PDA

View Full Version : Red Card for verbal abuse - SA Ref video



talbazar
22-10-14, 01:10
Hi All,

Saw the below video on our Society FB page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4brwLeD1I

I'm a bit surprised here and I think I'm missing a few things.
I'd love your understanding of what actually happened...

Here are the points I'd particularly like clarification about:
1. What did the player actually say, literally?
All I can hear is the AR saying "he call you a P" :chin:

2. Did the player insult the referee or did he express an opinion?
"This ref is sh*t!" opposed to "You're absolutely sh*t sir!

I'm not sure I'd support that RC decision... depending on the answers to the questions above...

Can anyone help clarify the points I'm missing?
Feel free to comment too...

Cheers,
Pierre.

menace
22-10-14, 02:10
Too hard to make out what was or wasn't said so can't comment on RC or not. Guess you'd need to read the report to know what "P" is..as AR didn't want to say it on the 'family show'

BUT I'm more worried about this tube thingy! After the clip played this is what comes up on my screen

3050

:wow:
What have you been watching Talbazar??

talbazar
22-10-14, 02:10
What have you been watching Talbazar??

You're missing something here Menace... Youtube remembers what YOU have been watching a proposes you something you may like...
So I return you the question:
What have you been watching? :nono:

talbazar
22-10-14, 04:10
To add, it looks like the disciplinary committee cleared Barnes from the Red Card record...
But the SA refs website doesn't explain anything on what exactly happened...

http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2830693/

Drift
22-10-14, 04:10
Too hard to make out what was or wasn't said so can't comment on RC or not. Guess you'd need to read the report to know what "P" is..as AR didn't want to say it on the 'family show'

BUT I'm more worried about this tube thingy! After the clip played this is what comes up on my screen

3050

:wow:
What have you been watching Talbazar??

The P word is 'poes', translated roughly to c*nt.

menace
22-10-14, 04:10
You're missing something here Menace... Youtube remembers what YOU have been watching a proposes you something you may like...
So I return you the question:
What have you been watching? :nono:

Yikes! It's all those links Dickie E has been posting!

Pegleg
22-10-14, 08:10
I think the AR and ref got the right call from the evidence, It would be interesting to see the reasoning behind the removal of the card.

Daftmedic
22-10-14, 08:10
It served its purpose by removing him from the game. Showed everybody watching that it's not exceptable. On the removal there may not have been concrete evidence.

- - - Updated - - -

It served its purpose by removing him from the game. Showed everybody watching that it's not exceptable. On the removal there may not have been concrete evidence.

rugbyslave
22-10-14, 08:10
I believe he used the referee's nick name plus the part of the swear word, now no recording of the incident, and the players now have legal representation at theses hearings.

talbazar
22-10-14, 15:10
From my understanding, I honestly have a problem for any card on this incident...

The player got carded for "verbal abuse" towards the referee... But the referee didn't hear a thing, it had to be reported by the AR.
Where's the abuse then?

We are all referees, it's unfortunate, but it comes with the job to be called named in our back...

Furthermore, it would have to be really really bad for me card someone I'd overhear saying something in my back. I'd definitely have a chat with the player but I might not even ping him...
Example:
Ref: "Peeeeeep! 7 Black, hands in a ruck"
Black 7 walking away: "What a _______!" (replace by what you want)
Ref: "7 Black!, If you have something to say, say it to my face so I can put my hand in my pocket. If not, keep your opinion for yourself. Clear?"

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

FlipFlop
22-10-14, 15:10
Sorry Pierre - Strongly Disagree with you on all points.

Verbal abuse was directed at the referee by a player. The AR reported this. This is foul play, and should be treated as such. Otherwise it is the thin edge of teh wedge. Same if a player verbally abuses the AR/4th in the hearing of the referee. Match Officials are NOT to be verbally (or physically) abused.

And in your example: If the referee hears it, then there is no giving the player a chance to retract. It needs to be acted on. Our jobs are hard enough, with enough critics, without letting the players chime in when they want to.

Ronald
22-10-14, 15:10
As a referee in South Africa, we have also been trying to get clarification as to why the red card was rescinded at the hearing, but no luck so far. Drift is correct, the word apparently uttered was "poes", very derogatory way of calling somebody a "c*nt".

Pegleg
22-10-14, 15:10
Can't agree Pierre.

If the ref does not hear the abuse but other players / supporters/ officials etc do the image of the referee is undermined.

Other players can "join in" or even "defend" the ref. Result chaos.

