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Taffy
23-10-14, 22:10
I have heard and read that years ago clubs used to send in little cards indicating their view on the refereeing that day. These then helped grading secretaries and gave another view of how the ref was getting on by those who should have some sort of an idea of what they are talking or writing about.

Has this now ended? If so, why did it end? Or is it not relevant at my lower level (Grade 11).

Simon Thomas
23-10-14, 22:10
I have heard and read that years ago clubs used to send in little cards indicating their view on the refereeing that day. These then helped grading secretaries and gave another view of how the ref was getting on by those who should have some sort of an idea of what they are talking or writing about.

Has this now ended? If so, why did it end? Or is it not relevant at my lower level (Grade 11).

We have used them for many years and still use them in Hampshire at all levels.
As Grading Chairman I collect them and enter the details into an Excel spreadsheet for analysis. We are currently trialling a WhosTheRef smartphone app to place the cards.

Devon are one of the few English Societies that don't use WTR so you won't use the smartphone ones.

When playing and having the honour of skippering in Hampshire in 1990s and in London in 1980s every ref offered post match cards to both skippers.

Taffy
23-10-14, 22:10
How helpful are they Simon and why don't we do them in Devon?

ctrainor
23-10-14, 22:10
Not used up here either

crossref
23-10-14, 22:10
The London Society has feedback cards and (I am told) attaches importance to them.
The captains usually fill them in there and then. Alternatively they can take them away and post them back.

crossref
23-10-14, 22:10
The first thing that a feedback card tells you is who won.

Simon Thomas
23-10-14, 23:10
How helpful are they Simon and why don't we do them in Devon?

For us they are a useful tool for support / additional information to formal Match Observer Reports.
They show trends, they highlight commonalities or potential training topics, and in the main are fairly objective (with a few outliers, silly entries, sore losers etc).

You will have to ask your own guys why you don't use them in Devon - incidentally a successful Society with a good track record in developing referees including those who go onto Panel. In fact last weekend we had an Exchnage with Devon at the usual levels 6, 7, & 8 - the Devon guys who came up here were excellent.

OB..
24-10-14, 00:10
We stopped using them this season. The committee decided that the cost of printing and postinage was not justified by the value of the returns.

Phil E
24-10-14, 10:10
Warwickshire used them (not sure if they still do) for newer refs, around levels 9 or 10 down to 13, 14 etc.

In isolation the cards are meaningless, but over the course of half a season or so, they show trends.
If every club marks a referee down in a particular area, then it 'might' indicate an issue.
If a club marks every ref down, or gives every ref top marks, then that club might need some 'guidance'?

TheBFG
24-10-14, 10:10
I know ST has said they take into account the score etc when going through the cards, but every card I've ever seen, just clearer states that the side that lost blames the ref!

Phil E
24-10-14, 10:10
I know ST has said they take into account the score etc when going through the cards, but every card I've ever seen, just clearer states that the side that lost blames the ref!

That is not my experience. In fact quite often it would be the other way round, as if the winning team thought it gave them the right to criticise because it 'wouldn't' be seen as sour grapes.

Taffy
24-10-14, 10:10
Who fills the forms out?
is it only one per club?
is this in addition to the chat in the bar afterwards?

not convinced that straight after the game is a good measure
would be better the week following but guess then that people will forget.........

Lee Lifeson-Peart
24-10-14, 10:10
Yorkshire still use them. We are currently waiting for a new batch to come (A6 instead of last year's A5). They augment formal observations/assessments and as above can perhaps highlight trends in areas of the referee's game that may need development.

Their continued use in YRS suggests they are still of some help to those involved in grading.

crossref
24-10-14, 10:10
Who fills the forms out?
is it only one per club?
is this in addition to the chat in the bar afterwards?

not convinced that straight after the game is a good measure
would be better the week following but guess then that people will forget.........

In London
Two cards, one for each captain

I give the card to the captain in the bar after the game, with a pen , and say if you can fill it in now, that would be perfect , or you can take it away and post it back

(Only two have ever taken it away)

I then give them some privacy , and when they give the card back I will quickly look at it. If there is anything surprising I will ask about it specifically, but normally I will just ask an open question .. "any particular feedback for me?". This (for me) is the useful thing about the card, it provides a natural, unforced opportunity for a conversation and informal feedback

Average scores are definitely higher from the winning team (I have calculated!) but not always. And it's not stark difference .. losing teams don't routinely trash the Ref.

Often the scores will reflect just one specific incident or error. Eg If you make a hash on one advantage call, the captain marks you down on advantage. So any one card might illustrate just one mistake and doesn't say too much. But as others say, if it was same category every game that would be interesting.

