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crossref
19-10-14, 07:10
Black 9 picked up the ball and went on a ineffectual run, encountering blue 10

Blue 10, instead of tackling attempts to rip the ball from him and gets an arm round the ball, they wrestle for second or so, (no teammates so it's not a maul) and the two of them over balance and both fall to the floor, still fighting for the ball. On the ground neither of them release the ball.

Is this a tackle?
If it's not a tackle what happens

(I decided it was a tackle and so PK blue 10 for not releasing)

Ian_Cook
19-10-14, 07:10
Black 9 had possession of the ball first, and AFAIK the Law makes no provision for opposing players to both be in possession, so the fact that Blue 10 got his hands around the ball while they were still both on their feet is irrelevant unless Black 9 gives up the ball to Blue 10 before the go to ground

Therefore, IMO, it is a tackle, and Blue 10 is the tackler so he must let go. I agree with your call to ping him.

Simon Thomas
19-10-14, 09:10
Sounds like a tackle to me

ddjamo
19-10-14, 11:10
what happened next? did a contest ensue over the top of them? was the contest won over the top? was there support anywhere near? in the OP there was the fact that neither released...what did they need to release for? was attacking support there first looking to play the ball?

I don't think uniformly applying law/tackle sequence applies every time in this situation. I would look to see which side's arriving player is ready to play the ball first and both players on the deck would need to release and let the ball be played by a player on their feet. pinging straight on for (at that point) a non material offense is just that. what happened next is more important imo than choosing which guy to ping....they can both hug the ball until someone upright wants it...then if they don't give it up...ping time.

that's a much easier call to sell, "red was ready to play the ball and blue did not release."

crossref
19-10-14, 11:10
What happened next was that
other players arrived from both sides, intent on getting the ball ,
both players on the ground held on to the ball for grim death. Clearly the ball wasn't coming out so I blew my whistle and paused for half a second thinking about what the right decision was...

Ian_Cook
19-10-14, 12:10
what happened next? did a contest ensue over the top of them? was the contest won over the top? was there support anywhere near? in the OP there was the fact that neither released...what did they need to release for? was attacking support there first looking to play the ball?

I don't think uniformly applying law/tackle sequence applies every time in this situation. I would look to see which side's arriving player is ready to play the ball first and both players on the deck would need to release and let the ball be played by a player on their feet. pinging straight on for (at that point) a non material offense is just that. what happened next is more important imo than choosing which guy to ping....they can both hug the ball until someone upright wants it...then if they don't give it up...ping time.

that's a much easier call to sell, "red was ready to play the ball and blue did not release."

And if both players won't release? IMO, it has to be a PK against the tackler every time, regardless of who arrived first. The tackled player has been denied the opportunity to place or pass the ball, by the tackler.

15.7 FORBIDDEN PRACTICES
(a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

OB..
19-10-14, 17:10
And if both players won't release? IMO, it has to be a PK against the tackler every time, regardless of who arrived first. The tackled player has been denied the opportunity to place or pass the ball, by the tackler.

15.7 FORBIDDEN PRACTICES
(a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kickThat bit of law would prevent a jackler from taking the ball, so it surely cannot be taken literally. 15.6 (b) specifically allows "other players" to gain possession.

Pegleg
19-10-14, 19:10
Was Black 9 "Held and brought to ground"?

Two players wrestling over a ball both go to ground.

Do those statements constitute a "tackle" in law?

crossref
19-10-14, 19:10
Was Black 9 "Held and brought to ground"?

Two players wrestling over a ball both go to ground.

Do those statements constitute a "tackle" in law?

Well, that is the point of my question.
I decided it was a tackle. There was a ball carrier and he was brought to ground. I think that when there is a ball carrier the distinction between holding the ball, and holding him is a distinction without a difference

Once I had decided that it was a tackle the decision was easy.

If it wasn't a tackle (and I concede this is open to discussion, then the decision is a lot trickier. What was it?