Officials too can become embroiled in the issue.

Supporters may be age grade players who see no action and decide that it's OK for them to do it next time out.

A bit like a punch / lick / strike that does not land, the intent is there and, if picked up by an AR, it should be dealt with. Verbal abuse that does not land is no different.

For me your warning, though I understand your intentions, is misguided. The guy next week has to put up with what you tolerate. Accept it and the rot begins.

Taff
22-10-14, 17:10
... Drift is correct, the word apparently uttered was "poes", very derogatory way of calling somebody a "c*nt".
Is there a polite way of calling somebody a c*nt?

OB..
22-10-14, 19:10
talbazar - I disagree. The ARs and referee are a team of three. If you insult one you insult the team. We could do without that attitude because it winds people up instead of calming them down.

Daftmedic
22-10-14, 19:10
Can't agree Pierre.

If the ref does not hear the abuse but other players / supporters/ officials etc do the image of the referee is undermined.

Other players can "join in" or even "defend" the ref. Result chaos.

Officials too can become embroiled in the issue.

Supporters may be age grade players who see no action and decide that it's OK for them to do it next time out.

A bit like a punch / lick / strike that does not land, the intent is there and, if picked up by an AR, it should be dealt with. Verbal abuse that does not land is no different.

For me your warning, though I understand your intentions, is misguided. The guy next week has to put up with what you tolerate. Accept it and the rot begins.

I beleive sir, that you a hitherto know as a ****!
Was that a nice way?

4eyesbetter
22-10-14, 21:10
From my understanding, I honestly have a problem for any card on this incident...

The player got carded for "verbal abuse" towards the referee... But the referee didn't hear a thing, it had to be reported by the AR.
Where's the abuse then?

Furthermore, it would have to be really really bad for me card someone I'd overhear saying something in my back. I'd definitely have a chat with the player but I might not even ping him...
Example:
Ref: "Peeeeeep! 7 Black, hands in a ruck"
Black 7 walking away: "What a _______!" (replace by what you want)
Ref: "7 Black!, If you have something to say, say it to my face so I can put my hand in my pocket. If not, keep your opinion for yourself. Clear?"

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

This sounds like a soccer tolerance level to me. This is not a rugby tolerance level.



We are all referees, it's unfortunate, but it comes with the job to be called named in our back...


You should not have to put up with that. And, even if you don't mind, the referee next week should not have to put up with it either. Stand up for them, at least.

Pegleg
22-10-14, 23:10
Can't agree Pierre.

If the ref does not hear the abuse but other players / supporters/ officials etc do the image of the referee is undermined.

Other players can "join in" or even "defend" the ref. Result chaos.

Officials too can become embroiled in the issue.

Supporters may be age grade players who see no action and decide that it's OK for them to do it next time out.

A bit like a punch / Kick / strike that does not land, the intent is there and, if picked up by an AR, it should be dealt with. Verbal abuse that does not land is no different.

For me your warning, though I understand your intentions, is misguided. The guy next week has to put up with what you tolerate. Accept it and the rot begins.




I beleive sir, that you a hitherto know as a ****!
Was that a nice way?

Sorry Don't get it.

talbazar
23-10-14, 06:10
talbazar - I disagree. The ARs and referee are a team of three. If you insult one you insult the team. We could do without that attitude because it winds people up instead of calming them down.
OB.. totally agree with the team of 3 aspect. And I would card (Y or R) a player who abuse verbally an AR directly. Without hesitation.


This sounds like a soccer tolerance level to me. This is not a rugby tolerance level.
Come on, a player saying in your back that your decision was rubbish is far away from a soccer player calling you a cheat with his face about half an inch from yours... No comparison there, sorry!


You should not have to put up with that. And, even if you don't mind, the referee next week should not have to put up with it either. Stand up for them, at least.
I agree again that we shouldn't have to put up with that. But again, the player in that case didn't say anything to the ref directly. The Ref didn't even hear it...
As far as we know, the player might have talking to himself, about himself...

So, yes, I agree, I definitely need to review my tolerance level on certain things as I'm probably capable of taking a bit too much...
But I'm very curious on how you guys would deal with the following then. You see something, you blow and you hear the player saying whatever is in the quote. The player's indeed agitated but is not shouting, rather talking loudly to himself.

