the tackle completed with the player being held on the floor? if yes go through your tackle thought process. If not then the ball carrier may get up and play on.....

Wedgie
24-09-14, 02:09
f) must leave the field when shown yellow or red card (usually happens twice every three games).
LOL. Making like Billy-no-mates, eating a decidedly average lump of meat in the hotel bar, read the above and literally spat out a mouthful of food back on to the plate to the disgust of the rest of the clientele...

Pegleg
24-09-14, 07:09
Does anyone referee it that way? Players find it very hard to tackle a player without holding him !!!! so we don't need that bit in our thought process!! Referee what matters.... Was the tackle completed with the player being held on the floor? if yes go through your tackle thought process. If not then the ball carrier may get up and play on.....

Well if you don't you're doing it wrong. A tackler must hold the tackled player in the tackle and take them to the ground. Once there he must release immediately. So "tackle and held" is wrong. As long as the player is held at the moment he goes to ground job done. Your interpretation leads to, "he's not held" shouts when the tackler complies with the law by releasing immediately and why we see refs allowing players to get to their feet following a tackle still carrying the ball - in error.

Ian_Cook
24-09-14, 07:09
Well if you don't you're doing it wrong. A tackler must hold the tackled player in the tackle and take them to the ground. Once there he must release immediately. So "tackle and held" is wrong. As long as the player is held at the moment he goes to ground job done. Your interpretation leads to, "he's not held" shouts when the tackler complies with the law by releasing immediately and why we see refs allowing players to get to their feet following a tackle still carrying the ball - in error.

It can be a tricky one though. What if the BC goes down on one knee and so does the tackler. Technically, that is a tackle. If the tackler then releases by falling off the tackle (i.e., involuntarily), how many referees are going to ping the ball carrier if he bounces back up off his knee?

What I like to see is the tackler holding the ball carrier for a small fraction of a second, say 1/3s to 1/2s, after they both go to ground, just to indicate to the referee that the tackle is complete. If we force the immediacy of the release then it becomes too fine a line between a tackler releasing and a tackler letting go before the BC is grounded.

A small "overlap" helps everyone involved to know where they stand.,


ETA: Interestingly, South African referee Lourens van der Merwe use the expression "brought to ground and held". See Question 5

http://www.sareferees.com/ref-replies/duty-ref-459--lourens-van-der-merwe/2829590/

"If the ball-carrier is brought to ground and held, a tackle has occurred."

Blackberry
24-09-14, 08:09
I'm with Ian and Womble; if a tackled player goes down and seamlessly rolls straight back up with the grace of Fred Astair, I would be very likely to play on. The tackler needs to spend that fraction of a second to bring the tackled player to a halt. Then, the tackled player's attempt to get to his feet will look very different, and easier to manage for a ref.

Adam
24-09-14, 09:09
f) must leave the field when shown yellow or red card (usually happens twice every three games).

Only that frequent if you're behind the play and have missed the first infringement or are too out of breath to proactively communicate...

Phil E
24-09-14, 10:09
I seem to remember that we have discussed this before and the general consensus (well almost everyone apart from Crossref :deadhorse:) was that both actions (brought to ground and Held (yes I put it round that way on purpose)) are usually done together....hence the use of the word AND. The law doesn't say one, THEN the other. It says one AND the other.

But hey, I lost interest in this thread when the :deadhorse: raised its head!

crossref
24-09-14, 10:09
my only point is that the sequence of words is important. In natural language, two verbs with an 'and' implies a sequence.
hit and run is different from run and hit
shake and vac is different from vac and shake
listen and learn is different from learn and listen

bring to ground and hold IS different from hold and bring to ground, and what the Laws say is the second.

Holding has to come to first, else you could knock someone down and grab them.

Dixie said in post #2

It's important (vital!) to get clear in your mind exactly what you expect to see, so you can recognise when something looks wrong.

I agree with those wise words.
My contention is that IF you have lodged in your mind the incorrect phrase 'brought to ground and held' then you eill have the wrong model. The consequences are
- you will be allowing tacklers too much time to release
- you will sometimes be incorrectly allowing tackled players who are quikcly released to get back up

because you have the wrong phrase lodged in your brain.

Lodge in the correct phrase 'held and brought to ground' and your refereeing the tackle will be more accurate.

Browner
24-09-14, 11:09
So much for the definitions - slightly edited above for completeness. As to what rights and responsibilities they have, I guess only the tackle assist and jackler need a response as tackled player and tackler are very clearly laid down in law:

Tackle Assist:

1) remain on feet
2) clear release of the tackled player
3) (debatable) no need to exit the tackle zone and re-enter, but must reposition as necessary so that (s)he is behind the ball and behind the tackled player and/or tackler
4) Only from that position can (s)he play the ball

Jackler (if different from tackler or tackle assist):

a) must enter the tackle zone through the gate
b) must remain on feet
c) if latches onto the ball prior to a ruck forming, may keep hands on the ball while ruck is on progress
d) if loses grip on ball, becomes just another rucker with no special privileges
e) when so required by Sir, must release the ball (likely only if he's unaware that a ruck formed before he got to the ball, or has lost contact for a moment and then regrasped the ball)
f) must leave the field when shown yellow or red card (usually happens twice every three games).

Jackler (if immediately previously acted as either tackler or tackle assist):

a) may remain in tackle zone, but if previously tackle assist must reposition as noted above
b) must remain on feet
c) if latches onto the ball prior to a ruck forming, may keep hands on the ball while ruck is on progress
d) if loses grip on ball, becomes just another rucker with no special privileges
e) when so required by Sir, must release the ball (likely only if he's unaware that a ruck formed before he got to the ball, or has lost contact for a moment and then regrasped the ball)
f) must leave the field when shown yellow or red card (usually happens twice every three games).

