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AMGS
06-10-14, 09:10
I was watching a referee on Saturday who awarded a FK for an early shove at a scrum. When the prop showed dissent, he changed the FK to a penalty, awarded at the original mark. This looked wrong to me I would have expected to see another FK 10m further upfield. On checking the Law Book, however, I find that the references to an extra 10m (for both penalty and FK) refer only to offences such as failing to retire 10m or interfering with the kick and do not refer to dissent at all. The only reference to dissent I can find is in the foul play law, 10(s), which says that failing to respect the authority of the referee is a penalty offence (with no reference to an extra 10m).
So on what basis do we march them 10m for chat and was the referee right on Saturday?

irishref
06-10-14, 09:10
The upgrade in sanction already took place - from FK to PK. A further offence would warrant the 10m in my humble one.

crossref
06-10-14, 09:10
I was watching a referee on Saturday who awarded a FK for an early shove at a scrum. When the prop showed dissent, he changed the FK to a penalty, awarded at the original mark. This looked wrong to me – I would have expected to see another FK 10m further upfield. On checking the Law Book, however, I find that the references to an extra 10m (for both penalty and FK) refer only to offences such as failing to retire 10m or interfering with the kick and do not refer to dissent at all. The only reference to dissent I can find is in the foul play law, 10(s), which says that failing to respect the authority of the referee is a penalty offence (with no reference to an extra 10m).
So on what basis do we march them 10m for chat – and was the referee right on Saturday?

For dissent at a FK, I think the ref can safely rely on Law 10 to say the dissent is a brand new new offence, and a PK one to book.

You raise an interesting point that for dissent at a PK, the Law doesn't seem to allow the 10m advance that is commonly used. Interesting. I guess it's convention rather than Law.

Perhaps you could argue that the mark for the dissent is not where the dissenter was standing, as normal, but where he was supposed to be standing - ie 10m back from the mark. The fact that he handn't retreated when he dissented can't buy him extra territory.
But that argument would mean that dissent at a FK would be a PK + 10m further on


The formal escalation of a PK would be a YC. The 10m is useful in that it provides something that hurts, without having to get a card out.

OB..
06-10-14, 13:10
For dissent at a FK, I think the ref can safely rely on Law 10 to say the dissent is a brand new new offence, and a PK one to book.

You raise an interesting point that for dissent at a PK, the Law doesn't seem to allow the 10m advance that is commonly used. Interesting. I guess it's convention rather than Law.

Perhaps you could argue that the mark for the dissent is not where the dissenter was standing, as normal, but where he was supposed to be standing - ie 10m back from the mark. The fact that he handn't retreated when he dissented can't buy him extra territory.
But that argument would mean that dissent at a FK would be a PK + 10m further on


The formal escalation of a PK would be a YC. The 10m is useful in that it provides something that hurts, without having to get a card out.
21.7 Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick.
21.8 Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second free kick, awarded 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick.In both cases the law says "Any infingement", which could mean any infringement of the preceding prargraphs, or any infringement at all.

The traditional approach is that any further PK offence at a PK means 10m and another PK. Any FK offence at a FK means 10m and another FK. However a PK offence at a FK is a new offence giving a PK at the relevant spot.

That makes sense to me.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
06-10-14, 13:10
Too much dissent gets me to send the player sideways 35m!

AMGS
06-10-14, 18:10
21.7 Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick.
21.8 Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second free kick, awarded 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick.In both cases the law says "Any infingement", which could mean any infringement of the preceding prargraphs, or any infringement at all.

The traditional approach is that any further PK offence at a PK means 10m and another PK. Any FK offence at a FK means 10m and another FK. However a PK offence at a FK is a new offence giving a PK at the relevant spot.

That makes sense to me.

It does make sense, but I think the natural reading of "any infringement" where it is written in the book is to mean any infringement of the preceding paragraphs. Its a while since I went back to the book to look for the detail, and it always seems to raise more questions than it answers!

OB..
06-10-14, 22:10
It does make sense, but I think the natural reading of "any infringement" where it is written in the book is to mean any infringement of the preceding paragraphs. Its a while since I went back to the book to look for the detail, and it always seems to raise more questions than it answers!If there is a sensible reading, why look for analternative?

Fatboy_Ginge
16-10-14, 13:10
As far as I see it he was spot on. FK awarded... Prop gobs off. PK for dissent and, in my case a warning about chat. If for some reason they decide to chance their arm then 10m.

Simon Thomas
16-10-14, 14:10
I am happy with the management escalation used.

andyscott
17-10-14, 07:10
I am happy with the management escalation used.

I agree, you can use either the escalation or the march 10.

With any management choice, it has to be effective.