1. Red 7 knock on, you blow:
Red 7: "What a c*nt!"

2. Red 7 hands in a ruck, you blow:
Red 7: "What a c*nt!"

3. Red 6 hands in a ruck, you blow:
Red 6: "Ka Ni Na!" (1)

4. Red 8 hand in a ruck, you blow:
Red 8: "Kana again lor. Can't tahan oredy!" (1)

(1): Welcome to Singapore!

Daftmedic
23-10-14, 07:10
Sorry Don't get it.
One belowe your comment. I was on my iPhone and it got messed up

Phil E
23-10-14, 09:10
Talbazar

in the examples you give of a player saying something behind my back, I always tell them that I will assume any such comments are directed at me and deal with them accordingly. If they don't like that, then don't say it.

Browner
23-10-14, 11:10
Talbazar

in the examples you give of a player saying something behind my back, I always tell them that I will assume any such comments are directed at me and deal with them accordingly. If they don't like that, then don't say it.

Me too, otherwise the bog standard 'get out of jail free' card is played ......

"I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to my teammate"

TEOTWedge .........Zero Tolerence.

If i hear someone swearing at me behind my back, ( and i don't know who it said it) then I'll Select any ' culprit' from the general area... if his teammates dont identify the offender then they are agreeing for him to take the rap !

IME if you deal with such matters very firmly on the 1st occasion then the players suppress/refrain, but if you don't they wont..... AND you make it harder for every referee every week.

Sorry Pierre, can't ever agree with you on this one.

FlipFlop
23-10-14, 11:10
in the examples you give of a player saying something behind my back, I always tell them that I will assume any such comments are directed at me and deal with them accordingly. If they don't like that, then don't say it.

And interestingly - Wayne Barnes had the same approached (backed up by the disciplinary committee) when he red carded Dylan Hartley......

crossref
23-10-14, 11:10
If i hear someone swearing at me behind my back, ( and i don't know who it said it) then I'll Select any ' culprit' from the general area... if his teammates dont identify the offender then they are agreeing for him to take the rap !
.

for a card? Would you really card a random person? YC only - -- or even a RC?

a RC is quite tricky if you really have no idea if you got the right person.

Browner
23-10-14, 12:10
for a card? Would you really card a random person? YC only - -- or even a RC?

a RC is quite tricky if you really have no idea if you got the right person.

The alternative is less palatable...
if the 'captain' doesnt have the backbone to seek to identify the real culprit, then tough. The club can go to a disciplinary meeting, explain why the 'abuse' toward the official was mistakenly pinned on the wrong offender.

Escaping sanction merely because my back is turned?...nah.... call it a 'team offence' .... if you prefer

Shelflife
23-10-14, 12:10
While I agree with the sentiment, You just cant red card a random player, it would never stand up at a disp meeting and you would be made a fool of, I wouldnt even chance a YC unless you can identify a player.

The team could/would easily say at the disp meeting that they werent sure who made the comment.

Browner
23-10-14, 14:10
While I agree with the sentiment, You just cant red card a random player, it would never stand up at a disp meeting and you would be made a fool of, I wouldnt even chance a YC unless you can identify a player.

The team could/would easily say at the disp meeting that they werent sure who made the comment.

I suspect that the 'local' disciplinary hearing blazers would look disfavourably toward any club who admitted that ' one' of their players swore at an official, but I'd named the wrong chap. Granted the matter isnt watertight, but if the disciplinary guys genuinely support us volunteers then they'll empathise with/excuse me sending the wrong 'face' to them on the rare occasion that a captain 'refuses to seek out and identify' the swearer.

If the disciplinary guys chastised me for the report, then they are signalling the ceasation of my volunteering stint with that Club. This volunteer possesses the ability to vote with his feet if he's left unsupported.

PS... "There is another option capt... You refuse to identify the player and I leave the match, I will report why I've departed the enclosure and name you as the uncooperating capt" . Maybe the end of the match will refocus his mind?

The pay rate has to be 'vast' for me to get sworn at and choose to continue the match as if it hadnt happened !

Browner
23-10-14, 15:10
I've now considered the benchmark, give me 3000 a match and the players can definitely swear at me as much as they wish .... Until then ...
:knuppel2:

Rushforth
23-10-14, 15:10
I've now considered the benchmark, give me 3000 a match and the players can definitely swear at me as much as they wish .... Until then ...

A man asks a woman if she'll sleep with him for 30. She slaps him, and says "What do you think I am, a hooker?" He then offers her 3000 to sleep with him, and she hesitates for a long time before nodding. "So we've established that you are a hooker; now we're just negotiating a price," he says.