Re: both jacklers.
D&E ?... Permission to keep handling the ball 'once qualified/permitted to do so ' ( by virtue of hands on prior to forming) only seemingly ends when the ruck ends. Or can you find any reference/clarification that says it ends earlier?

menace
24-09-14, 11:09
Well if you don't you're doing it wrong. A tackler must hold the tackled player in the tackle and take them to the ground. Once there he must release immediately. So "tackle and held" is wrong.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm pretty sure that since Womble has secured a spot in the National Panel that he's more than likely got there by knowing what he's doing? I can't be sure but I have a hunch he didn't get the job via a lotto ticket? So I'm sure he knows a tackle when he sees one. But I could be wrong!:biggrin:

crossref
24-09-14, 11:09
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm pretty sure that since Womble has secured a spot in the National Panel that he's more than likely got there by knowing what he's doing? I can't be sure but I have a hunch he didn't get the job via a lotto ticket? So I'm sure he knows a tackle when he sees one. But I could be wrong!:biggrin:

if you read womble's post carefully he is saying that the sequence of words does matter, that a referee with the phrase 'brought to ground and held' in his mind will tend referee it differently from one who is thinking 'held and brought to ground'

womble says that even though the Law is held and brought to ground, the best way to referee is to have in mind the phrase brought to ground and held...

Pegleg
24-09-14, 12:09
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm pretty sure that since Womble has secured a spot in the National Panel that he's more than likely got there by knowing what he's doing? I can't be sure but I have a hunch he didn't get the job via a lotto ticket? So I'm sure he knows a tackle when he sees one. But I could be wrong!:biggrin:



I've got international refs that have told me different. So do they trump a national panel? We all know people at the top of any "game" who get things wrong.

This point is one of emphasis. Yes, OF COURSE, we have to be happy that a tackle has taken place. And we all know that the word "IMMEDIATELY" is open to interpretation. So we have to be careful but the law is pretty specific and clear "Held and brought to ground in that order. After all Brought to ground and held makes a mockery of the instruction to the tackler to release immediately.

As Ian Cook says there is an overlap. Our interpretation of immediately takes care of that.

I'm interested that people moan about a thread being like flogging a dead horse and their being bored by it. Surely they can just ignore such a thread, leaving it to those not bored by it. No?

Pegleg
24-09-14, 12:09
Or to put it another way. Once I've called tackle then I expect the tackler to release and the ball carrier to comply with his tackle requirements.

Dixie
24-09-14, 13:09
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm pretty sure that since Womble has secured a spot in the National Panel that he's more than likely got there by knowing what he's doing? I can't be sure but I have a hunch he didn't get the job via a lotto ticket? So I'm sure he knows a tackle when he sees one. But I could be wrong!:biggrin:

Probably true - but this is the UK, and as Womble is 102, it is possible that it was simply his turn ... :wink:.

Also, let's not forget the small furry animal's own words:


In my last 3 matches "Sir" has not refereed the "assist tackler" & as a consequence the tackle area has become a mess !

Either "Sir" was Womble, in which case he torpedoes the concept of National Panel Infallibility, or else he was acting as AR to a National Panel ref, thereby torpedoing the concept of National Panel infallibility. So with all due respect to Womble as a senior colleague - he gets treated as equally capable of a mistake as the rest of us, compounded by the fact that he plies his trade toward the comedy & entertainment end of the refereeing spectrum.

Pegleg
24-09-14, 13:09
Well said Dixie. "willy waving" has no place here. Especially when it's not yours!

ChrisR
24-09-14, 14:09
The BC slips and goes to ground and an opponent grasps him as he is on the ground. Is it a tackle?

It doesn't matter squat what happens first as long the two requirements ('held' and 'on the ground') occur simultaneously.

The tackle, and all subsequent events, start at that point.

Browner
24-09-14, 14:09
The BC slips and goes to ground and an opponent grasps him as he is on the ground. Is it a tackle?

As described, no it isn't.
. A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.

14.1 Players on the ground
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:



Get up with the ball
Pass the ball
Release the ball.



. A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground

Sequence = held, then grounded.

Dixie
24-09-14, 14:09
Re: both jacklers.
D&E ?... Permission to keep handling the ball 'once qualified/permitted to do so ' ( by virtue of hands on prior to forming) only seemingly ends when the ruck ends. Or can you find any reference/clarification that says it ends earlier?

And it's a fair point that requires an answer. The law currently says:

(b) Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Clearly, there is nothing specific in those few words that suggests that the exception is time-limited. If we were forensically dissecting parliamentary language, we might focus on the use of "have their hands" as opposed to "had their hands", and ask whether this is the use of the present historic tense or the present tense, and whether it makes any difference. But this is the iRB, and given its history of imprecision in lawmaking, such sophistry is inappropriate.

We need to look at the genesis of the exception, not merely the current wording of it. That genesis came as a revision in the 2010 law book, and while this has not (to my recollection) been the subject of any clarification or recent discussion over ambiguity, my recollection is that this was probably the last in a package of measures designed to rebalance the breakdown away from the side in possession, and towards the "defending" team. Sir Ritchie's magnificent exploits were (as usual) to the fore, as he would get his mitts on the ball, the ref would bottle the "holding on" call, and the ruck would then form - with Sir Ritchie then being penalised for his magnificence (handling in the ruck).

All the discussion in (UK) meetings etc around this point at the time stressed that once the jackler lost contact with the ball, his privileges expired. I can find no contemporaneous commentary to that effect, but am confident it reflects what everyone at the time took to be the position.

Happy to be contradicted. If anyone feels the need to focus tightly on the wording of the law, then I contend that the use of the present tense there rather than the past implies continuity - but this wouldn't be where I would personally focus my attention in an effort to get at the truth.

OB..
24-09-14, 15:09
I keep pointing out that trying to apply forensic techiques to words is inappropriate because natural language is simply not a system of formal logic.

Surely reality dictates that a tackler can hold on briefly after the ball carrier is on the ground so as to make it clear he had not released beforehand. Similarly if the jackler is driven off the ball he has lost his one chance of stealing it.

If we cannot agree in principle on those we have real problems.

Dixie
24-09-14, 15:09
I can find no contemporaneous commentary to that effect, but am confident it reflects what everyone at the time took to be the position.

This from here in May 2011. 1st page only is relevant, and the contention appeared to have been uncontroversial at that time:

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?12335-Can-you-have-2-quot-Jacklers-quot&highlight=jackler

posts 5-8 refer

Browner
24-09-14, 15:09
........ once the jackler lost contact with the ball, his privileges expired.

I like the idea that.... if he's skilful enough to meet the prior 'qualification criteria and is then dislodged off the ball ( momentarily) but through strength/skill survives the clear out and can still steal possession ( whilst remaining on his feet) , then such brilliance should win possession.

Maybe this is just my backrow bias towards 'possession winners' surfacing ... shrug

anyone subscribe to that wish?

Pegleg
24-09-14, 15:09
The BC slips and goes to ground and an opponent grasps him as he is on the ground. Is it a tackle?

It doesn't matter squat what happens first as long the two requirements ('held' and 'on the ground') occur simultaneously.

The tackle, and all subsequent events, start at that point.

I refer you to the definition of a tackle "A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is
brought to ground."

Note in your example no one is held and brought to ground. Youu describe a Law 14 situation and not a tackle. the two requirements are "held and brought to ground" a little different to "held and on the ground". The tackle begins with "held and brought to ground". Very different.

crossref
24-09-14, 15:09
a more precise question is
- red have ball. It's muddy and people who hit the deck slide.

- blue player attempts to make a legal tackle around the legs but falls short, but just manages to knock the ball carrier's left leg into his right leg, bringing him to ground. As the ball carrier hits the ground, the would-be tackler sliding on ground himself, manages to get grip on him.

- Was the ball carrier brought to ground, and held ? Yes
- was the ball carrier held and brought to ground ? No

- was there a tackle ? No

Womble
24-09-14, 16:09
Probably true - but this is the UK, and as Womble is 102, it is possible that it was simply his turn ... :wink:.

Also, let's not forget the small furry animal's own words:



Either "Sir" was Womble, in which case he torpedoes the concept of National Panel Infallibility, or else he was acting as AR to a National Panel ref, thereby torpedoing the concept of National Panel infallibility. So with all due respect to Womble as a senior colleague - he gets treated as equally capable of a mistake as the rest of us, compounded by the fact that he plies his trade toward the comedy & entertainment end of the refereeing spectrum.
Dixie, I retired from refereeing last season! My words were spoken as a DOR watching my 1st XV play ;)

At a guess, I would say that Pegleg keeps score as well ;) ;) ;)

Pegleg
24-09-14, 17:09
I have to not even scoreboards most weeks.

Womble
24-09-14, 17:09
Relax, it's a forum joke xx

Pegleg
24-09-14, 17:09
Ah right sorry.

OB..
24-09-14, 18:09
........ once the jackler lost contact with the ball, his privileges expired.

I like the idea that.... if he's skilful enough to meet the prior 'qualification criteria and is then dislodged off the ball ( momentarily) but through strength/skill survives the clear out and can still steal possession ( whilst remaining on his feet) , then such brilliance should win possession.

Maybe this is just my backrow bias towards 'possession winners' surfacing ... shrug

anyone subscribe to that wish?

NO

Would you really want to be the referee who had to look out for that?

chbg
24-09-14, 20:09
a more precise question is
- red have ball. It's muddy and people who hit the deck slide.

- blue player attempts to make a legal tackle around the legs but falls short, but just manages to knock the ball carrier's left leg into his right leg, bringing him to ground. As the ball carrier hits the ground, the would-be tackler sliding on ground himself, manages to get grip on him.

- Was the ball carrier brought to ground, and held ? Yes
- was the ball carrier held and brought to ground ? No

- was there a tackle ? No

I would put more emphasis on the words "brought to ground". Knocking the BC's left leg into his right is not "bringing the BC to ground", it is legally tripping him. 'Bringing to ground' is maintaining a continuous hold such that the BC cannot keep on his feet and, at a minimum his knees, ideally more of his body land on the ground. Only when the 'bringing to ground' is complete, should the tackler/tackler assist release. Cue discussions as to when the 'bringing to ground' is complete. You need to get to a consistent position when 'you know it when you see it' as there are many, many variations of tackles.

Ian_Cook
24-09-14, 20:09
........ once the jackler lost contact with the ball, his privileges expired.

I like the idea that.... if he's skilful enough to meet the prior 'qualification criteria and is then dislodged off the ball ( momentarily) but through strength/skill survives the clear out and can still steal possession ( whilst remaining on his feet) , then such brilliance should win possession.

Maybe this is just my backrow bias towards 'possession winners' surfacing ... shrug

anyone subscribe to that wish?




NO

Would you really want to be the referee who had to look out for that?


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/RugbyRefs/can-of-worms.jpg

OB..
24-09-14, 21:09
Knocking the BC's left leg into his right is not "bringing the BC to ground", it is legally tripping him. Of course it is bringing him to ground! Although it is known as a "tap tackle", it is not technically a tackle since the player is not held.

menace
24-09-14, 23:09
compounded by the fact that he plies his trade toward the comedy & entertainment end of the refereeing spectrum.

I like that bit Dixie!:biggrin:

But otherwise good to see so many lambast their top end refs.:clap: :sarc::sarc::sarc:

The Fat
25-09-14, 00:09
Well regardless of how he wants to word it, after me spending the last few years discussing refereeing issues on this site, I would just about bet me left nut that in practice, Womble referees the tackle phase correctly.

ChrisR
25-09-14, 13:09
I refer you to the definition of a tackle "A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is
brought to ground."

Note in your example no one is held and brought to ground. Youu describe a Law 14 situation and not a tackle. the two requirements are "held and brought to ground" a little different to "held and on the ground". The tackle begins with "held and brought to ground". Very different.

I recognize the difference. The scenario of a BC going to ground with the ball and then being held by an opponent may start as a Law 14 situation but 14 doesn't cover this situation. If the BC is held on the ground he can't exercise his option of getting up and must make a play with the ball.

Simple enough but how do you manage arriving players? Are they required to approach thru the gate from their side of the ball? If you don't call it a tackle then things can get very messy.

Womble
25-09-14, 18:09
Well regardless of how he wants to word it, after me spending the last few years discussing refereeing issues on this site, I would just about bet me left nut that in practice, Womble referees the tackle phase correctly.

Best on the circuit at the tackle ( coaches words not mine :pepper:) & if I could I would bet my right nut on it ! xx

Steve70
25-09-14, 22:09
Of course it is bringing him to ground! Although it is known as a "tap tackle", it is not technically a tackle since the player is not held.

So blue BC running along gets caught by red player, both go to ground, and as they fall, red player lets go/loses grip. The fall separately. My interpretation would be that he was held, and brought to ground, so shout tackle, and although he's not held now, he still has to release and get up before playing the ball?

That was my next question before I'd realised 3 more pages had been added... (that normal?)

Pegleg
25-09-14, 22:09
I recognize the difference. The scenario of a BC going to ground with the ball and then being held by an opponent may start as a Law 14 situation but 14 doesn't cover this situation. If the BC is held on the ground he can't exercise his option of getting up and must make a play with the ball.

Simple enough but how do you manage arriving players? Are they required to approach thru the gate from their side of the ball? If you don't call it a tackle then things can get very messy.


Sorry I can't understand your view at all. A law 14 scenario is NOT a tackle so you referee it under Law 14 and not Law 15. Things should not get messy if you apply law 14 properly. Arriving players ( for that is what all players except the player who went to ground are) do not have to "let him up" but they are required to play the ball and not the man. In Your scenario if the opponent plays the man and not the ball it is a simple penalty against him.

There is no gate. Why? Because there is no tackle.

Pegleg
25-09-14, 22:09
So blue BC running along gets caught by red player, both go to ground, and as they fall, red player lets go/loses grip. The fall separately. My interpretation would be that he was held, and brought to ground, so shout tackle, and although he's not held now, he still has to release and get up before playing the ball?

That was my next question before I'd realised 3 more pages had been added... (that normal?)

No there was no tackle. The Ball carrier can simply get up with the ball.

Steve70
25-09-14, 22:09
But he was held (not talking about tap tackle now), and brought to ground, but let go on way down - that not a tackle?

Pegleg
25-09-14, 22:09
"Held AND brought to ground" so no it is no tackle for me.

Ian_Cook
26-09-14, 00:09
"Held AND brought to ground" so no it is no tackle for me.

Yep, the tackler has to be holding the ball carrier, and still holding him when the ball carrier goes to ground (i.a.w. 15.3)

The Fat
26-09-14, 01:09
But he was held (not talking about tap tackle now), and brought to ground, but let go on way down - that not a tackle?

Must have hold of him when they hit the deck to be a tackle.

ChrisR
26-09-14, 04:09
Sorry I can't understand your view at all. A law 14 scenario is NOT a tackle so you referee it under Law 14 and not Law 15. Things should not get messy if you apply law 14 properly. Arriving players ( for that is what all players except the player who went to ground are) do not have to "let him up" but they are required to play the ball and not the man. In Your scenario if the opponent plays the man and not the ball it is a simple penalty against him.

There is no gate. Why? Because there is no tackle.

Law reference please concerning bold text. Certainly not covered in Law 14.

Ian_Cook
26-09-14, 08:09
I recognize the difference. The scenario of a BC going to ground with the ball and then being held by an opponent may start as a Law 14 situation but 14 doesn't cover this situation. If the BC is held on the ground he can't exercise his option of getting up and must make a play with the ball.

Yes it does

DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes
to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has
not been tackled.

This is what happens with an ankle tap. The ball carrier has been grounded without a tackle being made. Once that has happened and another player arrives... Bang! Law 14 applies.

Lets be clear about the options available to grounded ball carrier

from 14.1 (a)

(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball (this option expires when another player, on his feet, grabs the ball)
• Pass the ball (this option expires when another player, on his feet, grabs the ball)
• Release the ball. (this option becomes mandatory when another player, on his feet, grabs the ball)


A law 14 situation cannot become a tackle so long as the ball carrier does not get to his feet with the ball, and he cannot do that if an opponent on his feet latches onto the ball.

The arriving player cannot fall down on or near the player in such a way that the ball cannot be released - 14.1 (c)

The arriving player, however, does not have to let the prone player get to his feet. He is within his right to straddle the prone player to go for the ball.



Simple enough but how do you manage arriving players? Are they required to approach thru the gate from their side of the ball? If you don't call it a tackle then things can get very messy.

As pegleg says, its not a tackle, so there is no gate, so players can arrive from any direction.

Pegleg
26-09-14, 09:09
Law reference please concerning bold text. Certainly not covered in Law 14.



Ian Cook covers it in he reply above.

OB..
26-09-14, 10:09
Many years ago I was told by my RDO that in a Law 14 situation you can play the man. The actual situation was that a player fell onthe ball near touch, abd an opponent dragged him into touch (still holdingthe ball). This was deemed to be legal (though he added the comment that it would have been more sensible to go for the ball).

Of course this advice may now be out of date.

crossref
26-09-14, 11:09
Many years ago I was told by my RDO that in a Law 14 situation you can play the man. The actual situation was that a player fell onthe ball near touch, abd an opponent dragged him into touch (still holdingthe ball). This was deemed to be legal (though he added the comment that it would have been more sensible to go for the ball).

Of course this advice may now be out of date.

good one.
I would deem it legal if it happened in my game.

menace
26-09-14, 11:09
Many years ago I was told by my RDO that in a Law 14 situation you can play the man. The actual situation was that a player fell onthe ball near touch, abd an opponent dragged him into touch (still holdingthe ball). This was deemed to be legal (though he added the comment that it would have been more sensible to go for the ball).

Of course this advice may now be out of date.


good one.
I would deem it legal if it happened in my game.

Why crossref? With law reference.

crossref
26-09-14, 12:09
Why crossref? With law reference.

well, I'd put it the other way around, I don't see a Law that would prevent it, and I think it's a customary part of the game.


(Aside - this topic provides a great opportunity to dig this old clip up again ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03gpzFZadcQ

ChrisR
26-09-14, 12:09
Ball carrier goes to ground and arriving opponent grasps him as he is on the ground. Opponent is not preventing BC from making a play with the ball but he is not letting him up.

If this is not a tackle then there is no law that requires opponent to release the BC. And nothing to prevent him from dragging BC into touch.

menace
26-09-14, 12:09
Don't get me wrong as I agree with you crossref! I'm just seeing if you had a law reference to help.

For mine
1) it's not a tackle so rule out law 15 (doesn't have to release)
2) nothing in law 14 prevents it, and
3) law 7.1 says "Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball."

crossref
26-09-14, 12:09
Don't get me wrong as I agree with you crossref! I'm just seeing if you had a law reference to help.

For mine
1) it's not a tackle so rule out law 15 (doesn't have to release)
2) nothing in law 14 prevents it, and
3) law 7.1 says "Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball."

I agree with that, but also sometimes there isn't a Law and you rely on custom. Dragging a player into touch is customary, but if someone started dragging a player around in the middle of the field, just for the fun of it, you'd probably blow your whistle, as it would seem like a probable flashpoint.

ChrisR
26-09-14, 12:09
How do you referee this:

Pick & go BC charges into first defender and goes to ground. Defender doesn't grasp the BC and the BC willingly goes to ground.

BC is not held and BC is "brought" to ground only by gravity. Do you referee it as a tackle?

Phil E
26-09-14, 13:09
How do you referee this:

Pick & go BC charges into first defender and goes to ground. Defender doesn't grasp the BC and the BC willingly goes to ground.

BC is not held and BC is "brought" to ground only by gravity. Do you referee it as a tackle?


No.

It's not a tackle.
He hasn't been held by anyone.
Its a law 14 situation.

The Fat
26-09-14, 13:09
I agree with that, but also sometimes there isn't a Law and you rely on custom. Dragging a player into touch is customary, but if someone started dragging a player around in the middle of the field, just for the fun of it, you'd probably blow your whistle, as it would seem like a probable flashpoint.


Scenario 1:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 releases red 14 (tackled player) but then grabs red 14 again and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 2:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 doesn't release red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 3:
Red 14 (BC) loses his footing and goes to ground just before he nears blue 8 (defender) 1m from touch.

Blue 8 grabs red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

Pegleg
26-09-14, 13:09
Scenario 2 it a penalty for not releasing. That one is simple.

Scenarios 1 & 3 are probably technical penalties in law. BUT at Showbiz level they are play ons.

crossref
26-09-14, 13:09
Scenario 1:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.
Blue 8 releases red 14 (tackled player) but then grabs red 14 again and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

Scenario 2:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.
Blue 8 doesn't release red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

Scenario 3:
Red 14 (BC) loses his footing and goes to ground just before he nears blue 8 (defender) 1m from touch.
Blue 8 grabs red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

1 - PK blue - red not releasing/placing/passing the ball after a tackle. (I am asuming Red is still holding it)
2 - PK Red - its a tackle so blue must release
3 - Play on. - ie in touch blue ball - and play close attention blue likely will grab the ball to look for a QTI, watch to make sure red releases it.

The Fat
26-09-14, 13:09
1 - PK blue - red not releasing/placing/passing the ball after a tackle. (I am asuming Red is still holding it)
2 - PK Red - its a tackle so blue must release
3 - Play on. - ie in touch blue ball - and play close attention blue likely will grab the ball to look for a QTI, watch to make sure red releases it.

Consider the following in relation to your answer to scenario 1.

15.5 The Tackled Player
(e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

ChrisR
26-09-14, 14:09
No.

It's not a tackle.
He hasn't been held by anyone.
Its a law 14 situation.

So defenders (who were onside prior to this event) can come to, and play, the ball from any direction?

crossref
26-09-14, 14:09
here's the whole Law - what's your opinion on Scenario 1 , Fat ?

15.5 The tackled player
(a)
A tackled player must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession of it, and must try to make the ball available immediately so that play can continue.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b)
A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick123

(c)
A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(e)
If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Browner
26-09-14, 14:09
Consider the following in relation to your answer to scenario 1.

15.5 The Tackled Player
(e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So, you're saying that as there was no attempt to " play the ball" , then no PK, am I understanding your thrust?

RobLev
26-09-14, 14:09
Scenario 1:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 releases red 14 (tackled player) but then grabs red 14 again and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 2:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 doesn't release red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 3:
Red 14 (BC) loses his footing and goes to ground just before he nears blue 8 (defender) 1m from touch.

Blue 8 grabs red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

Well, one thing we do know is that in no case can it lead to a lineout/QTI.

RobLev
26-09-14, 14:09
1 - PK blue - red not releasing/placing/passing the ball after a tackle. (I am asuming Red is still holding it)
2 - PK Red - its a tackle so blue must release
3 - Play on. - ie in touch blue ball - and play close attention blue likely will grab the ball to look for a QTI, watch to make sure red releases it.

In scenario 3: surely Red, since he hasn't got up or passed the ball, has released the ball, so no touch; if he still has the ball when he reaches touch, it's PK Blue (Law 14.1(a))?

The Fat
26-09-14, 14:09
So, you're saying that as there was no attempt to " play the ball" , then no PK, am I understanding your thrust?

I'm just throwing things out there for discussion.

Would we allow a player (who stays on his feet) to bring the ball carrier to ground, release for a split second, then grab the tackled player by the jersey and start dragging him along the ground whilst the tackled player is attempting to place/push/pass the ball?

Why do we require the tackler/tackle assist to be the first player to release at a tackle situation?

If a player, who is on his feet in opposition to the tackled player, makes no attempt to play the ball, should he be rewarded?

crossref
26-09-14, 14:09
I'm just throwing things out there for discussion.

Would we allow a player (who stays on his feet) to bring the ball carrier to ground, release for a split second, then grab the tackled player by the jersey and start dragging him along the ground whilst the tackled player is attempting to place/push/pass the ball?

Why do we require the tackler/tackle assist to be the first player to release at a tackle situation?

If a player, who is on his feet in opposition to the tackled player, makes no attempt to play the ball, should he be rewarded?

those are new scenarios - what would you give in the first ones?

menace
26-09-14, 14:09
Scenario 1:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 releases red 14 (tackled player) but then grabs red 14 again and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 2:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 doesn't release red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 3:
Red 14 (BC) loses his footing and goes to ground just before he nears blue 8 (defender) 1m from touch.

Blue 8 grabs red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

1) this could be tricky, obviously we'd be expecting blue to play at the ball (and expect red to release it) but if he started to drag him instead then I may be tempted to PK blue under 15.7
"(b) No player may prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it.
Sanction: Penalty kick"

Dragging the red player around prevents him from doing that?

Blues action wouldn't look right.

2) PK blue for not releasing
3) play on. Not tackled.

The Fat
26-09-14, 14:09
those are new scenarios - what would you give in the first ones?

Not new scenarios, just questions that may need to be asked when considering decisions to the 3 scenarios put forward.

Phil E
26-09-14, 14:09
So defenders (who were onside prior to this event) can come to, and play, the ball from any direction?

Yes, because there is no tackle, so no gate. We are still in open play.

crossref
26-09-14, 14:09
1) this could be tricky, obviously we'd be expecting blue to play at the ball (and expect red to release it) but if he started to drag him instead then I may be tempted to PK blue under 15.7
"(b) No player may prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it.
Sanction: Penalty kick"

Dragging the red player around prevents him from doing that?

Blues action wouldn't look right.

2) PK blue for not releasing
3) play on. Not tackled.

i think your answers between 1 and 3 are inconsistent - either he can drag him 1m into touch or he can't.

The Fat
26-09-14, 14:09
i think your answers between 1 and 3 are inconsistent - either he can drag him 1m into touch or he can't.

How far would you allow one player to drag another? 1m, 2m, 10m?

I can see why menace seems to be at odds with himself between 1 & 3.
In 1, he is treating it as a tackle and therefore applying 15.7 whilst in the 3 there is no tackle so Law 15 wouldn't apply

menace
26-09-14, 14:09
I disagree.

Scenario 1 was a tackle, so law 15 applies
Scenario 3 was not a tackle so neither law 14 or 15 applies.

Ps. I'm not saying I am right with scenario 1, just saying I would be tempted and what law I'd apply.

The Fat
26-09-14, 15:09
Would it make a difference to your decisions for each scenario if the blue player dragged the red player into touch by grasping him by the collar?

Pegleg
26-09-14, 15:09
I tend to agree with menace post tackle you cont prevent the tackled player from exercising his options other than by playing the ball. However, I believe that, certainly at the elite end of the game, it would be play on.

Browner
26-09-14, 16:09
Would it make a difference to your decisions for each scenario if the blue player dragged the red player into touch by grasping him by the collar?

For me matey there are two styles of collar drag ...... Neither particularly impressive, but I'll try and explain how i differentiate my line

In adults...& representative juniors

A) a top of the shoulder/collar drag that takes the player in a straight line drag alligned with his spine-line ( ie the collar does not pull against/choke or squeeze the neck.
I wouldn't penalise but I would tell the perpetrator to be very very carefully.

B) Any collar pull that drags the players neck in a different direction. The kind of collar jerk/yank/bend that could damage the neck.
PK minimum and admonishment, or YC/RC depending on severity.

In juniors below representative
PK as a minimum. For all deterrent reasoning.

My rationale is Neck contact or above , is the Law benchmark, & applies here also.IMO.

OB..
26-09-14, 16:09
Why do we require the tackler/tackle assist to be the first player to release at a tackle situation?It's a convention that make sthe game flow better.

It is sometimes also essential: in a ball-and-all takcle, the BC cannot release until the tackler has done so.

Ian_Cook
26-09-14, 20:09
i think your answers between 1 and 3 are inconsistent - either he can drag him 1m into touch or he can't.

No they aren't

1 is a tackle, so dragging the player is a breach of 15.7 (a) and (b) - PK against Blue

3 is not a tackle, it is Law 14. The player on his feet is NOT obliged to let the player on the ground do anything - play on.


I disagree.

Scenario 1 was a tackle, so law 15 applies
Scenario 3 was not a tackle so neither law 14 or 15 applies.

Ps. I'm not saying I am right with scenario 1, just saying I would be tempted and what law I'd apply.

Actually, Scenario 3 IS a Law 14 situation. Law 14 doesn't just apply when a player goes to ground to gather a loose ball.

LAW 14 DEFINITIONS

...

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has
not been tackled.

This can be because the ball carrier has been ankle tapped and fallen to ground, or has slipped or tripped over his own feet. Anyhow that a Ball Carrier in General Play ends up on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled is a Law 14 situation.


So defenders (who were onside prior to this event) can come to, and play, the ball from any direction?

Yes. The "gate" only exists in the tackle. In Law 14, there is no gate.

The Fat
26-09-14, 22:09
Ian,
How do I get more than one quote from several posts into my reply.
You've done it 3 times in your last post.
Signed,
Techno Failure

Ian_Cook
27-09-14, 00:09
Ian,
How do I get more than one quote from several posts into my reply.
You've done it 3 times in your last post.
Signed,
Techno Failure


Click on the multi-quote icon for every post you want to quote in your post.

Its this one https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/RugbyRefs/mq.png at the bottom right of each post next to the "Reply with Quote" button.

When you have clicked on it, it will look like this https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/RugbyRefs/mqtick.png and it is a toggle, so clicking on it again will remove the tick.

Now click on Reply with Quote on any of the marked posts and it will open a reply box with all the marked quotes, one after the other.

Cut paste and edit as desired

NOTE: Depending on your browser, after you have posted, you may have to go and uncheck them all, as for some reason, on some browsers, it doesn't clear them.

The Fat
27-09-14, 01:09
cheers Ian

menace
27-09-14, 04:09
No they aren't

1 is a tackle, so dragging the player is a breach of 15.7 (a) and (b) - PK against Blue

3 is not a tackle, it is Law 14. The player on his feet is NOT obliged to let the player on the ground do anything - play on.



Actually, Scenario 3 IS a Law 14 situation. Law 14 doesn't just apply when a player goes to ground to gather a loose ball.

LAW 14 DEFINITIONS

...

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has
not been tackled.

This can be because the ball carrier has been ankle tapped and fallen to ground, or has slipped or tripped over his own feet. Anyhow that a Ball Carrier in General Play ends up on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled is a Law 14 situation.



Yes. The "gate" only exists in the tackle. In Law 14, there is no gate.

Quite right Ian re scenario 3 is related to law 14 and not 15. I worded my response wrong (too late at night and not concentrating fully). I knew what I meant, I just didn't say it! My point as you picked up was that the 2 scenarios were very different in law.

The Fat
27-09-14, 06:09
The underlying question for me regarding the scenario of dragging a player, in possession of the ball, across the touch line is this. Are there any other situations in the game where a player can legally play the man on the ground rather than playing the ball?
If a No15 retreats to collect a ball that is kicked towards his own goal line chased by an attacking player, we all agree that if the No15 goes to ground to gather the ball, he must surrender the ball to the attacking player if that player is standing over him with hands on the ball. We all agree that the attacking player can standover/straddle the No15 and doesn't need to "let him up", he just needs to play at the ball.
What would the ref's decision be if the attacking player ignored the ball and grabbed the No15 by the jersey instead and started dragging him across the ground? The No15 may be trying to place the ball (the attacker hasn't played at the ball so No15 doesn't have to simply surrender the ball) but the actions of the attacking player may be stopping No15 from exercising one of his options.

I believe the intent of the laws as written is that the man on his feet, attempting to play the ball, is king.
In all of the scenarios put forward there is nothing stopping the players, who are in opposition to the ball carrier and who are on their feet, from releasing and going for the ball. In fact in all likelihood they will either get possession or win a PK if they do.

The Fat
27-09-14, 09:09
The underlying question for me regarding the scenario of dragging a player, in possession of the ball, across the touch line is this. Are there any other situations in the game where a player can legally play the man on the ground rather than playing the ball?
If a No15 retreats to collect a ball that is kicked towards his own goal line chased by an attacking player, we all agree that if the No15 goes to ground to gather the ball, he must surrender the ball to the attacking player if that player is standing over him with hands on the ball or is attempting to play the ball. We all agree that the attacking player can standover/straddle the No15 and doesn't need to "let him up", he just needs to play at the ball.
What would the ref's decision be if the attacking player ignored the ball and grabbed the No15 by the jersey instead and started dragging him across the ground? The No15 may be trying to place the ball (the attacker hasn't played at the ball so No15 doesn't have to simply surrender the ball) but the actions of the attacking player may be stopping No15 from exercising one of his options.

I believe the intent of the laws as written is that the man on his feet, attempting to play the ball, is king.
In all of the scenarios put forward there is nothing stopping the players, who are in opposition to the ball carrier and who are on their feet, from releasing and going for the ball. In fact in all likelihood they will either get possession or win a PK if they do.

Missed the editing window of opportunity so thought I should fix that for me, Doh!!!

Browner
27-09-14, 09:09
The underlying question for me regarding the scenario of dragging a player, in possession of the ball, across the touch line is this. Are there any other situations in the game where a player can legally play the man on the ground rather than playing the ball?
If a No15 retreats to collect a ball that is kicked towards his own goal line chased by an attacking player, we all agree that if the No15 goes to ground to gather the ball, he must surrender the ball to the attacking player if that player is standing over him with hands on the ball. We all agree that the attacking player can standover/straddle the No15 and doesn't need to "let him up", he just needs to play at the ball.
What would the ref's decision be if the attacking player ignored the ball and grabbed the No15 by the jersey instead and started dragging him across the ground? The No15 may be trying to place the ball (the attacker hasn't played at the ball so No15 doesn't have to simply surrender the ball) but the actions of the attacking player may be stopping No15 from exercising one of his options.

I believe the intent of the laws as written is that the man on his feet, attempting to play the ball, is king.
In all of the scenarios put forward there is nothing stopping the players, who are in opposition to the ball carrier and who are on their feet, from releasing and going for the ball. In fact in all likelihood they will either get possession or win a PK if they do.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective TF

Whilst attempting to grab the ball from the BC on the ground is the norm, its not conditional.

In fact, the player on his feet can ( providing he doesnt commit the offences of 14.2) actively prevent the groundee from exercising ANY of his requirements (options)


Get up with the ball ........... Mr on Feet may straddle /push down or prevent
Pass the ball .......... MoF doesn't have to let the Groundee achieve this
Release the ball........MoF doesnt have to let the Groundee achieve this

In essense the player on the ground is always at a major disadvantage , he gets only one significant protection ( from being jumped on - safety!) Other than that ALL other advantages are with Mr on Feet.(which supports the "played on feet ethos")

I'd say the reason we don't see a player dragged by his shirt in the middle of the pitch ISNT because of any illegal thinking, its more likely because it does not actually provide much of a gain ( no possession gained etc and the dragger becomes an easy clear out target) whereas the KEY difference near the touchline is the turnover of possession that ' in- touch' brings.

The Fat
27-09-14, 09:09
In fact, the player on his feet can ( providing he doesnt commit the offences of 14.2) actively prevent the groundee from exercising ANY of his requirements (options)


Get up with the ball ........... Mr on Feet may straddle /push down or prevent

Hmmmm....
Interested to hear others thoughts on that one.:chin:

Browner
27-09-14, 11:09
Hmmmm....
Interested to hear others thoughts on that one.:chin:

As I said, being on the ground is a huge possession disadvantage, other than foul play the other TWO outlawed actions of a 'player on his feet' are listed in 14.2.

7.1 gives the permission
. Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball. and in that context IMO it includes 'Pull' albeit its not separately stated.

The Fat
27-09-14, 12:09
7.1 gives the permission
. Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball. and in that context IMO it includes 'Pull' albeit its not separately stated.

Not convinced that extrapolating 7.1 to include dragging a player adds any weight to the debate about Law 14.

Law 7.1 also includes

Any player may throw it or kick it.
But doesn't say you can't throw it forward
Any player may fall on the ball.
But we know that part of Law 16 prohibits that

OB may be able to confirm if the following was a rugby myth.
Back in about 2006, when my son started reffing, one of his assessors told him that if a player had gone to ground with the ball, if an opposition player placed a hand on him he was considered tackled. That may have been misinformation based on mixing up RL tackle rules with RU laws. I don't have any law books prior to 2009 so cannot check.

The Fat
08-10-14, 12:10
Not exactly an in depth answer but still an answer I suppose from Stuart Berry from SA Refs.

Question:
Law 14 question. In situations where a player either goes to ground to gain possession or is a ball carrier who ends up on the ground when there has not been a tackle, the laws are reasonably clear as to the actions required by both the player with the ball and opposition players who are on their feet and are attempting to play the ball. However, the laws say virtually nothing about players, in opposition to the player in possession, grasping the ball carrier and dragging him into touch. The laws are written in a way that assumes such players are attempting to play the ball but we sometimes see the defender ignore the ball and simply attempt to grasp the player on the ground and drag him into touch. Do you have guidelines, other than the formal Laws of The Game, suggesting how such situations should be refereed? Cheers, Ross

Stuart Berry:
Hi Ross – once a player has gone to ground, a defender cannot ‘drag’ that player around the field, whether it be into touch or simply to change his body position. This is a PK offence.

ChrisR
08-10-14, 12:10
"Hi Ross – once a player has gone to ground, a defender cannot ‘drag’ that player around the field, whether it be into touch or simply to change his body position. This is a PK offence."

It would be nice if there was a law reference to go along with that.

This whole debate would evaporate if grasping a player on the ground with the ball constituted a tackle. That would tidy up the whole picture.

Browner
08-10-14, 12:10
Not exactly an in depth answer but still an answer I suppose from Stuart Berry from SA Refs.

Question:
Law 14 question. In situations where a player either goes to ground to gain possession or is a ball carrier who ends up on the ground when there has not been a tackle, the laws are reasonably clear as to the actions required by both the player with the ball and opposition players who are on their feet and are attempting to play the ball. However, the laws say virtually nothing about players, in opposition to the player in possession, grasping the ball carrier and dragging him into touch. The laws are written in a way that assumes such players are attempting to play the ball but we sometimes see the defender ignore the ball and simply attempt to grasp the player on the ground and drag him into touch. Do you have guidelines, other than the formal Laws of The Game, suggesting how such situations should be refereed? Cheers, Ross

Stuart Berry:
Hi Ross – once a player has gone to ground, a defender cannot ‘drag’ that player around the field, whether it be into touch or simply to change his body position. This is a PK offence.


Dismissed, sounds like he's making up his own Laws !

crossref
08-10-14, 13:10
Hi Ross – once a player has gone to ground, a defender cannot ‘drag’ that player around the field, whether it be into touch or simplyto change his body position. This is a PK offence

when I picture it, a player on ground, holding the ball, being dragged into touch. I still feel more inclined to PK the player on the ground for holding on, than the player doing the dragging.

Dragging into touch only works if the player on the ground hangs on to the ball