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Taffy
23-10-14, 22:10
Yesterday, University game.

Normal pre match chat. Tell captains they need to control discipline, so we won't be having any appealing or shouting out or trying to ref the game. Everything comes through them. They of course agree.

A university team playing in Purple

2nd minute appealing from gobby scrum half. I remind captain what we spoke about.
4th minute "He's got his hands on ref". Penalty
I then tell captain to get a grip
6th minute "What about the offside ref?"
Yellow card
12th minute another yellow for an appeal and hands in the air......

Was this the point where I should have binned the captain?

The Green Team opposition wised up straight away with the captain telling me "Everything alright sir?" We are keeping our discipline aren't we? They were as clean as a whistle, I have reffed them several times before.

Result was that Green hammered Purple despite being well below them in skill and league position. At least three of their trys came from penalties for dissent.

There was quite a bit more chat and the Purple captain just didn't get it.

A good lesson for me, but as always was there anything else I could have done?

Rushforth
23-10-14, 22:10
If Purple captain didn't make any direct comments of that nature to you, then not only is there no reason to bin him, but all the more reason to sympathise with the poor bugger.

I'm too lenient in the other direction, mind.

Ian_Cook
23-10-14, 22:10
Sounds to me like you have copped the legacy of previous referees not being tough enough on the Purple team.

Ask
Tell
Penalse
Bin

That is pretty much what you did. If they don't get it, just keep penalising and binning them (ultimately RC if needs be) until they do. That is all you can do. You cannot force them to stop. but creating a disincentive for them to continue their behaviour is the biggest tool you have in the toolbox.

You might consider reporting the problems you had to your association/society


PS: and Rushforth is right, binning the captain is not an option unless he is also dissenting!

crossref
23-10-14, 22:10
Yesterday, University game.

Normal pre match chat. Tell captains they need to control discipline, so we won't be having any appealing or shouting out or trying to ref the game. Everything comes through them. They of course agree.


Does saying this in the PMB actually achieve anything?

Phil E
24-10-14, 00:10
Does saying this in the PMB actually achieve anything?

Yes, it puts the onus on them.....Captain you told me in the brief that you were going to deal with this.
It might not stop it happening, but it gives you the moral high ground by putting the monkey on their back.
In other words, it's their problem, not yours, you have no option, your not being nasty, just dealing with what they said they would deal with for you, but failed to do so.

I am a great believer in passing responsibility to others, it makes refereeing easier.

I.e. "The law says, that offence is a Yellow Card". Not my choice, it's the law. They can argue with you, but not with the law, because it is faceless. Likewise, they can potentially argue with you calling desent, but if they said they would deal with it, then it's no longer your problem; it's theirs.

crossref
24-10-14, 06:10
Yes, but does it actually, in practice, reduce the level of dissent?

Or does it give the message that you are expecting it?

If told you last game I warned the two captains not to allow any fighting, you might think 'aha local derby , two team with a history of fighting'

Ian_Cook
24-10-14, 07:10
Yes, but does it actually, in practice, reduce the level of dissent?

Or does it give the message that you are expecting it?

If told you last game I warned the two captains not to allow any fighting, you might think 'aha local derby , two team with a history of fighting'

It may or may not. That will depend on the attitude of the team (or teams)


As PhilE says, it places the onus on them to maintain the behaviour of their teams, so that when you get the first gobby 9 trying to referee the game, you can remind his skipper that he was going to take control of that aspect of their behaviour.

andyscott
24-10-14, 08:10
Does saying this in the PMB actually achieve anything?

No as you can tell, why tell the captains that? I have never heard a ref say, ah dong worry about just have loads off ill discipline today.

Telling them about it pre match makes you look like you dont know what you are doing. Go in total professional, FR brief and leave. They will think automatically you are a good ref as you dont need to tell them all of that bollocks ;)

1st bit of appealing time off, bollock the player in front of both captains.
next PK
Next YC
Next YC with a promise of a red (and carry it out).

Never bin the captain, or re warn. They have had their chance and they know their responsibilities.

Simon Thomas
24-10-14, 08:10
Taffy - also play devil's advocate and ask yourself why did they ignore you ?

Was your pre-match communication the most effective and appropriate ? Could a different approach or even words be needed for youth, schools, Uni and adult players ? Are you too quick to be confrontational ? Do you vary the communication methods - quiet word on ear rather than authoritarian demand that everyone can hear ?

Referee management skills are crucial and cover verbal, non-verbal techniques. The result is how you effectively control the game, the players and other match participants, which needs you to be flexible and adaptable to what is in front of you.

From what you say in the OP you could have escalated far too quickly and given a very fast early yellow card. But don't beat yourself up, it happens to all of us !

