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Na Madrai
26-10-14, 09:10
Level 8 league match.

Approximately thirty minutes into the match, home team second row damages shoulder attempting a tackle. After quite a long period of attention, match resumes. However, on four further occasions, physio is on the pitch attending this player for this injury, for increasingly longer periods of time.

Eventually, with the score standing at 5 - 3 and nine minutes left on the clock, down he goes again for the sixth time following an innocuous colision. This time, I inform his skipper that his match is over and that he be replaced. Skipper asks the player who confirms that he will play on. The physio states that in her opinion, player can play on. I turn to skipper and state that this is not a matter for debate, his match is over, he can be substituted or sent off. Player is substituted, match finishes 13 - 3 with a length of the field try in the closing seconds.

In the bar, I had a very mixed reception. The majority, including the second team's referee, thought that I had overstepped my responsibility but a surprising number agreed with my decision. Visiting skipper thought that his opposite number should have replaced the player long before - 'we all have to go to work on Monday!'

So, does a referee have the authority to force the removal of a player through injury other than in a case of concussion?

NM

Accylad
26-10-14, 10:10
Never been faced with this but I don't believe you do.

My approach would have been (after the first reasonably extensive treatment) to have played on while the player was being treated. This would encourage interchanges while he was treated.

Adam
26-10-14, 10:10
The only reason I think you can is if a player has been interchanged twice for injuries, then he can't return.

The Fat
26-10-14, 10:10
At our level, the ref has the authority to stop a player from taking any further part in the game due to injury under Law 3.9

3.9 The referee’s power to stop an injured player from continuing

If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order an injured player to leave the field in order to be medically examined.

Simon Thomas
26-10-14, 10:10
In a L8 League match I think you exceeded your authority, manage it with to the book injury time off.

Phil E
26-10-14, 10:10
As the length of the injury stops got longer, stop the clock each time.
They only have a minute to treat the player, so after the minute they have to interchange him to carry on the treatment on the sidelines.
As has been mentioned, if he then gets interchanged for an injury a second time, he can't come back on.

Game speeds up, the regulations have been followed.

Browner
26-10-14, 11:10
Even if via interchanges is the best way to handle that scenario, why doesn't 3.9 give NM the authority... IF he's concerned for the wellbeing of the player?

Rushforth
26-10-14, 16:10
Even if via interchanges is the best way to handle that scenario, why doesn't 3.9 give NM the authority... IF he's concerned for the wellbeing of the player?

Surely that's precisely the reason for 3.9?

Everybody is on adreniline - including the referee - and players can't be trusted to make the right decision in cases of suspected concussion.

We don't have interchanges here (formally at least, rolling subs are by consent at lower levels), but if the regulation improves on the law, so much the better, and perhaps we should look at them, at least at the lower levels.

Pegleg
26-10-14, 19:10
The only reason I think you can is if a player has been interchanged twice for injuries, then he can't return.


Justification? Law 3.9 seems not to agree with you.

Pegleg
26-10-14, 19:10
Surely that's precisely the reason for 3.9?

Everybody is on adreniline - including the referee - and players can't be trusted to make the right decision in cases of suspected concussion.

We don't have interchanges here (formally at least, rolling subs are by consent at lower levels), but if the regulation improves on the law, so much the better, and perhaps we should look at them, at least at the lower levels.

This does not seem to be a concussion issue but I agree that, surely Law 3.9 give the ref full authority to act as the OP did.

Can Phil, Simon or Adam quote (link) the regulation that overrides the laws of the game?

OB..
26-10-14, 20:10
In a L8 League match I think you exceeded your authority, manage it with to the book injury time off.I don't really see why.

I think I have mentioned before a match where a player was knocked-out, but the team tried to put him back on some half an hour later. The referee refused to allow it. This was level 8, and I supported the referee's decision under 3.9.

Phil E
26-10-14, 20:10
Can Phil, Simon or Adam quote (link) the regulation that overrides the laws of the game?

