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andyscott
17-10-14, 07:10
Well, this is the match report, I cant see the argument of why it shouldnt have been???? Sounds nailed on to me.

'With XXXX on the attack, a spilled ball created an opportunistic counter strike down the visitors left flank. XXXX chased down the XX runner and with just metres to go reached out and grabbed the back of his shirt at the collar, pulling him down and with the support of XXX, stopping his momentum inches short.'

'Any joy from the XXXX faithful was very short lived as the referee deemed it necessary, in light of the collar grab, to both award a Penalty Try and to issue a yellow card.'

Simon Thomas
17-10-14, 07:10
Back of shirt at collar and inches short sounds PT and YC to me.

Pegleg
17-10-14, 08:10
Good call. I can't see any argument being made in the report mind.

andyscott
17-10-14, 09:10
The player and coach were going ballistic after the game :)

crossref
17-10-14, 10:10
were you the ref?

menace
17-10-14, 10:10
The player and coach were going ballistic after the game :)

I trust it was at the player for being such a dick and collar slinging and leaving no choice for the referee to PTand leaving his team mates one short for 10 mins? :sarc:

Wouldn't it be nice, just once, to reef the collar from behind of the whining coach so hard that it drops him like a ton of sh!te, and then you say 'Hurts, doesn't it? That's why!' And then walk off. :buttkick:

Daftmedic
17-10-14, 10:10
Call them a "HAT"

Phil E
17-10-14, 11:10
If it's as described then a nailed on PT and YC for me.

Simon Thomas
17-10-14, 11:10
The player and coach were going ballistic after the game :)

Andy - adult match ? What level ?

TheBFG
17-10-14, 12:10
now that I would YC and PT for!

andyscott
17-10-14, 12:10
Andy - adult match ? What level ?

Yes L5.

- - - Updated - - -


were you the ref?

Sure was.

RobLev
17-10-14, 14:10
Good call. I can't see any argument being made in the report mind.

It's the "...deemed it necessary..." that gives the game away.

ctrainor
17-10-14, 14:10
Get lots of Collar grabs up here in RL land. Amazing how many coaches dont't know the laws never mind the players and crowd

Simon Thomas
17-10-14, 15:10
Yes L5.

Sure was.

CC from me

Lee Lifeson-Peart
17-10-14, 16:10
I did the same at a L9 game about 3 years ago - about 5 mins from time.

Coach and player were probably annoyed but never voiced their disapproval which is probably why I never mentioned it on here at the time.

Coach has moved clubs - now at a L8 club - and he still speaks to me :biggrin: although he is not a volatile sort. His club are currently near the top of Y2 and doing well.

Coach pragmatism sometimes rubs off on the players. Coach dickheadedness certainly does IME.

Blackberry
17-10-14, 16:10
Too often players learn something is wrong at the point of a loud whistle.... Societies would save themselves a lot of trouble if they addressed these mis-conceptions in advance on their web sites.

You could have a page, call it "Things Your Coach Never Seems to Tell You" (OK, that's a joke), but make it a shared experience where we talk about the most common mis-conceptions we encounter. For example, just by saying "If you scrag someone from behind, we usually have to give at least a yellow card".

Now I'm off on this topic, there are about six main areas where we find most of our problems, and these are six area where players don't want to give away penalties, its just lack of shared understanding.

Here's one example of my dream. You hear wise players saying "Learn to play the ref", and it breaks my heart, they don't have to learn new laws for each game they play, so why can't ref's offer similar consistency in much of what they do. The example I would use is when is the ball out. I say, "not one hand on, not two hands on, but when he picks it up. If its actually come clean out already, then that's game on too." And that works. What if as a society we all agreed to do that? What if, as a society, we published that? We would be giving decent players a better chance to compete on the edge without giving away penalties, and avoiding conflict when we have to give the penalties... the players would have been warned.

Consistency of patter is another area we could make giant strides in. For example offside at rucks and mauls, if the Blue team looks like getting offside I always tell the teams I will use the words "Backfoot blues" at which point they can look along the line and see if its them. Its quick, it goes straight to the issue, and it helps players understand what is required.

Before the "surely...", "obviously..." and logic leap brigade jump on this, chew it over and see how far it would work, and suggest how we could progress it.

crossref
17-10-14, 17:10
Too often players learn something is wrong at the point of a loud whistle.... Societies would save themselves a lot of trouble if they addressed these mis-conceptions in advance on their web sites.

You could have a page, call it "Things Your Coach Never Seems to Tell You" (OK, that's a joke), but make it a shared experience where we talk about the most common mis-conceptions we encounter. For example, just by saying "If you scrag someone from behind, we usually have to give at least a yellow card".