Here is an extract from a recent report for a L 6 referee on exchange in Devon !

"COMMUNICATION
Referee x has a good presence both on and off the field and communicates well with his voice, signals and whistle. Today however he was a little too tolerant of some players (especially the Devon Club A fly-half) who were constantly appealing for decisions and questioning his decisions who should have been dealt with more firmly."

"In today’s game X showed he is quite capable and competent at level 6 he has a good attitude and is certainly fit enough. He has the potential to go higher up the refereeing ladder especially if he can take on board his positioning and management issue that were apparent in todays game."
​​​​​​​​​​​​

​​​​​​​​​​​​

DrSTU
24-10-14, 08:10
Somewhat agree and disagree. I keep it for the coin toss and tell captains 'discipline is through you, if you can't deal with it I will' sends a clear enough message without being too word. Then I agree with Andy, 1st one, peep, we discussed discipline speech, PK... escalate as appropriate.


No as you can tell, why tell the captains that? I have never heard a ref say, ah dong worry about just have loads off ill discipline today.

Telling them about it pre match makes you look like you dont know what you are doing. Go in total professional, FR brief and leave. They will think automatically you are a good ref as you dont need to tell them all of that bollocks ;)

1st bit of appealing time off, bollock the player in front of both captains.
next PK
Next YC
Next YC with a promise of a red (and carry it out).

Never bin the captain, or re warn. They have had their chance and they know their responsibilities.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
24-10-14, 09:10
Somewhat agree and disagree. I keep it for the coin toss and tell captains 'discipline is through you, if you can't deal with it I will' sends a clear enough message without being too word. Then I agree with Andy, 1st one, peep, we discussed discipline speech, PK... escalate as appropriate.

I agree with the good Doctor and do similalrly. I risk them thinking I don't know what I'm doing - and confirm it once the whistle goes.:biggrin:

Taffy
24-10-14, 10:10
Quite inclined to try out andy Scott method and see what reaction it gets.......

always up up for learning.......

ddjamo
24-10-14, 12:10
they have already heard it before...do refs think that their tongues are so magic that words alone will snap the players, through the captain, into 80min of compliance?

less is better. it builds trust. stand tall and confident. say few words and get out of there. I prefer feedback from captains like, "first guy ever to treat me with respect and not talk down to me." empathy and respect vs repeating the same crap they have heard ad nauseam.

how would you guys like it that every time you showed up to a match there was an assessor there that repeated the scrum cadence to you as if you had never heard it before? or went over the tackle sequence with you 20 times a season? all the while you are managing those aspects of play - but they just say it to you anyway? that's what a pmb is to a player.

Ronald
24-10-14, 12:10
This is a tough issue...I tend to tailor my approach depending on the level and age of the players I am reffing. You certainly can't handle a 2nd team club player the same as you do an u/14 boy. Luckily for me, most teams I get to ref I have reffed last season, or sometimes earlier in the current season, so you tend to know when and where to expect trouble. I also like Andy Scott's approach, very similar to mine.

andyscott
24-10-14, 12:10
Thats how i deal with appealing.

For dissent, march 10 straight away.
Time off, thats the last time I march someone skipper.
Then Yellow anything else.

They learn.

I apply this to all game I do, this season at level 4 through to level 9. They all respond, despite people thinking they wont at lower levels. They actually respect you more for applying a higher standard. Think back to school, who do you respect the most, the teacher that was tough, but good, or the one who was soft?? You are not there during the 80mins to be their mate.

DrSTU
24-10-14, 13:10
Interesting one for you, do you still march the 10 when it's a slow penalty? I can't remember the last time I plodded 10m forward at a slow penalty situation like dissent. I'd rather deal with it there and then.
Thats how i deal with appealing.

For dissent, march 10 straight away.
Time off, thats the last time I march someone skipper.
Then Yellow anything else.

They learn.

I apply this to all game I do, this season at level 4 through to level 9. They all respond, despite people thinking they wont at lower levels. They actually respect you more for applying a higher standard. Think back to school, who do you respect the most, the teacher that was tough, but good, or the one who was soft?? You are not there during the 80mins to be their mate.

andyscott
24-10-14, 13:10
Interesting one for you, do you still march the 10 when it's a slow penalty? I can't remember the last time I plodded 10m forward at a slow penalty situation like dissent. I'd rather deal with it there and then.

Yeah I do, its about selling my YC next. The whole crowd, coaching team and players switch to supporting me and turn against the dissenter ;)
March forward then bollocking, sells your decision for me. YMMV

DrSTU
24-10-14, 13:10
Hmm, I think that marching forward and then stopping somewhat removes the effectiveness of moving the 10m as you're taking away the chaotic benefit of the offending side having to rearrange quickly and thus, the quick tap becomes less effective for the attacking team.