Ian_Cook
19-10-14, 19:10
Was Black 9 "Held and brought to ground"?

Two players wrestling over a ball both go to ground.

Do those statements constitute a "tackle" in law?

What else could it be? Law 14? I can't see how, and in any case, it if was...

LAW 14 DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes
to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has
not been tackled.

LAW 14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick



They both have the ball.... which one are you going to PK?

No. This is a tackle alright. The Ball Carrier (Black 9) is holding the ball and the opponent (Blue 10) grasps the ball (therefore, by inference is holding the player who doesn't give it up) and brings them both to ground. Black 9 is the tackled player , Blue 10 is the tackler, and he must release the tackled player so that the latter has the opportunity to push, pass or place. Its the simplest solution. and IMO, the correct one.

I have seen this situation in an All Blacks v Wallabies test. I can't remember who the Wallaby was, but he was the ball carrier. Tony Woodcock grabbed the ball and dragged him to ground. Woodcock, lying on the ground next to the Wallaby, ripped the ball out. He was PK and YC for not releasing.

Pegleg
19-10-14, 19:10
If you were to feel it not a tackle then a quick whistle and scrum to the side going forward etc.

Blackberry
19-10-14, 21:10
That bit of law would prevent a jackler from taking the ball, so it surely cannot be taken literally. 15.6 (b) specifically allows "other players" to gain possession.

You're ok to take it literally, the jackler has to release the tackled player and not stop him placing / passing the ball as the tackled player goes to ground. If you think a jackler is not a tackle assister but simply an arriving player then the standard not releasing penalty against the tackled player will be a likely outcome. Just remember that a tackle assist has to release and a very swiftly arriving player could also fall foul of stopping the tackled player playing the ball.

Pegleg
19-10-14, 23:10
... a very swiftly arriving player could also fall foul of stopping the tackled player playing the ball.

Not for me. If a player has arrived post tackle and is on he feet "immediately" has now gone.

FightOrFlight
20-10-14, 00:10
To me it's a totally correct decision in the OP.

The 10 has got a firm grip on the ball and has wrapped on to it and the 9 has brought it in and to ground. It is a grey area but as the 9 has possession and it is "his ball" until law forces him to release it wrapping on to the ball and trying to rip but failing could be seen as wrapping the arms and bringing the player to ground. Like I said...grey area but if it is "his ball" and law provides no clear guideline a referee could judge that wrapping the ball is wrapping the player and so normal tackle laws apply.
Pulling the jersey and bringing a player to ground is judged in most cases a full tackle despite the lack of "wrapping the arms". The tackler is levering the player to ground much the same was trying to rip the ball does.

Browner
20-10-14, 00:10
Black 9 picked up the ball and went on a ineffectual run, encountering blue 10

Blue 10, instead of tackling attempts to rip the ball from him and gets an arm round the ball, they wrestle for second or so, (no teammates so it's not a maul) and the two of them over balance and both fall to the floor, still fighting for the ball. On the ground neither of them release the ball.

Is this a tackle?
If it's not a tackle what happens

(I decided it was a tackle and so PK blue 10 for not releasing)

When black goes to ground you have to consider that blue took him there even if they fell over.

Even if black dropped his knee first then it makes no discernable difference - blue is still deemed to have made a tackle and is required to release the original BC once they've landed,

so its a tackle for me every day & twice on Saturdays .

Blackberry
20-10-14, 05:10
Not for me. If a player has arrived post tackle and is on he feet "immediately" has now gone.
Try this scenario: I am tackled, as my knee hits the floor i begin to try and place the ball but in that same fraction of a second another player grabs hold of me and the ball stopping me from playing the ball.

Pegleg
20-10-14, 07:10
I refer to my previous answer. Man on his feet is king.