Now I'm off on this topic, there are about six main areas where we find most of our problems, and these are six area where players don't want to give away penalties, its just lack of shared understanding.

Here's one example of my dream. You hear wise players saying "Learn to play the ref", and it breaks my heart, they don't have to learn new laws for each game they play, so why can't ref's offer similar consistency in much of what they do. The example I would use is when is the ball out. I say, "not one hand on, not two hands on, but when he picks it up. If its actually come clean out already, then that's game on too." And that works. What if as a society we all agreed to do that? What if, as a society, we published that? We would be giving decent players a better chance to compete on the edge without giving away penalties, and avoiding conflict when we have to give the penalties... the players would have been warned.

Consistency of patter is another area we could make giant strides in. For example offside at rucks and mauls, if the Blue team looks like getting offside I always tell the teams I will use the words "Backfoot blues" at which point they can look along the line and see if its them. Its quick, it goes straight to the issue, and it helps players understand what is required.

Before the "surely...", "obviously..." and logic leap brigade jump on this, chew it over and see how far it would work, and suggest how we could progress it.

I completely agree. But sadly in England we don't have a culture of publishing clear, written guidelines. We have a culture of secret emails and cascades by word of mouth. Hence the inconsistency.

I really like the USA approach of Game Guidelines that cover all those sorts of things. Refs can read them and be consistent, clubs can read them and know what to expect (and hold refs accountable if they differ).

I'd love to see some written guidelines on
- when is it out?
- how straight is 'straight' (scrums and lineouts)
- in a tip-tackle, when considering whether it's a RC, a YC or just a PK, does it make any difference if he lands on his head/shoulder/breaks fall with hands
- if they don't contest the line out, does it matter if it's not straight?
- do you have to let him up?
- is it ever OK to use a hand in the ruck ?

Don' tget me wrong, I have my views on what is the correct answer to all these, but I also know that other referees thinkg differently and all these are things where I think as refs we could be more consistent, and lack of written guidelines is a problem.

Mat 04
18-10-14, 03:10
We're obviously made of different stuff this side of the border, I have never seen nor heard of this being penalised.

Swinging people by their collar, certainly, but not being dragged down.

menace
18-10-14, 04:10
Wow. Really? Obviously in your parts you don't think being grabbed at the collar is initially high contact on the neck and when it's reefed back to stop the player in his tracks and half choking the player that it isn't dangerous?

The Fat
18-10-14, 05:10
Wow. Really? Obviously in your parts you don't think being grabbed at the collar is initially high contact on the neck and when it's reefed back to stop the player in his tracks and half choking the player that it isn't dangerous?

I can assure those who think differently, that when running towards the oppo's goal line and having someone grab you by the back of the collar pulling you back and down IS dangerous. I have a flattened disc in my lower back from having it done to me back in '81 (can remember the date as it was my 21st birthday). Manageable but ongoing periodic inconvenience since.

RobLev
18-10-14, 15:10
We're obviously made of different stuff this side of the border, I have never seen nor heard of this being penalised.

Swinging people by their collar, certainly, but not being dragged down.

Even the NFL banned the practice, after a series of major injuries caused by its use:


The horse-collar tackle rose to infamy during the 2004 NFL season, in which it was implicated in six major injuries, four of which were caused by Williams, including two in one game. The injuries that season included broken legs for Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver Terrell Owens, Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb, Baltimore Ravens running back Musa Smith, and Tennessee Titans wide out Tyrone Calico.

...

The horse-collar is particularly dangerous due to the awkward position of the player being tackled, who will often fall backward in a twisting motion with one or both legs trapped under the weight of his body. This is exacerbated if the player's foot gets caught in the turf and by the additional weight of the defender. Potential injuries include sprains or tears to ligaments in the knees and ankles (including the ACL and MCL), and fractures of the tibia and fibula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse-collar_tackle

Blackberry
18-10-14, 18:10
Seriously though, Taff has raised a point; Is the collar tackle universally regarded as foul play, and if so should we not remind the players? We could solve the problem in an instant simply by telling everyone its foul play.

RobLev
18-10-14, 18:10
Seriously though, Taff has raised a point; Is the collar tackle universally regarded as foul play, and if so should we not remind the players? We could solve the problem in an instant simply by telling everyone its foul play.

This was discussed here about 5 years ago:

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?8165-Has-the-law-on-grabbing-a-player-by-the-collar-changed

Consensus appears to have been it's foul play.

(Taff raised it then; its Mat04 that's out of step this time...).

beckett50
18-10-14, 18:10
Nailed on decision to me.

Hopefully when the coach sees a replay of the game on the video - that was no doubt made - he will reflect on his rant.

chbg
18-10-14, 21:10
Is he divine?