But as you say, each to their own.

Yeah I do, its about selling my YC next. The whole crowd, coaching team and players switch to supporting me and turn against the dissenter ;)
March forward then bollocking, sells your decision for me. YMMV

Accylad
24-10-14, 16:10
Hmm, I think that marching forward and then stopping somewhat removes the effectiveness of moving the 10m as you're taking away the chaotic benefit of the offending side having to rearrange quickly and thus, the quick tap becomes less effective for the attacking team. .

But what it also does is communicates the fact that you wont tolerate it to BOTH teams. I find the team walking forward 10 are happy to be 10 metres on and the captain and senior players usually communicate the message for you to their lot while you bollock the dissenter....

SimonSmith
24-10-14, 18:10
PMB to captains - especially College:

"Discipline is yours. I'm happy to explain; I won't be debated and I won't be told what I'm missing. We all clear?"

barker14610
24-10-14, 19:10
they have already heard it before...do refs think that their tongues are so magic that words alone will snap the players, through the captain, into 80min of compliance?

less is better. it builds trust. stand tall and confident. say few words and get out of there. I prefer feedback from captains like, "first guy ever to treat me with respect and not talk down to me." empathy and respect vs repeating the same crap they have heard ad nauseam.

how would you guys like it that every time you showed up to a match there was an assessor there that repeated the scrum cadence to you as if you had never heard it before? or went over the tackle sequence with you 20 times a season? all the while you are managing those aspects of play - but they just say it to you anyway? that's what a pmb is to a player.

This is right. It is their game. Come down hard on the first one. Make an example. They will calm down.

Rushforth
24-10-14, 19:10
This is right. It is their game. Come down hard on the first one. Make an example. They will calm down.

I agree with ddjamo's post, and obviously your approach works for you.

I absolutely agree with it being "their game". But since I don't PMB the whole team, nor even front rows, I for one am hesitant to "come down hard", particularly to "make an example".

Mind you, dissent seems rare when I ref, at least compared to "appeals". Then again, my captains invariably ask me at the "any questions" part of the toss/PMB when the ball is out of the ruck. Which implies a lack of both consistency of my peers and knowledge of the captains ... .

Pegleg
24-10-14, 20:10
You don't PMB the front rows? What does your union say about that? I done a few Netherland touring sides and they've all expected one.

Rushforth
24-10-14, 20:10
You don't PMB the front rows? What does your union say about that? I done a few Netherland touring sides and they've all expected one.

I usually check with the coaches that they have a suitably trained and experienced front row, remind them that I will make mark for hookers to have right ear above it on the "bind" - which I repeat on the first scrum in addition to "shoulders level".

I do PMB front rows if it is clear that they need it, which is the case any time youth teams I have not PMB'd before are for sure, but this season it seems that the message has gotten through. There are no "hits" to worry about.

Pegleg
24-10-14, 21:10
So, I repeat, what does your union say?

Rushforth
24-10-14, 22:10
So, I repeat, what does your union say?

I'll let you know in 10 days time. My current position is based on my own experience that it hasn't necessary last year, triggered by a past head coach of the national team here.

If you want to discuss the scrum and/or PMB of more than front row, I suggest we take it to another thread.

Pegleg
25-10-14, 09:10
Interested that a past national coach seems to be dictating referee policy. I'd have thought you'd seek that information from your association / society not a coach.

If a coach told me a PMB was "not required" I'd be refusing to start the game and reporting the reason why.

Interesting.

barker14610
25-10-14, 17:10
I absolutely agree with it being "their game". But since I don't PMB the whole team, nor even front rows, I for one am hesitant to "come down hard", particularly to "make an example".

The players know the law, especially this one. Do you not call a high tackle because you did not address it with everyone before the match? Jamo's key here is to just be respectful to the captains and it works well.

Rushforth
25-10-14, 20:10
If a coach told me a PMB was "not required" I'd be refusing to start the game and reporting the reason why.

Ok, you seem to be misprepresenting what I wrote. This may be because you are unaware between the difference of "suggesting" and "telling". The word I used earlier was "triggered".

The coach in question suggested they knew the law, as per barker below. Since I had told him I was about to do the PMB, I didn't acquiesce to his suggestion at the time.

After proceeding with the front row PMB, we had a game with no real scrum issues, which is common now the blight of "the hit" has been removed.

I did not have any further discussion with this coach after that match, nor at any other time about that specific issue with him. I may see him tomorrow, as it happens, so I can raise the issue.

But to rerail:

The Fat
25-10-14, 20:10
I'll let you know in 10 days time. My current position is based on my own experience that it hasn't necessary last year, triggered by a past head coach of the national team here.

