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irishref
14-10-14, 19:10
http://www.therugbysite.com/blog/breakdown/a-closer-look-at-the-rucking-rules

From 2 weekends ago. Yellow card for BJ Botha. Ref obviously deemed the actions of Red #5 to be part of the ruck forming. But our collective thoughts on it?

Treadmore
14-10-14, 21:10
I thought ref got it wrong - play on or penalty against blue for falling on POC (a tackler)

Browner
15-10-14, 11:10
Botha was the tackler....I think the expression used is "beaten by the ruck" , ruck was formed ( albeit a typical elite collapsing/clear out shambles) meaning its now too late for the tackler rights to still exist.
At that level they all know that.

I don't know what warnings the referee had issued prior to this...etc.

crossref
15-10-14, 12:10
I think the question is : should the referee be calling out what the phase is ... or leaving it to the players.

It's become quite customary to call RUCK (to the extent that the players expect it). If a ref calls RUCK then everyone is clear.

If a referee is silent can the players assume there is no ruck? Obviously that ref didn't thnk so.

I have noticed a new policy - - premiership refs this season seem to be making a call almost every breakdown
- calling RUCK when it's a ruck
- TACKLE-ONLY when it's not a ruck.

Perhaps that's a protocol we'll all be advised to follow in due course.

RUCK - to means it's a ruck
TACKLE-ONLY - to mean it's not a ruck
[silence] - to indicate that the referee failed his YOYO test and is too far from the breakdown :)

Simon Thomas
15-10-14, 12:10
From what I can see it is a question of timing - Botha was too late to use tackler rights as the ruck had formed.

We actively discourage refs at L5-10 from calling every tackle, ruck etc. It becomes white noise and reduces the impact effect of vocal management when it is needed. We are referees not coaches, so only make a call when it is ended, using colour, number and action - and make it proactively, not after the event wherever possible.

I had not noticed the Elite guys calling each one and am surprised as that is not the protocol I have, but maybe Spreaders has taken me off the secret email list ?

irishref
15-10-14, 14:10
Botha was the tackler....I think the expression used is "beaten by the ruck" , ruck was formed ( albeit a typical elite collapsing/clear out shambles) meaning its now too late for the tackler rights to still exist.
At that level they all know that.

I don't know what warnings the referee had issued prior to this...etc.

Munster were on a caution for repeated team infringements...

Treadmore
15-10-14, 20:10
From what I can see it is a question of timing - Botha was too late to use tackler rights as the ruck had formed.


Please, what ruck? I can't see one!

L'irlandais
16-10-14, 17:10
Please, what ruck? I can't see one!Spot on!

By definition :

A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.

Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.Both PJ Botha and Paul O Connell were tacklers.
P'O C was on the floor after the tackle. No Red player contesting for the ball in a push 'n shove = no ruck.
Blue 1 and 11 were pillars to the "non-ruck" a third Blue player went to ground making little or no attempt to keep his feet. (penalty for Red?) The fourth Blue shirt is a jappy 9, (so not much use to man nor beast,) in this case ; ie. a non-ruck where the opposition have already come away with the ball.

No ruck, tackler/tackle assist, yellow carded for picking up the ball in open play.

To be honest, I think the referee had decided to make a point at the next Munster offence, just Ian Davies didn't have the patience to wait until they actually commited an offence (which I accept, they surely would have given sufficient time.)

crossref
16-10-14, 17:10
To be honest, I think the referee had decided to make a point at the next Munster offence, just Ian Davies didn't have the patience to wait until they actually commited an offence (which I accept, they surely would have given sufficient time.)

I guess we've all been there!

L'irlandais
16-10-14, 18:10
In fairness to the ref, Professional players are at fault here ; they go to ground for no better reason than to seal the ball off. Others will stand as pillars, with no opposition players contesting the ball. They and their coaches have created the "non-ruck", so perhaps they might acknowledge that fact, before slagging-off the referee's attempt's (on prime-time TV) to take split second décisions, about these situations, that don't even exist in the lawbook.
"“BJ’s thing is a point of law. If there’s no ruck formed, which there wasn’t, ...Whose fault is that Mister Foley? not the referee's, surely? Try asking your pros to respect the laws of the game.

If players are not encouraged to stay on their feet, & contest the ball, then the Lawbook as it stands is of little use.
Rugby is a contest, Pro players are ruining the game, by working around a loosely written lawbook.
Either rewrite it gentlemen, or Feck off and play soccer!

Pillars at a non-ruck are offside & must retire 5m/10m, for example.

L'irlandais
16-10-14, 18:10
Munster were on a caution for repeated team infringements...Short highlights of the game (http://youtu.be/hxXvQUzczbs?list=PLclPnIJd8nRuuYQ6yT2VNbKTq01OBUeq 0) can be seen here. It was a good game of rugby.

A week later Munster v Scarlets (http://youtu.be/tKuHDMePREM?list=PLclPnIJd8nRvPvCSqSjYnu5D_uUQmhbc z) not a squeak from Mr. Foley about the ref. While both Scarlets Captain & coach slated the Italian referee for not using his cards correctly. Who is right, who is wrong?