For RFU land, regulation 13, appendix 2

22. Not more than two Player Interchanges per team may occur at any one time and may only occur during a stoppage in play and with the knowledge of the Referee who is entitled in his sole opinion to refuse to allow or postpone a Player Interchange if he believes either that the Player Interchange would prevent the opposition from restarting the game quickly or where a Player has been injured or that it would not be safe for the replacement Player who has been previously injured to play in the match.

25. A Player who suffers two injuries in a match which has necessitated that Player being replaced on each occasion is not permitted to act as a replacement following the second injury.

Blackberry
26-10-14, 20:10
OB, Simon was referring to this particular context / the scenario described.

Edit@ though I completely agree with OB's point that we have a complete veto and I have used it before.

Simon Thomas
26-10-14, 21:10
I don't really see why.

I think I have mentioned before a match where a player was knocked-out, but the team tried to put him back on some half an hour later. The referee refused to allow it. This was level 8, and I supported the referee's decision under 3.9.

As indeed I would OB in the case of concussion which has very clear RFU guidelines to follow.
In the case in the OP with a persistent shoulder it is a management issue in my view, and could have been dealt with through use of the down time time off of 2 minutes, and getting the player off the pitch, or playing on until a scrum was required, as long as play was near the player/physio.

Simon Thomas
26-10-14, 21:10
Pegleg - in the RFU Regs, regulation 13 I think.

Blackberry
26-10-14, 21:10
Pegleg, its in the RFU regs, no 13

ctrainor
26-10-14, 22:10
I think you were absolutely right to ask for him to be replaced. Well done. I would have been tempted to play on the third time this player was being attended to for the same injury. I'm sure he would have been replaced then anyway. i had a team yesterday who seemed to pick up injuries when under pressure. First time I said we are playing on there was a miraculous recovery! I even heard one guy say to a team mate take a knee. In this instance the player had taken a knock and was admirably trying to get up to play on so I was happy to stop play for attention but informed the skipper I dont want to here that call again!

RobLev
27-10-14, 00:10
Pegleg, its in the RFU regs, no 13

Does Reg 13 App 2 para 22/23 over-rule Law 3.9, or simply give the referee another power to prevent a player continuing?

Phil E
27-10-14, 00:10
[QUOTE=RobLev;284626]Does Reg 13 App 2 para 22/23 over-rule Law 3.9, or simply give the referee another power to prevent a player continuing?

Well I'm not a lawyer, what do you think?



All matches played under the jurisdiction of the RFU and/or in RFU Competitions or any other competition or merit table must be played in accordance with the IRB Laws, IRB Regulations, the RFU Rules, the RFU Regulations and any competition specific Regulations applicable to a competition including, All matches played under the jurisdiction of the RFU and/or in RFU Competitions or any other competition or merit table must be played in accordance with the IRB Laws, IRB Regulations, the RFU Rules, the RFU Regulations and any competition specific All matches played under the jurisdiction of the RFU and/or in RFU Competitions or any other competition or merit table must be played in accordance with the IRB Laws, IRB Regulations, the RFU Rules, the RFU Regulations and any competition specific Regulations applicable to a competition including, without limitation, the Premiership Regulations, Championship Regulations, Anglo-Welsh Cup Regulations and British & Irish Cup Regulations (as applicable).
In matches where rolling substitutions and/or the man-off rule are permitted, the Regulations set out in Appendix 2 of RFU Regulation 13 will apply.


to set regulations for inclusion in non-RFU competitions and to amend non-RFU competition regulations if contrary to RFU Regulations or the IRB Laws of the Game (and any such variations or Law trials as may be adopted by the RFU).


All matches played under the jurisdiction of the RFU and/or in RFU Competitions or any other competition or merit table must be played in accordance with the IRB Laws, IRB Regulations, the RFU Rules, the RFU Regulations and any competition specific Regulations applicable to a competition including, without limitation, the Premiership Regulations, Championship Regulations, Anglo-Welsh Cup Regulations and British & Irish Cup Regulations (as applicable).

There's more, this is just what i picked out after a quick perusal of regulation 13.