If you want to discuss the scrum and/or PMB of more than front row, I suggest we take it to another thread.

Sounds like a past national coach "pulling rank" on what he obviously sees as "a lowly referee who knows less than me" situation. Not much respect shown there and you haven't even started the game yet.

Rushforth
25-10-14, 20:10
The players know the law, especially this one. Do you not call a high tackle because you did not address it with everyone before the match? Jamo's key here is to just be respectful to the captains and it works well.

Absolutely, but my problem is not dissent as such. The Dutch believe they have the right to share their opinion on anything at all times. The vast majority of Dutch rugby players actually manage to refrain from doing so for 80 minutes. The remainder do not dissent (as such) but rather "appeal".

In general they do not retaliate for high tackles - or what they think are high tackles even if they aren't - but rather appeal.

Don't get me wrong, anything nasty I will come down on like a ton of bricks. I will reverse penalties for backchat. It just isn't necessary very often here.

Rushforth
25-10-14, 20:10
Sounds like a past national coach "pulling rank" on what he obviously sees as "a lowly referee who knows less than me" situation. Not much respect shown there and you haven't even started the game yet.

I'm sorry if it sounds like that, but this was in the context of his (2nd) team turning up with 12 players and being filled up to the full 15 by their opponents, at the lowest level of senior rugby here.

He is a referee himself too. Trust me, your thoughts are unfounded.

The Fat
25-10-14, 23:10
I'm sorry if it sounds like that, but this was in the context of his (2nd) team turning up with 12 players and being filled up to the full 15 by their opponents, at the lowest level of senior rugby here.

He is a referee himself too. Trust me, your thoughts are unfounded.

Fair enough then

ChrisR
26-10-14, 12:10
Re. the OP. I think that you have to differentiate between "appeal" and "dissent". The examples in the OP are "appeals" and, even tho they can be distracting and irritating, they don't warrant the same response as dissent. An immediate call to "Play on" is a way of saying "I saw it and it's not illegal/material."

However, when there is a constant stream of appeals for offences that you have "missed" it does become a form of dissent as the player is verbally disagreeing with your decision to 'play on'. Time to call in the skipper and the appealer to let them know that the line is about to be crossed and sanctions will be applied.

Pegleg
26-10-14, 13:10
Ok, you seem to be misprepresenting what I wrote. This may be because you are unaware between the difference of "suggesting" and "telling". The word I used earlier was "triggered".

The coach in question suggested they knew the law, as per barker below. Since I had told him I was about to do the PMB, I didn't acquiesce to his suggestion at the time.

After proceeding with the front row PMB, we had a game with no real scrum issues, which is common now the blight of "the hit" has been removed.

I did not have any further discussion with this coach after that match, nor at any other time about that specific issue with him. I may see him tomorrow, as it happens, so I can raise the issue.

But to rerail:

Your play with words is admirable. However a coach is in no position to Suggest / tell or trigger you to act outside what your union (refs' dept) require from you. Thank you but my understanding of English is just fine. The nuances of English may be lost up you. It is however, my mother tongue. A coach "suggesting" is in 99% of occasions Telling you what he wants you to do. To think otherwise is somewhat naive.

And I reiterate you are best asking the referees' department rather than a players' coach for instructions as to what is expected of by your union. A coaches' "wants" may differ greatly from what the Union "wants". You answer to the union NOT a coach.

Blackberry
26-10-14, 13:10
"The nuances of English may be lost up you". That's a classic, bad luck there Pegleg.
Did Rushworth give a PMB despite the coach's suggestion? As I understand it he did.

Rushforth
26-10-14, 16:10
And I reiterate you are best asking the referees' department rather than a players' coach for instructions as to what is expected of by your union.

Last year I went to our monthly referees meeting for a change. Coaches were also invited and were roughly equally represented. The reason I went (50km drive) is that the main technical issue presented and discussed was how to be consistent at the scrum. As it happens I'll be going to the monthly meeting a week on Monday, when the scrum will be presented from a coaching perspective (i.e. more than just the front row PMB).

To return to the subject at hand, during the match and for the hour before it, the only influence dissent will have on me is an extra 10m if it is a penalty, or perhaps a reversal of a penalty if players feel the urge to tell me what the offence was. I will listen to respectful suggestions from captains before scrums or line-outs, or at half time, and although I may remember what coaches suggest for future reference, I am not going to change my refereeing style on the day. So that day I did, and I still sometimes do, FR PMB.

P.S. Thank you for the compliment. When my father played for the Dutch against Belgium - before I was a twinkle in his eye - he was complimented by the referee, a British Army officer stationed in Germany, on his English. My father replied that he had gone to school in England.