OB..
20-10-14, 12:10
You're ok to take it literally, the jackler has to release the tackled player and not stop him placing / passing the ball as the tackled player goes to ground. If you think a jackler is not a tackle assister but simply an arriving player then the standard not releasing penalty against the tackled player will be a likely outcome. Just remember that a tackle assist has to release and a very swiftly arriving player could also fall foul of stopping the tackled player playing the ball.
15.5 (e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
15.7 (a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.
Do you think those two are compatible? I don't.

Obviously players attempting to play the ball must be legal, but according to 15.5 (e) they can play the ball which will prevent the tackled player from passing it.

Blackberry
20-10-14, 18:10
I refer to my previous answer. Man on his feet is king.

...and I refer to the laws :)

Blackberry
20-10-14, 18:10
While I might gently chide Pegleg for refusing to let facts colour his judgement, the relative "kingdoms" do depend on timing and the proximity of supporting players which I think is where he's coming from. It might help if he sees the apparently conflicting laws as having a sequence or priority.

I still though think Pegleg would find it a hard sell to ping me as a tackled player as I was falling down. Its quite likely that Pegleg is rightly convinced he is right, but he is talking about the situation an instant later.

Pegleg
20-10-14, 19:10
If an arriving player gets there, AFTER the tackle is made (Knee of the floor is tackle made) then your "immediately" is up. If he is grabbing the ball before the tackle is made then he must release, an go back in. Of course all this depend upon clear and obvious.

I'm not talking about an instant later. YOU referred to your knee hitting the floor and that is tackle made. Judgement call. But there it is.

Its quite likely that Blackberry is convinced he is right, but I disagree.

Blackberry
20-10-14, 19:10
If an arriving player gets there, AFTER the tackle is made (Knee of the floor is tackle made) then your "immediately" is up. If he is grabbing the ball before the tackle is made then he must release, an go back in. Of course all this depend upon clear and obvious.

I'm not talking about an instant later. YOU referred to your knee hitting the floor and that is tackle made. Judgement call. But there it is.

Its quite likely that Blackberry is convinced he is right, but I disagree.

Yes Pegleg, if he gets there "after" the tackle then the "immediatley" is over. What we are looking at is the player who is there at the tackle and grabs the player as he goes down. Again, I reckon the apparently conflicting laws make sense if you accept a sequence. Where the discussion comes in is in the timing, and that timing itself is not a fixed sum, it depends on the degree of isolation of the tackled player.

Pegleg
20-10-14, 20:10
That's not what you posted. To remind you:

"Try this scenario: I am tackled, as my knee hits the floor i begin to try and place the ball but in that same fraction of a second another player grabs hold of me and the ball stopping me from playing the ball."

Your knee hits the floor = TACKLE So it's "immediately" over. If you mean: "BEFORE my knee hits the floor" the scenario fits your claim. As a ref we judge what we see. For me your knee has hit the floor man on his feet has all the rights.

Blackberry
20-10-14, 20:10
Pegleg, "in that fraction of a second"...... the player is already there, you keep referring to an arriving player. Try and get that picture in your head and it will make more senses.

I'll put it another way;think of the two laws you see as conflicting as having a sequence. Oops, I might have said that already. I think perhaps you are thinking about a different scenario to me.

OB..
20-10-14, 22:10
Pegleg, "in that fraction of a second"...... the player is already there, you keep referring to an arriving player. Try and get that picture in your head and it will make more senses.

I'll put it another way;think of the two laws you see as conflicting as having a sequence. Oops, I might have said that already. I think perhaps you are thinking about a different scenario to me.My resolution of the problem is that nobody can grab the tackled player's arm to stop him passing, but a legal opponent can grab the ball. That avoids any timing problems (other than those determining if the opponent is legal).

Ian_Cook
21-10-14, 00:10
If an arriving player gets there, AFTER the tackle is made (Knee of the floor is tackle made) then your "immediately" is up. If he is grabbing the ball before the tackle is made then he must release, an go back in. Of course all this depend upon clear and obvious.