Pegleg
27-10-14, 00:10
For RFU land, regulation 13, appendix 2

22. Not more than two Player Interchanges per team may occur at any one time and may only occur during a stoppage in play and with the knowledge of the Referee who is entitled in his sole opinion to refuse to allow or postpone a Player Interchange if he believes either that the Player Interchange would prevent the opposition from restarting the game quickly or where a Player has been injured or that it would not be safe for the replacement Player who has been previously injured to play in the match.
25. A Player who suffers two injuries in a match which has necessitated that Player being replaced on each occasion is not permitted to act as a replacement following the second injury.

3.9 THE REFEREE’S POWER TO STOP AN INJURED PLAYER FROM
CONTINUING
If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified
person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may
order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order an injured player to
leave the field in order to be medically examined.

So both say that the referee can refuse to allow an injured player (whatever the injury) to stay / return to the game. So whilst the regulations allow up to 2 interchanges for an injury. That is a MAXIMUM that the referee can overrule.

This confirms, for me that the OP was correct in his actions.

RobLev
27-10-14, 01:10
[QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Well I'm not a lawyer, what do you think?

I read it as an additional power introduced to bring some order to rolling substitutions. Which means of course that the ref in the OP was well within his powers.

matty1194
27-10-14, 01:10
In answer to the OP I would of allowed the physio to deal with the initial injury and of stopped the clock for them to allowe time to deal with it, on subsequent occasions as long as they were not in the way of play then a big shout of "play on - he is not in the way" would of followed. Team would soon of decided if it was worth keeping him on seeing as they wernt getting their rest whilst he was being treated.

If the physio wants to deal with that player on the pitch out of the way of play then so be it.

Browner
27-10-14, 06:10
I thought from the outset of this thread that i could/would easily give a ' must leave pitch' where a player repeatedly is going down with same injury for progressively longer ..

Well done NM, bravado or peer\coach pressure can seriously compromise an injured player.

Pegleg
27-10-14, 08:10
I thought from the outset of this thread that i could/would easily give a ' must leave pitch' where a player repeatedly is going down with same injury for progressively longer ..

Well done NM, bravado or peer\coach pressure can seriously compromise an injured player.

Totally agree with this comment. The law give the ref total power to prevent a player from continuing if he (the ref) is concerned about any aspect of injury be it concussion or otherwise. The regulation that was given clearly supports the ultimate authority of the referee. I'm surprised that Simon posts: "In a L8 League match I think you exceeded your authority, manage it with to the book injury time off." Which, for me flies in the face of both Law 3.9 and regulation 13 namely:

regulation 13, appendix 2

22. Not more than two Player Interchanges per team may occur at any one time and may only occur during a stoppage in play and with the knowledge of the Referee who is entitled in his sole opinion to refuse to allow or postpone a Player Interchange if he believes either that the Player Interchange would prevent the opposition from restarting the game quickly or where a Player has been injured or that it would not be safe for the replacement Player who has been previously injured to play in the match.
25. A Player who suffers two injuries in a match which has necessitated that Player being replaced on each occasion is not permitted to act as a replacement following the second injury.

Law 3.9 THE REFEREE’S POWER TO STOP AN INJURED PLAYER FROM
CONTINUING
If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified
person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may
order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order an injured player to
leave the field in order to be medically examined.


It's the ref's call. He used his sole power to stop an injured player continuing as per both Regulation and Law (whichever one trumps the other). He saw the state of the player and made a call. Can those of us that did not see the player's condition really state that we think the OP exceeded his authority with out a little more evidence?

Ronald
27-10-14, 09:10
Agree 100% Peg, if I feel a player should not continue, whether u/14 school game or a 1st league club u/21 team, I will order the player off. I earlier commented on another thread about the physio abuse that even if both teams we ref have their own physio, we always have trained medics organised by the home team at each game. If these medics tell me a player should leave the field, he is gone. To me player safety is paramount, and I have in the past stopped the game and called the medics onto the field if I was unsure about a player's condition, even if he told me he was fine.