Pegleg
26-10-14, 16:10
No complement and you still avoid stating what the instruction is from the referees' leadership in the Netherlands. Do you actually have an answer or not?

Pegleg
26-10-14, 16:10
PS: I'm not sure what your father's education has to do with it. Sorry.

Browner
26-10-14, 16:10
Last year I went to our monthly referees meeting for a change. Coaches were also invited and were roughly equally represented. The reason I went (50km drive) is that the main technical issue presented and discussed was how to be consistent at the scrum. As it happens I'll be going to the monthly meeting a week on Monday, when the scrum will be presented from a coaching perspective (i.e. more than just the front row PMB).

To return to the subject at hand, during the match and for the hour before it, the only influence dissent will have on me is an extra 10m if it is a penalty, or perhaps a reversal of a penalty if players feel the urge to tell me what the offence was. I will listen to respectful suggestions from captains before scrums or line-outs, or at half time, and although I may remember what coaches suggest for future reference, I am not going to change my refereeing style on the day. So that day I did, and I still sometimes do, FR PMB.

P.S. Thank you for the compliment. When my father played for the Dutch against Belgium - before I was a twinkle in his eye - he was complimented by the referee, a British Army officer stationed in Germany, on his English. My father replied that he had gone to school in England.

* It couldn't have been a IRB meeting then ..... :pepper:

* hearsay !

:biggrin:

winchesterref
26-10-14, 17:10
No complement

Are you sure English is your mother tongue? :)

Rushforth
26-10-14, 17:10
No complement and you still avoid stating what the instruction is from the referees' leadership in the Netherlands. Do you actually have an answer or not?

I have an answer to everything. Whether I am right or not is a different matter. I will discuss with senior referees a week tomorrow at the monthly meeting.

Would you like me to ask my father tonight if he did a PMB at all matches? He was passed over for selection for refereeing international matches in his (refereeing) prime, but was chairman of the Dutch elite referee selection panel after that door had closed.

Pegleg
26-10-14, 17:10
All I'm asking for is a straight answer. Does your union require a PMB? YES or NO? How difficult is it to answer that question?

Blackberry
26-10-14, 18:10
I'm not sure OUR union requires a FR PMB, the requirement, or is it the very strong advice, comes from elsewhere doesn't it? I think you have latched (firmly) onto an irrelevant question. Here's an idea, can you find out where the imperative for us to have a FR PMB comes from? This might help you arrive at an answer.

Rushforth
26-10-14, 18:10
Note that Pegleg may not be in England or other 4N (home countries).

I checked with my father, and between 1960 and 2000 he did not do FR PMB.

Mind you, dissent is something he never had to deal with before the professional era.

Pegleg
26-10-14, 19:10
It really is a simple question. Why do you not want to answer it? I'm not bothered what the answer is I would just like you to answer the question.

The point behind my question and other posts is that you need to listen to your "bosses" and not coaches or ex refs for your instruction on what is required.

I assume you will not / can not (that begs the question: "why not?" of course) your call. .

Pegleg
26-10-14, 19:10
I'm not sure OUR union requires a FR PMB, the requirement, or is it the very strong advice, comes from elsewhere doesn't it? I think you have latched (firmly) onto an irrelevant question. Here's an idea, can you find out where the imperative for us to have a FR PMB comes from? This might help you arrive at an answer.

My union insistes on a PMB others may not. All I've asked Rushforth is what do his bosses require as mandatory. I understand that in England it is "optional". Here it is not. It seem strange that Rushforth does not know what is required of him by his union.

Rushforth
26-10-14, 19:10
It seem strange that Rushforth does not know what is required of him by his union.

You might think it seems strange.

What my union requires:
1) Referee to make a clear mark where the scrum is (right ear of hooker to be above this on "bind")
2) Call crouch only when 2nd row is fully ready, and 3rd row also in a position to bind on 2nd row players for the scrum
3) Bind: both front rows "ear-to-ear" with shoulders level within each front row
4) Set: maximum "hit" to be the distance from ear to shoulder
5) Feed by SH: straight down the middle, no delay but also not "immediate on yes 9". Straight down the middle defined as "if part of the ball is over the chalk" if it happens to be on a convenient line.
6) Back-row players not to unbind before the ball is out of the scrum.

This is required at all levels of all players, and has been since early last season (so for about a year now).

My apologies that my union succeeded in communicating to both referees and players of all levels what was expected. My apologies that at the end of last season when I asked the front rows after PMB if they had any questions, and the only question was "when is the ball out of the ruck?" every time. Because they had the same PMB consistently every week last season, and frankly didn't want to "enjoy the hit", which in my opinion was the only reason PMBs were essential for a period.