I'm not talking about an instant later. YOU referred to your knee hitting the floor and that is tackle made. Judgement call. But there it is.

Its quite likely that Blackberry is convinced he is right, but I disagree.

IMO, the tackler's "immediate" has a shorter life span than that of the tackled player.

Law 15 says

The tackler must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackle assist must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackled player must release the ball immediately by placing passing pushing or releasing

It does not say what order this must happen, convention seems to be that the tackler's and Tackle Assist's "immediately" expires first. If the quickly arriving player is trying to take the ball from the tackled player, while the tackler is still holding on to the tackled player, I'm pinging the tackler for not releasing!


This can raise another problem however.; if we expect tackler to release the instant the tackled player's knee touches the ground, then we need to start being vigilant on tackled players getting back to their feet again. Perhaps the emphasis need to change from assuming the ball carrier hasn't been tackled to assuming that he has, and penalising accordingly. Its not much to change and its easy to sell.

Player: "But ref, I wasn't held"
Referee: "That's because the tackler released you as he is supposed to"

RobLev
21-10-14, 07:10
IMO, the tackler's "immediate" has a shorter life span than that of the tackled player.

Law 15 says

The tackler must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackle assist must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackled player must release the ball immediately by placing passing pushing or releasing

It does not say what order this must happen, convention seems to be that the tackler's and Tackle Assist's "immediately" expires first. If the quickly arriving player is trying to take the ball from the tackled player, while the tackler is still holding on to the tackled player, I'm pinging the tackler for not releasing!
...

Law 15 also provides express sanctions on tacklers/assists if they prevent the tackled player passing or releasing the ball immediately; which for me make the "convention" the only possible interpretation of the Law; and the IRB "Five key areas of refereeeing" of June 2012 draws the same conclusion (yes, I know, we've recently gone round this).

Pegleg
21-10-14, 07:10
Pegleg, "in that fraction of a second"...... the player is already there, you keep referring to an arriving player. Try and get that picture in your head and it will make more senses.

I'll put it another way;think of the two laws you see as conflicting as having a sequence. Oops, I might have said that already. I think perhaps you are thinking about a different scenario to me.

He's an "arriving" player if not involved in the tackle. so when he goes in for the ball he is the king. He can't hold the ball in to the player looking for the cheap PK. But he has arrived AFTER the tackle and is the man on his feet.

Try and get that picture in your head and it will make more sense.

Pegleg
21-10-14, 07:10
Law 15 also provides express sanctions on tacklers/assists if they prevent the tackled player passing or releasing the ball immediately; which for me make the "convention" the only possible interpretation of the Law; and the IRB "Five key areas of refereeing" of June 2012 draws the same conclusion (yes, I know, we've recently gone round this).

I'm not talking about a player preventing release. I'm talking about an arriving player ripping the ball, the subject of the thread! If the arriving player merely hold the player and the ball in (looking for the PK that is a totally different issue.

Pegleg
21-10-14, 07:10
IMO, the tackler's "immediate" has a shorter life span than that of the tackled player.

Law 15 says

The tackler must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackle assist must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackled player must release the ball immediately by placing passing pushing or releasing

It does not say what order this must happen, convention seems to be that the tackler's and Tackle Assist's "immediately" expires first. If the quickly arriving player is trying to take the ball from the tackled player, while the tackler is still holding on to the tackled player, I'm pinging the tackler for not releasing!


This can raise another problem however.; if we expect tackler to release the instant the tackled player's knee touches the ground, then we need to start being vigilant on tackled players getting back to their feet again. Perhaps the emphasis need to change from assuming the ball carrier hasn't been tackled to assuming that he has, and penalising accordingly. Its not much to change and its easy to sell.

Player: "But ref, I wasn't held"
Referee: "That's because the tackler released you as he is supposed to"

I'm referring to an "arriving player" not a "tackler" or "tackle assist". Hence the comment (which you quoted):


If an arriving player gets there, AFTER the tackle is made...