Dixie
27-10-14, 14:10
3.9 THE REFEREE’S POWER TO STOP AN INJURED PLAYER FROM
CONTINUING
If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified
person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may
order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order an injured player to
leave the field in order to be medically examined.

So both say that the referee can refuse to allow an injured player (whatever the injury) to stay / return to the game. So whilst the regulations allow up to 2 interchanges for an injury. That is a MAXIMUM that the referee can overrule.

This confirms, for me that the OP was correct in his actions. Seconded

Na Madrai
28-10-14, 10:10
Whilst out having a quiet drink last night, I was joined by a member of the Society's committee. Off the record, the club concerned have made an unofficial complaint about this decision - had they not won the match, it would be formal and they would be seeking a replay! In the meantime they have requested that I not be appointed to any more of their matches.

T'will be interesting to see the response, not that I will ever be so informed, of course!!!!!!

NM

Simon Thomas
28-10-14, 11:10
I stand by my earlier comment.

In this case, as described in the OP, there were alternative management options and I do not agree the need to go to a forced confrontational decision to force the player off. As some suggest above, if it had been a youth match or a concussion for any age, it would be a different set of circumstances entirely.

I am fully aware of both 3.9 and Regulation 13, and agree with much said above by the various posters. However L3.9 and R13 are a framework within which referees operate, not a prescriptive process - each referee uses their experience and judgement to make the best decision for the scenario in front of them at the time.

Although happy to discuss such decisions & nuances here on a referee forum, or internally in Committee or with the referee, I (and the rest of our Committee) would back up one of our members, in most situations like this, unless the decision made is clearly wrong (e.g. retaining uncontested scrums after a blood injury or YC FR returns; allowing a YC to be replaced [except in County Youth matches !])

crossref
28-10-14, 13:10
Whilst out having a quiet drink last night, I was joined by a member of the Society's committee. Off the record, the club concerned have made an unofficial complaint about this decision - had they not won the match, it would be formal and they would be seeking a replay! In the meantime they have requested that I not be appointed to any more of their matches.

T'will be interesting to see the response, not that I will ever be so informed, of course!!!!!!

NM

Gosh Na, yet another complaint?
you do generate an awful lot of complaints against you. At least the police werent called this time :wink:

OB..
28-10-14, 20:10
In a L8 League match I think you exceeded your authority, manage it with to the book injury time off.


I stand by my earlier comment.

In this case, as described in the OP, there were alternative management options and I do not agree the need to go to a forced confrontational decision to force the player off. As some suggest above, if it had been a youth match or a concussion for any age, it would be a different set of circumstances entirely.I read this as disagreeing with his judgement/management rather than arguing that he does not have the authority to enforce his view.

Simon Thomas
28-10-14, 21:10
I read this as disagreeing with his judgement/management rather than arguing that he does not have the authority to enforce his view.

Fair call OB you can interpret it that way I suppose.

Browner
08-03-15, 16:03
Re:

They only have a minute to treat the player, so after the minute they have to interchange him to carry on the treatment on the sidelines.


I yesterdays game L8, several players needing attention during the match at various times as normal. On field physio Treatment often occurring as game continues.

Then, in one incident we get to break in play & i observe the injured player being treated. As 'one minute' is approaching I inform the capt that " if your player cant continue then you need to interchange now"

Then a protracted debate amongst the same teams physio, manager, coach , capt + any other player with an opinion (!) Over whether the referee is being unreasonable or exceeding his authority, add in much apparent confusion and the replacements not discarding tracksuits etc and the whole incident seems to drag on much longer than allowing Mr Injured a bit more time to be treated.....!!!!

All in all I felt 'uneasy' as my insistence was being resisted( challenged) , so does anyone have with various any tips on how to best deal with this scenario to get a 'winning accepted' outcome

How to hasten
What to do if participants don't comply with requests
Time
Sanctions ????
Etc ....

winchesterref
08-03-15, 16:03
Just play on if they won't change them?