Also on an individual game I always look to see if there is anything that *both* captains mark down. Last week the two captains between them marked me down on three different categories, but on all three while one captain had marked down, the other captain had given me a top mark *good*. So not too much I can get from that.

I am ambivalent about how useful they are, certainly they need to just part of a system. You wouldn't want cards to be the only performance measurement used.

Simon Thomas
24-10-14, 10:10
I know ST has said they take into account the score etc when going through the cards, but every card I've ever seen, just clearer states that the side that lost blames the ref!

Your sample is too low !

I get all 40-50 matches a week, every week and see in at least two-thirds objective sensible scores. Yes there are outliers and the teams that blame the ref that they lost - some with justification I have to say for some, based on what I have seen in observing a few refs over the years it can happen sometimes (rarely).

I remember one referee who got the tackle / jackler law totally wrong and penalised one side's legal turnovers;

another referee doing youth matches thought any scrum back foot offside was immaterial (a few years ago pre 5m law) and just would not have it in the post-match de-brief;

But usually a series of cards with the same issue noted by different teams leads to a match observer visit, a "reboot" or coaching advice and a re-motivated referee.

Decorily
24-10-14, 11:10
SIDESTEP ALERT!

To help me better understand this and other threads can someone give a brief explanation of the grading/levels system referred to ie; level 11 - is this a referee who referees youth games?

crossref
24-10-14, 12:10
SIDESTEP ALERT!

To help me better understand this and other threads can someone give a brief explanation of the grading/levels system referred to ie; level 11 - is this a referee who referees youth games?

1 is premiership
Then it counts down from there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_rugby_union_system

ctrainor
24-10-14, 18:10
Surely this could be done electronically these days. Minimal costs once set up

crossref
24-10-14, 18:10
Simons society are trialling such a system

Dixie
24-10-14, 21:10
Simon's society is trialling such a system

Don't feed the pedant!

Simon Thomas
24-10-14, 23:10
Simons society are trialling such a system

As are some other sports with the same PRIVATE software company.

It is not as simple as you think !

Taffy
06-11-14, 20:11
Simons society are trialling such a system

Simon, how is it going? And how does it work?

what are the questions asked on current scoring cards?

Simon Thomas
06-11-14, 21:11
Simon, how is it going? And how does it work?

what are the questions asked on current scoring cards?

Slower than expected.

Date, teams, score
Did referee know the laws
Was the referee safe
Did referee play advantage
Did ref keep up with play ?
Did referee contribute to enjoyment of game ?
Comments

Taffy
06-11-14, 21:11
Slower than expected.

Date, teams, score
Did referee know the laws
Was the referee safe
Did referee play advantage
Did ref keep up with play ?
Did referee contribute to enjoyment of game ?
Comments


Do they get a yes or no option only in each aspect?

how often do people fill in comments and what do they generally tend to be?

Percentage wize, how many "spoiled papers or silly responses" do you get?

are spectators ever asked to fill one out?

is it just one per team?

do you insist on them being returned or leave it to the ref to decide?

Will the electronic version differ on any material way?

Sorry that feels a bit like the Spanish Inquisition! But seriously very, very interested.

chbg
06-11-14, 22:11
Given the number of urban myths out there, how much reliance can one put on captains'/coaches' assessment of the referee's knowledge of the Laws? Just asking.

Good to have Safety in there, but how about comments on Equity, and Consistency throughout the whole 80 minutes?

Simon Thomas
06-11-14, 22:11
Do they get a yes or no option only in each aspect?
No they enter a grade A to E, same as London use.

how often do people fill in comments and what do they generally tend to be?
Less than 10% make comments. usually positive but sometimes constuctive criticism, and a few emotional rants

Percentage wize, how many "spoiled papers or silly responses" do you get?
< 1%

are spectators ever asked to fill one out?
Never, why would we do that

is it just one per team?
Yes, to skipper or team coach / manager

do you insist on them being returned or leave it to the ref to decide? No need to insist, they were retuned by post in the past, now usually via hand back to referee who puts them in a box at the monthly meeting / by post to me / scanned and email to me. This is a very well-established process over many years so used sensibly and constructively by 99% of clubs and teams

If referees hold back cards, submit self-completed ones etc, I am good at spotting they are doing it. But why would they as it is all about their development, which is a positive thing, it is not a test or an exam or a negative - unfortunately there are some referees's elsewhere who have this impression and a paranoid view of life.