Pegleg, I don't mind arguing on points of matter, and I don't take it personally when I am arguing an issue and might choose to feel insulted. "It seem strange ... does not know" could be interpreted as a character attack (ad hominem). I'd rather interpret it as me usually being too lazy to clarify my position unless fully questioned, and I hope that the first half of this post is enough to convince you that I do have at least somewhat of a clue about what I speak of.

Could you please share your union, Pegleg? You have posted here almost 300 times here in the last two months, sometimes very valuably.

Blackberry
26-10-14, 20:10
Pegleg, is it your union that makes this requirement? Are you sure its not actually your society? Can you show us what your union said?

Pegleg
26-10-14, 20:10
So you long winded answer is merely to state that the Union in the Netherlands does not require a PMB. Now why could you not have said that first time round?

The fact that you chose not to answer the question despite several requests that you do so suggest there may be reasons why you were not prepared to do so. As simple answer first time would have avoided the question and your perceived "insult". Answering questions without avoidance is very simple and avoids confusion.

I have already posted where I ref. West Wales is the repeat answer.

Pegleg
26-10-14, 20:10
Pegleg, is it your union that makes this requirement? Are you sure its not actually your society? Can you show us what your union said?


I am very sure that it's the WRU and not my society that makes this demand.

To clearly state the position in Wales (I do not know of the regulations in any other country)


The Welsh rugby union makes the demand that a PMB is done every game. This is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis. I do not have it in writing so sorry I cannot proved written evidence. You may take my word on not as is your choice. If you wish I'm sure a tweet to St Nigel will confirm. He has, on more than one occasion, made the instruction very clear. It is re iterated in out Level one training and during the Level 2 training.


I have refereed many sides from England, France and the Netherlands. None have shown any surprise at the Brief. In fact most of those sides have asked when I will be doing the PMB. They clearly expect one to be done.

Blackberry
26-10-14, 20:10
Pegleg, could you get a precise answer about what you believe the WRU requires, and the expected content of the Union mandated PMB?
I am struggling to believe that if it is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis it is not in writing. Can you come back to us with this please? It will be very useful. I am guessing that something this important you will have it instantly to hand.

Edit: I've noticed your post now says you "are very certain" which I hope you will forgive me is not the same as certain. Let us know what you find.

Rushforth
26-10-14, 21:10
So you long winded answer is merely to state that the Union in the Netherlands does not require a PMB. Now why could you not have said that first time round?

No, I have not yet asked for a union opinion on not doing PMB at all times. I will ask so in 8 days time, as I have stated more than once, at our monthly meeting (which I only attend annually).

I cannot answer you with formal clarifications by my local union - and no, Blackberry, we don't have a society as such, sadly - when I have not even asked them yet. That I am guarded in my personal answers online is based on my experience of how to react online, which you cannot know, but even on these forums I was lambasted for sticking to the Welsh definition of the forward pass until I finally gave up (not at all coincidentally at the same time as I stopped worrying about the "hit" in scrums).

Also, I am long-winded at times because I don't have the skill to keep my gab shorter. So there you go. Diolch.

crossref
26-10-14, 21:10
All of this exchange merely illustrates something we have long known : nowhere is it written what *must* be in a PMB.

Phil E
26-10-14, 21:10
All of this exchange merely illustrates something we have long known : nowhere is it written what *must* be in a PMB.

It is stated several times In the ELRA that a FR brief is mandatory at all games.

Rushforth
26-10-14, 21:10
It is stated several times In the ELRA that a FR brief is mandatory at all games.

Has the education at Entry Level been adjusted since the reduction of the hit, on this issue?

Also, this issue is worth a thread of its own.

crossref
26-10-14, 22:10
All of this exchange merely illustrates something we have long known : nowhere is it written what *must* be in a PMB.

It is stated several times In the ELRA that a FR brief is mandatory at all games.

But the ELRA is just one course, that ran for a few years, now defunct, which has never been a pre requisite to be a ref in England. Probably most referees in England have not done the ELRA.

Phil E
26-10-14, 22:10
Has the education at Entry Level been adjusted since the reduction of the hit, on this issue?

Also, this issue is worth a thread of its own.

No, it's exactly the same. No matter what the Scrum Engagement sequence is, it must be communicated to the FR players before each game.

crossref
26-10-14, 22:10
Has the education at Entry Level been adjusted since the reduction of the hit, on this issue?

Also, this issue is worth a thread of its own.

No, it's exactly the same. No matter what the Scrum Engagement sequence is, it must be communicated to the FR players before each game.

But Phil, where is that written?

Phil E
27-10-14, 00:10
But Phil, where is that written?

In the course notes given to all candidates.

Pegleg
27-10-14, 00:10
Pegleg, could you get a precise answer about what you believe the WRU requires, and the expected content of the Union mandated PMB?
I am struggling to believe that if it is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis it is not in writing. Can you come back to us with this please? It will be very useful. I am guessing that something this important you will have it instantly to hand.

Edit: I've noticed your post now says you "are very certain" which I hope you will forgive me is not the same as certain. Let us know what you find.


TO clarify I will rephrase my answer

[QUOTE=Pegleg]I am very sure that it's the WRU and not my society that makes this demand.

To clearly state the position in Wales (I do not know of the regulations in any other country)


The Welsh rugby union makes the demand that a PMB is done every game. This is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis. I do not have it in writing so sorry I cannot proved written evidence. You may take my word on not as is your choice. If you wish I'm sure a tweet to St Nigel will confirm. He has, on more than one occasion, made the instruction very clear. It is reiterated in our Level one training and during the Level 2 training.


I have refereed many sides from England, France and the Netherlands. None have shown any surprise at the Brief. In fact most of those sides have asked when I will be doing the PMB. They clearly expect one to be done.[QUOTE]


Or to put it another way:

In Wales it is mandatory.

As I said, as you will know from reading my post:

1; I do not have it in writing. I fail to understand why you ask for it in writing when you have already be told I do not have it in that form.

2; I said very sure. (the word very being used to add weight to sure. Although it really in not required. Of course one is either sure or not. Very certainly is not used to diminish the strength of "sure")

3; The essential part of the brief is the Front row engagement process (currently CBS). Anything else is optional.

4; As stated already, but I will repeat as you seem not to be clear, I do not have this written down in any official communication. It is repeated at a minimum once a season and at virtually every discussion of refereeing the scrum (which is at least once a year). I would estimate it comes up, formally, at a minimum of 5 meeting a season. It comes up often with new refs asking what others put in their PMB.

As also stated. Them's the facts here in Wales. You may chose to belief me or not. that is your choice blackberry. But don't bother asking for what I've told you I can't provide.

Pegleg
27-10-14, 00:10
"The nuances of English may be lost up you". That's a classic, bad luck there Pegleg.



Who says it was an error?

Pegleg
27-10-14, 00:10
Are you sure English is your mother tongue? :)

My mother spoke it always. I speak both English and Welsh. I type badly.

Rushforth
27-10-14, 00:10
Who says it was an error?

I assumed it was an error, which is why I didn't comment on that or other typos. (ComplEment means to ... never mind, you can look it up).

My knowledge of the English vernacular is jaded. Are you trying to suggest that "Up yours" is what you meant? If you are joking, don't.

Pegleg
27-10-14, 01:10
No need thanks I know what both complement and compliment mean thanks. I also answer questions I'm asked. I can't help it if you don't like the answers.

Pegleg
27-10-14, 01:10
Final thought: In the Netherlands, surely you have some form of cascading information / directives down from the IRB / your National Union to individual referees. If you do I suggest it is to them you look for instruction rather than a coach (even an ex national one) or retired refs who are probably not on the "secret email" mailing list. Whether you take this suggestion on board is your choice.

I think I'll leave this thread to others now. Otherwise we will go round and round.

Rushforth
27-10-14, 01:10
No need thanks I know what both complement and compliment mean thanks. I also answer questions I'm asked. I can't help it if you don't like the answers.

And I can't help it if you are incapable of distinguishing answers from answerer. I have said more than once that I will seek guidance 8 days from now, which you have chosen to ignore.

Rushforth
27-10-14, 01:10
In the Netherlands, surely you have some form of cascading information

Yes, as per the combined referee/coaching briefing October 2013 which I attended, and as per the next scrum session the first Monday of November (8 days from now).

There are no secret e-mails here, and there is much to be improved upon, but the simple fact is that the newest engagement sequence is no longer new, the players at all levels are aware of it, and that my 20 second mini-rebrief at the first scrum seems to work may not be statistically supported. One collapsed today (wet weather last week, soft ground), which means that in the last seven weekends, so eleven matches, so I've had one scrum collapse in something like 15 hours of play.

Blackberry
27-10-14, 07:10
Who says it was an error?
Me! :)

And you are being a tad unreasonable demanding hard evidence from one member while being unable to offer the same level yourself.
I understand that Rushworth always did do a PMB, that like you he cannot be sure if its from the union or the societies, so that about wraps it up for me.

Pegleg
27-10-14, 08:10
Me! :)

And you are being a tad unreasonable demanding hard evidence from one member while being unable to offer the same level yourself.
I understand that Rushworth always did do a PMB, that like you he cannot be sure if its from the union or the societies, so that about wraps it up for me.

Ok one more word.