Browner
23-10-14, 16:10
A man asks a woman if she'll sleep with him for 30. She slaps him, and says "What do you think I am, a hooker?" He then offers her 3000 to sleep with him, and she hesitates for a long time before nodding. "So we've established that you are a hooker; now we're just negotiating a price," he says.

An old and often cloned/misquoted witty zzzzzzz. :)

Few people operate without prostituting themselves in some way Rushy me ol buggerlugs.

Most people sell their services in some way 'muscle/brain/skill, or a combination of others , fundamentally the difference between a Hooker and most other professions is merely the 'social acceptability' (or otherwise) of the screwing service being performed !

Acceptability barometers are personal, you should note I rarely issue RC's, players seem able to adjust their settings well before they are needed. When it comes tolerence "A stitch in time saves 9" .....

RobLev
23-10-14, 19:10
While I agree with the sentiment, You just cant red card a random player, it would never stand up at a disp meeting and you would be made a fool of, I wouldnt even chance a YC unless you can identify a player.

The team could/would easily say at the disp meeting that they werent sure who made the comment.

If they weren't sure who made the comment, then how do they know it wasn't the guy B carded?

Once they decide who they can exclude, for whatever reason, we ask each of those they haven't excluded whether it was them; when they all deny it, who could it possibly have been other than the original recipient of the card?

Browner
23-10-14, 19:10
If they weren't sure who made the comment, then how do they know it wasn't the guy B carded?

Once they decide who they can exclude, for whatever reason, we ask each of those they haven't excluded whether it was them; when they all deny it, who could it possibly have been other than the original recipient of the card?

Contrived team silence = culprit by elimination. In such a circumstance ' taking one for the team' seems apt.

Pegleg
23-10-14, 21:10
Sorry, but I can't belief this twaddle was written by a fellow referee. I appologise for any offence but I am truly amazed. The player did not say a decision was rubbish, he was totally offensive.



OB.. totally agree with the team of 3 aspect. And I would card (Y or R) a player who abuse verbally an AR directly. Without hesitation.


Come on, a player saying in your back that your decision was rubbish is far away from a soccer player calling you a cheat with his face about half an inch from yours... No comparison there, sorry!


I agree again that we shouldn't have to put up with that. But again, the player in that case didn't say anything to the ref directly. The Ref didn't even hear it...
As far as we know, the player might have talking to himself, about himself...

So, yes, I agree, I definitely need to review my tolerance level on certain things as I'm probably capable of taking a bit too much...
But I'm very curious on how you guys would deal with the following then. You see something, you blow and you hear the player saying whatever is in the quote. The player's indeed agitated but is not shouting, rather talking loudly to himself.

1. Red 7 knock on, you blow:
Red 7: "What a c*nt!"

2. Red 7 hands in a ruck, you blow:
Red 7: "What a c*nt!"

3. Red 6 hands in a ruck, you blow:
Red 6: "Ka Ni Na!" (1)

4. Red 8 hand in a ruck, you blow:
Red 8: "Kana again lor. Can't tahan oredy!" (1)

(1): Welcome to Singapore!

I m reminded of the referee who when dealing with a player who swore at him and wh othen used the "defence" that he was "swearing at himself", replied well no one speaks to you like that on my pitch".

Regarding your suggestion that the translation of the word might be debatable. Fair point. Sadly, here there is no question about the word used.

Pegleg
23-10-14, 21:10
PS... "There is another option capt... You refuse to identify the player and I leave the match, I will report why I've departed the enclosure and name you as the uncooperating capt" . Maybe the end of the match will refocus his mind?


Abandon (or threaten to) fair enough. But I can't agree with sending off a random player.

OB..
24-10-14, 00:10
If you can't identify the player, you can presumably still report the club for bringing the game into disrepute. The evidence is that they took no steps to deal with the miscreant. Might be a safer approach.

talbazar
24-10-14, 05:10
Sorry, but I can't belief this twaddle was written by a fellow referee. I appologise for any offence but I am truly amazed. The player did not say a decision was rubbish, he was totally offensive.
My point in the original post is that no-one knows (but maybe the AR) what the player said.
As for the soccer comparison... Seriously?


I m reminded of the referee who when dealing with a player who swore at him and wh othen used the "defence" that he was "swearing at himself", replied well no one speaks to you like that on my pitch".