Will the electronic version differ on any material way?
No exactly the same

Sorry that feels a bit like the Spanish Inquisition! But seriously very, very interested.
And no one expects ...............

Taffy
06-11-14, 23:11
"are spectators ever asked to fill one out?"

interested enough to ask again......

Simon,

Presumably it's because you feel nothing could be achieved by this? I ask as I am interested as to what sort of input a regular rugby watcher might possibly have. For a spectator that is used to seeing games over many levels and many years, do you not feel they might have some valid points to make?

"Not the comfy chair......."

Taffy
06-11-14, 23:11
Oh and how many cards would a ref normally get back a year - about 50 presumably on 25 games reffed?

Think I might have answered my own question here......

:wales:

crossref
07-11-14, 00:11
Oh and how many cards would a ref normally get back a year - about 50 presumably on 25 games reffed?

Think I might have answered my own question here......

:wales:

So far this season I am missing just one card (i was assessed and by the time the assessor had finished feedback away captain had gone home)
Just one captain has taken the card away to post back {and surprised with a full house of Goods :} }

Simon Thomas
07-11-14, 08:11
"are spectators ever asked to fill one out?"

interested enough to ask again......

Simon,

Presumably it's because you feel nothing could be achieved by this? I ask as I am interested as to what sort of input a regular rugby watcher might possibly have. For a spectator that is used to seeing games over many levels and many years, do you not feel they might have some valid points to make?

"Not the comfy chair......."




Taffy - the system was set up by Hampshire and London way back (we had them in 1970s at least).

Many clubs have highly informed and rugby experienced spectators and any sensible referee is likely to get to now them over the years. They will talk to them in the clubhouse hopefully and have an honest change of views.
However there are also a lot of one-eyed, ill-informed, subjective, aggressive spectators who referees identify and try to avoid (infamous Alison at Lydney).

However the system as was set up many years ago works for us (and London) and is still operating today. It is for the skipper (or coach) to complete a referee feedback card as part of the formal process.

I have little enough time to cope with 400 + cards I get each month, let alone add extra ones from spectators. All I can anticipate is hassle trouble and perceived referee gotchas by spectators - so it will never happen under my watch in Hampshire. We are always very happy to welcome the spectator to a Society assessors course !

We have an 70-80% return rate of cards - two per match. We use it as a development tool, not a check-up so we do not make it mandatory. After all none of us are jobsworths,mare we ?

Taffy
07-11-14, 08:11
Thanks Simon for that.

What is the A to E grading? How does that work?

Is the new system going to be based on an on line survey?

Simon Thomas
07-11-14, 11:11
Thanks Simon for that.

What is the A to E grading? How does that work?

Is the new system going to be based on an on line survey?

Sorry Taffy, I haven't got time to keep replying on this.

A is excellent, E is poor, just a sliding scale.
No it is a smartphone app form, with exactly the same layout as the printed card.

- - - Updated - - -


Thanks Simon for that.

What is the A to E grading? How does that work?

Is the new system going to be based on an on line survey?

Sorry Taffy, I haven't got time to keep replying on this.

A is excellent, E is poor, just a sliding scale.
No it is a smartphone app form, with exactly the same layout as the printed card.

Taffy
07-11-14, 11:11
Sorry Taffy, I haven't got time to keep replying on this.

A is excellent, E is poor, just a sliding scale.
No it is a smartphone app form, with exactly the same layout as the printed card.

- - - Updated - - -



Sorry Taffy, I haven't got time to keep replying on this.

A is excellent, E is poor, just a sliding scale.
No it is a smartphone app form, with exactly the same layout as the printed card.

cheers Simon.

crossref
07-11-14, 12:11
seeing as this causes so much interest - here's an example card.
3067
to make it fun for everyone I chose a card with a comment :)
I will leave it to you to guess if this came from the winning or losing captain.

Simon Thomas
07-11-14, 12:11
Given the number of urban myths out there, how much reliance can one put on captains'/coaches' assessment of the referee's knowledge of the Laws? Just asking.

Good to have Safety in there, but how about comments on Equity, and Consistency throughout the whole 80 minutes?

Chbg

You know the five things which are on the printed card already as you use them, and I did this train from memory so got it a bit wrong but generally the right ideas.

There are no plans to review, change or expand the list of questions that have served us well for the last 20 years.

There are lots of other things we could consider and include, but not on the agenda.

The issues you raise are covered on the Coaching and Assessment Forms which are written by training observers.

TheBFG
07-11-14, 14:11
so the fact that it says ...................................... Capt Away team, ????

crossref
07-11-14, 15:11
curses.