I asked for an answer not "hard evidence" Rushforth was not willing to give an answer. I have told you that I do not have it in writing and Unlike Rushforth I and Sure / certain / in no fount that it is the WRU that requires a PMB/

So please, if you are wishing to contest my comments please accurately represent my comments. You have changed my wording and put your amended wording in quotation marks. Thereby attributing comments to me that are untrue. You also, despite my posting the same comment twice are unwill in to se that I clearly states that I am sure of the origin of the instruction that We in Wales must give a PMB Here was the wording in my last comment on the matter "I am very sure that it's the WRU and not my society that makes this demand.

To clearly state the position in Wales (I do not know of the regulations in any other country)


The Welsh rugby union makes the demand that a PMB is done every game. This is conveyed to society meetings on a regular basis."


How clearer do you need my position to be stated? Those word state unequivocally that the origin of the demand is the WRU.

winchesterref
27-10-14, 09:10
My mother spoke it always. I speak both English and Welsh. I type badly.

Where is that tongue in cheek smiley...

crossref
27-10-14, 10:10
Blackberry has it right. Everyone *knows* we have to do a pmb, but if there is anything specific that must be said, it isn't documented

crossref
27-10-14, 10:10
But Phil, where is that written?

In the course notes given to all candidates.

That's a defunct course that was never mandatory for refs, and the course notes are not available on line.

So as a ref in England right now today, if I want to look up what MUST be said this season at a pmb, if anything, where would I look? The answer is I can't, it's completely undocumented.

colesy
27-10-14, 10:10
That's a defunct course that was never mandatory for refs, and the course notes are not available on line.

So as a ref in England right now today, if I want to look up what MUST be said this season at a pmb, if anything, where would I look? The answer is I can't, it's completely undocumented.

Unless there's an RFU regulation that permits a deviation from the IRB's take on things, then perhaps the IRB's guidance trumps everything. Taken from Rugby Refereeing in Practice (albeit 2004) in the section headed BRIEFING TEAMS AND INSPECTION OF BOOTS: "Scrum engagement. Remind the teams of the “Engagement” sequence and that the ball won’t be allowed into the scrum until the scrum is steady and square, to ensure the safety of the players in the scrum."

Pegleg
27-10-14, 10:10
Interesting. It would be worth it knowing id the IRB had amended that document and If any dispensation has been given to ignore a governing body document in this respect. Also does it say that the briefing is mandatory?

- - - Updated - - -

I have it somewhere so will look it up later but just wondering if you know.

Browner
27-10-14, 10:10
Unless there's an RFU regulation that permits a deviation from the IRB's take on things, then perhaps the IRB's guidance trumps everything. Taken from Rugby Refereeing in Practice (albeit 2004) in the section headed BRIEFING TEAMS AND INSPECTION OF BOOTS: "Scrum engagement. Remind the teams of the “Engagement” sequence and that the ball won’t be allowed into the scrum until the scrum is steady and square, to ensure the safety of the players in the scrum."

Link?

colesy
27-10-14, 11:10
Link?

Link here (http://www.irb.com/mm/document/training/0/rugbyrefinpractice_426.pdf)

colesy
27-10-14, 11:10
Also does it say that the briefing is mandatory?

I don't see the words "mandatory" anywhere. However, the document certainly seems to expect a briefing to be carried out.

As with the other posters, I've not seen it in writing from the RFU except in the ELRA 1 and 2 documents. It's certainly something we are reminded about when discussing the scrum at Society meetings.

Phil E
27-10-14, 12:10
That's a defunct course that was never mandatory for refs, and the course notes are not available on line.

So as a ref in England right now today, if I want to look up what MUST be said this season at a pmb, if anything, where would I look? The answer is I can't, it's completely undocumented.

It's the same in the new course. It hasn't changed.
If you want to see the documentation.....sign up for the new course.

SimonSmith
27-10-14, 13:10
Even if it isn't mandatory, it's still important/useful.

1. It does help set safety front and center of scrummaging.
2. It's a chance to 'sell' yourself and your style to the players - build a dynamic of sorts with them
3. A chance to get an observation of them. I knew going into the first scrum what my challenges would be, because I could see that one FR was going to be engaging significantly lower than the bigger and fatter opposition. I knew what to look for and to manage then.

I see very little downside to a FR PMB, and lots of upside.

ChrisR
27-10-14, 14:10
This thread has drifted far away from the OP. I have some empathy for Rushforth and the "former international coach" referenced in his first post who, I suspect, was inferring to Rushforth that his front row didn't need to hear another repeat of the engagement sequence.

However, I believe that a FR PMB is important for some of the reasons stated by Simon (above).

For that reason I'm starting a new thread on the subject so this thread can return to its original life.