Ian_Cook
21-10-14, 09:10
I'm referring to an "arriving player" not a "tackler" or "tackle assist". Hence the comment (which you quoted):


Yes, I know you are talking about the arriving player but you have missed my point.

I don't give a fat rats arse how quick the arriving player arrives; if the tackler is still holding onto the tackled player while the arrived player is trying to take the ball, two offences are being committed, one by each team.

Tackler not releasing tacked player
Tackled player not releasing ball

Convention is that you either play on and see what develops or you PK the tackler. Most referees I know will let the situation breathe for a moment by calling release.

Even if the arriving player is there and gets his hands in the ball 1 millisecond after the ball carrier becomes a tackled player, if the tackle is still holding on, and continues to hold on he will be PK before the tackled player is..

Pegleg
21-10-14, 10:10
But that is not the Scenario that I replied to. We are talking about the "arriving player". Of course convention decrees we take the Tackler first. If he is offending then we have our penalty. But, as said I was not replying to that scenario.

ddjamo
21-10-14, 11:10
Yes, I know you are talking about the arriving player but you have missed my point.

I don't give a fat rats arse how quick the arriving player arrives; if the tackler is still holding onto the tackled player while the arrived player is trying to take the ball, two offences are being committed, one by each team.

Tackler not releasing tacked player
Tackled player not releasing ball

Convention is that you either play on and see what develops or you PK the tackler. Most referees I know will let the situation breathe for a moment by calling release.

Even if the arriving player is there and gets his hands in the ball 1 millisecond after the ball carrier becomes a tackled player, if the tackle is still holding on, and continues to hold on he will be PK before the tackled player is..

where I was going with it....thank you Ian...agree. let it breathe and see if they release as required by command and working out the situation.

Phil E
21-10-14, 12:10
I am with ddjamo.....let it breathe and you might not have to blow your whistle. That is always the best outcome.

ddjamo
21-10-14, 12:10
I am with ddjamo.....let it breathe and you might not have to blow your whistle. That is always the best outcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNCrMEOqHpc

my typical received response...ha! thanks phil.

ChrisR
21-10-14, 14:10
From OB:

15.5 (e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
15.7 (a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.

Do you think those two are compatible? I don't.

I don't think they are incompatible but 15.7 needs expanding to end with: "by grasping the tackled player".

The distinction needs to be made between playing the ball and playing the player. With that in mind the laws make sense.

OB..
21-10-14, 16:10
From OB:

15.5 (e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
15.7 (a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.

Do you think those two are compatible? I don't.

I don't think they are incompatible but 15.7 needs expanding to end with: "by grasping the tackled player".

The distinction needs to be made between playing the ball and playing the player. With that in mind the laws make sense.

Isn't that what I proposed?

My resolution of the problem is that nobody can grab the tackled player's arm to stop him passing, but a legal opponent can grab the ball. That avoids any timing problems (other than those determining if the opponent is legal).

Unfortunately it is not what the law currently says or implies. If a Statute comes up with such a problem, lawyers and judges try to find an interpretation that makes both parts effective (until Parliament/IRB rewrites it).

Pegleg
22-10-14, 08:10
I am with ddjamo.....let it breathe and you might not have to blow your whistle. That is always the best outcome.

Totally agree. However, you need to be prepared to act if letting it breathe does not bring clarification.

Phil E
22-10-14, 09:10
Totally agree. However, you need to be prepared to act if letting it breathe does not bring clarification.

Really?........I was just going to let them fight it out amongst themselves! :sarc:

Pegleg
22-10-14, 10:10
Indeed. The point being, however, that the discussion is valid so that, as refs, we are prepared to act if it does not "work itself out".

- - - Updated - - -




The distinction needs to be made between playing the ball and playing the player. With that in mind the laws make sense.

Spot on.