Regarding your suggestion that the translation of the word might be debatable. Fair point. Sadly, here there is no question about the word used.
Well, that's my second point. If one of our English fellow ref were to have an exchange program in Wales and a player would swear in Welsh, no one would know what he actually says.
So then, what? If you overhear a swear word in your back it's a card? But if you overhear a word you don't know it's not? But if the tone seems a bit harsh it a card anyway? How do you ensure consistency in your game? And uniformity across your different referees with different language skills?

In my last last example, the player is only saying he's got caught again and he can't take it anymore... In a sense he's paying the ref a compliment... Definitely a RC offense according to certain posts above.

I admit, my tolerance is probably too high and I need to correct that. For the referee next weekend.
I agree and I will work on it.

But in all honesty, I still think this is far from being a "black & white" situation. The words used, the tone, the situation, the direction, the look on the player's face... Everything should be taken into consideration...

Anyways, thanks a lot for your insights!
Pierre.

FlipFlop
24-10-14, 08:10
I ref in a country with 4 official languages, and an unofficial one.

You know when a player is swearing at you in any language, as 99% of the time the tone and body language gives it away - verbal dissent is not all about the words, it is much more about the tone and body language in my book. And yes I have, and do, penalise (including cards) despite not knowing what was said. It is possible a player could calm down and then dissent in a polite manner, but that is the 1% that is unlikely.

And yes - players might get away with a reduced sanction due to lack of understanding, or an increased one. But the aggression in the tone and body language say enough.

It still surprises me how many of the players will dissent in the language of the referee (even if they barely speak that).

Rushforth
24-10-14, 12:10
verbal dissent is not all about the words, it is much more about the tone and body language in my book.

I'm reminded of one of my earliest matches when I got between SH and FH at a ruck.

"F*** outta there, please, sir" quoth the American SH.

No malice to the tone, no body language, and everyone laughed when he apologized at the next available opportunity (scrum most likely).

Ronald
24-10-14, 12:10
I ref in a country with 4 official languages, and an unofficial one.

.

I can trump that...ref in a country with 11 official languages!:biggrin:

Pegleg
24-10-14, 13:10
My point in the original post is that no-one knows (but maybe the AR) what the player said.
As for the soccer comparison... Seriously?


That the AR HEARD the language invalidates your comment. The Reference to soccer is important. Had soccer dealt with the nonsense in their game things might be less "in the face", don't you think?



Well, that's my second point. If one of our English fellow ref were to have an exchange program in Wales and a player would swear in Welsh, no one would know what he actually says.
So then, what? If you overhear a swear word in your back it's a card? But if you overhear a word you don't know it's not? But if the tone seems a bit harsh it a card anyway? How do you ensure consistency in your game? And uniformity across your different referees with different language skills?

It's the nature of the game that players get away with things that we do not see or hear. That it happens, does not justify ignoring it when an official does pick it up. Other have covered the other "tells" such as body language. I'll leave that to them.

So, I miss a "blind side" stamp. The player gets away with it. Annoying but that's the roll of the dice. An AR sees it and calls it it. Job done! Just as with abuse!



In my last last example, the player is only saying he's got caught again and he can't take it anymore... In a sense he's paying the ref a compliment... Definitely a RC offense according to certain posts above.

You think that is all he means? I think Phil answered this question earlier. If you don't want to be "misunderstood" don't go there.




I admit, my tolerance is probably too high and I need to correct that. For the referee next weekend.
I agree and I will work on it.

I think we all agree with that.


But in all honesty, I still think this is far from being a "black & white" situation. The words used, the tone, the situation, the direction, the look on the player's face... Everything should be taken into consideration...



And you don't think the AR did that?

- - - Updated - - -


If you can't identify the player, you can presumably still report the club for bringing the game into disrepute. The evidence is that they took no steps to deal with the miscreant. Might be a safer approach.

Agreed. Random cards do none of us a service.

andyscott
24-10-14, 13:10
Well, that's my second point. If one of our English fellow ref were to have an exchange program in Wales and a player would swear in Welsh, no one would know what he actually says.


Does anyone in Wales actually speak Welsh?

I would just shrug my shoulders and say, "sorry all I heard was something about sheep" smile and play on.

Pegleg
24-10-14, 13:10
Indeed they do. However, there are no real "swear words" in the language. So pretty much all the swearing will be in English. I think swearing is usually refereed to as "Anglo Saxon.:wales:

Browner
24-10-14, 14:10
Swearing at me only offends me IF i recognise it as such, so any player that is capable of swearing in a language not recognised likely gets away with it only because my ignorance is my bliss....

Any team with Uri Wain-Kerr playing at fly half might get the benefit of doubt ! :wink: