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Taffy
27-09-14, 21:09
When we issue a yellow card for a team offence (in my last match when this happened, we went as follows:

Red Team

Breakdown offence
Breakdown Offence
Breakdown Offence
Breakdown Offence

in first 11 minutes

Team warning to skipper at 4th offence
yellow card to next offender (11 minutes 40 seconds)

What happens then to the "clock", do we start again, or do we issue yellow to next offender as well.

The breakdown and tackle area is where it is all about for me at my level. Get it right more or less and you have a good game, get it wrong and it is a mess...........


Any thoughts please?
:wales:

Nigib
27-09-14, 22:09
Hi Taff, here are some fairly random thoughts:

Generally I would be stricter, especially at that frequency of the offence. So after the second, warn the skipper loudly from where you've given the penalty, waving two fingers (!) at him, so everyone sees. Third one, ping and YC.

It should start at the briefing, remind the captain that (s)he is in charge of discipline for his team, and if (s)he manages the players, you can keep the cards in the pocket. First time, talk as you give the pen - tell them to stay on their feet, or whatever it was they did wrong. Talk as you jog over to the lineout from the pen kick (for example). If you let them know, and keep telling, you will get less trouble. I would also try to tell them what's happening and what you want - so, "tackler release" (colour and number if you can see it), "roll away", "ruck, no hands", "first man with ball, fine" (but you'll be lucky to get that at the level you're reffing :-) ) and so on.

But don't let them get away with it.

Your other question - next offence restart the clock, but with it that soon after I would stop proceedings and warn the skipper that there needs to be a change of behaviour (or somesuch). I would instruct him again on what you are looking for, point out you had a deal with him at the briefing that he would look after his players discipline, and you expect him and them to comply. Send him off to talk to his players (give him 30 s to do this). You might even give a second yc after just two more offences. After that, I'd be warning the skipper that since his team aren't complying, you'll be looking to bin him and try a different captain for 10 mins.

You don't talk about the sort of breakdown offences - there's been a lot of discussion recently on this area. Have in your mind what you expect to see - tackler release first, do something active to get out of the way, tackled player do something with the ball, everyone else stay on their feet... and make sure the teams are told and then reminded what you are after.

Browner
27-09-14, 23:09
What happens then to the "clock", do we start again, or do we issue yellow to next offender as well.


Any thoughts please?
:wales:
10.3( b) says no clock restart.
.
Repeated infringements by the team. When different players of the same team repeatedly commit the same offence, the referee must decide whether or not this amounts to repeated infringement. If it does, the referee gives a general warning to the team and if they then repeat the offence, the referee cautions and temporarily suspends the guilty player(s). If a player of that same team then repeats the offence the referee sends off the guilty player(s).

The Fat
28-09-14, 00:09
You might even give a second yc after just two more offences. After that, I'd be warning the skipper that since his team aren't complying, you'll be looking to bin him and try a different captain for 10 mins.


So what offence has the captain committed?

Browner quotes the relevant law. I raised that at the start of the season at a presentation on empathy by our state union. The response I got was;
2 offences = informal chat with captain
3rd offence = formal team warning to captain
next offence = YC for the culprit
another quick offence = another YC for culprit (even though the law says RC with reasoning being based on level of match).

You had 4 breakdown PKs in first 11 minutes. Should have been a YC handed out by then.
If team makes it to say 20-25 minutes before next offence, remind captain that "It's been good since the YC, let's keep the discipline. Understood?"
If there are no infringements following the YC till half time, I would start with a clean slate in the 2nd half but would be having the formal chat again following the 2nd quick infringement of the 2nd half.

10.3 (c)

Repeated infringements: standard applied by referee. When the referee decides how many offences constitute repeated infringement, the referee must always apply a strict standard in representative and senior matches. When a player offends three times the referee must caution that player.


The referee may relax this standard in junior or minor matches, where infringements may be the result of poor knowledge of the Laws or lack of skill.

OB..
28-09-14, 12:09
After that, I'd be warning the skipper that since his team aren't complying, you'll be looking to bin him and try a different captain for 10 mins.You cannot bin a player who has not committed an offence.

beckett50
28-09-14, 13:09
Taffy, as Nigib put it so well, you need to put down a marker with preventative measures.

On the third offence I would "time off" and call the captain over and have a word about what his players are not doing that is causing the penalties - giving him time to pass this message on to his players. It is also, in my book, good practice to also have the oppo captain listen in to the 'lecture' as no doubt it could equally apply to his players as well, just that his team have yet to be put under pressure!

At the next penalty you are then perfectly in your rights to issue a YC and then another.

During a game earlier in the year in SoCal I had an issue at the tackle where the tackler wasn't rolling away. Spoke to the skipper after the third offence and then a player went to the bin. 2 tackles later another of his players was in the bin. From there on in it was plain sailing. Talking to him (and the coach) after the game they both understood the escalation just that they weren't used to the local referees being that strict with cards and just using PKs all the time.

YCs are not your fault. They are a management tool to use when the players are not responding to your requirements and stopping the oppo playing the game on the front foot. However, at no point should you get into the realms of sidestepping an appointed captain (unless of course he happens to be sent to the bin for an offence!).

Lee Lifeson-Peart
28-09-14, 17:09
I YC'd a player yesterday who had committed his first PK offence. Unfortunately his mates had given away a hatfull previously. It was also 1 minute into the second half - I think they think HT resets my tolerimeter.

Probably should've had cards out earlier but in my first proper game back after 11 months I think I took a bit of adjusting.

andyscott
29-09-14, 07:09
If you are not getting compliance card early.

Take the gimmies if you get one (breakdown red zone).

Card at the 3rd if you need to (despite the level they will respond, I did a level 11 game and carded on the 3rd offence, I had 5 further penalties in the game ;) )

After your card.
Next similar penalty (I group mine) Captain, another warning, you have one in the bin already.
If they dont respond put another one in.

My rules - Its not my job to keep 15 on the pitch. Thats up to them. If they dont listen, they can watch and learn from the sideline for 10. Card and Card early.