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Taffy
30-10-14, 22:10
I was an appointed AR on Wednesday. 20 minutes in, innocuous tackle into touch by red on green right in front of me. Pushing and pulling, I tell them to stop it. Some players on the field have now started rather large handbags and it is all kicking off. I am close by and am just watching things, trying to see what is going on. The referee (level 7) blows his whistle three times and then just stands back calmly watching and writing down.

I was amazed.

At his calmness. And his professionalism. And his ability to be so focused.

I know that blowing the whistle should stop it. I also know it doesn't always. My concern (and here comes the question) has always been that if it goes on and on and develops involving everyone, there is a danger of an abandoned match and that it will seem as if I HAVE LOST CONTROL OF THE MATCH.
And that is always why I have been so concerned to stop it.

I see the sense in not getting in there and keeping the distance, but is my concern about an abandonment unfounded, because actually I thought it was a great way to be in control and let it all fizzle out. I absolutely see the need to keep your distance, but what do other people think and have they had games abandoned because of this?
It ended in 2 red cards which he had spotted and I had not, so perhaps that is half way towards being an answer........

Rushforth
30-10-14, 22:10
But you kept out completely too. The RCs he called were based on what he saw - and calmly noted - and you did your job of telling them to stop, but otherwise keeping out of it.

I had the inverted scenario as AR last season (ref missed it completely), but I also miss things completely.

Also, trust me, if you feel like you have lost control of the match, it is almost certainly not your fault, but rather players not wanting to play. If you feel abandoning is appropriate, that is always your call. But don't do so because of handbags, is all I'm saying.

OB..
30-10-14, 23:10
Exactly how do you think you could stop it other than by blowing your whistle?

Keeping out is essential. If you get involved eg in trying to pull players apart, you will simply get sucked in. If you are AR, it will make the referee's life more difficult; if you are the referee it will make yours impossible.

You saw how it was done: blow the whistle hard a few times while observing and making notes. When it calms down, decide what cards you are going to give.

Simon Thomas
30-10-14, 23:10
I was an appointed AR on Wednesday. 20 minutes in, innocuous tackle into touch by red on green right in front of me. Pushing and pulling, I tell them to stop it. Some players on the field have now started rather large handbags and it is all kicking off. I am close by and am just watching things, trying to see what is going on. The referee (level 7) blows his whistle three times and then just stands back calmly watching and writing down.

I was amazed.

At his calmness. And his professionalism. And his ability to be so focused.

I know that blowing the whistle should stop it. I also know it doesn't always. My concern (and here comes the question) has always been that if it goes on and on and develops involving everyone, there is a danger of an abandoned match and that it will seem as if I HAVE LOST CONTROL OF THE MATCH.
And that is always why I have been so concerned to stop it.

I see the sense in not getting in there and keeping the distance, but is my concern about an abandonment unfounded, because actually I thought it was a great way to be in control and let it all fizzle out. I absolutely see the need to keep your distance, but what do other people think and have they had games abandoned because of this?
It ended in 2 red cards which he had spotted and I had not, so perhaps that is half way towards being an answer........

Exactly what I would expect from any Level 7 referee. Good process and practice by him.

You must stop thinking you are to blame for things - players offend, players commit foul play, players punch - you identify material or dangerous situations and try to use prventetive management.

Never ever get involved, blow your whistle, adopt a dominant but detached distance and body shape, then stand back and watch, note, and identify the active players.

Try to curb making any confrontational actions or verbals.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
30-10-14, 23:10
OB..'s post and your own observations are spot on.

Blow your whistle a few times (not too much) and move wide enough to see main culprits and any runners in (usually sly cheap shot merchants wearing 15). Get the main two? who started it and keep the colours and numbers in your head (say blue #2, gold #4 over and over) and get the card sorted in your mind - might only be a YC each.

When (if) it stops get at least 20m between the teams. Call out colours and numbers you remembered earlier and the captains and issue whatever cards you settled on. Remember if you go with RC then note time and half and score. Position on field and events leading to the incident.

It may help to actually look at a sending off form to see the sort of stuff you need to note. Believe it or not I've sent off a player and forgotten to take his name - I got it of the team card and confirmed it later but it's not an ideal way of doing it. :redface:

TheBFG
31-10-14, 10:10
I get a bit of banter from fellow refs about RC's (they think I give too many, I don't!), my response..... "I don't give RC, players do, I just confirm them!"

Back to OP, As AR yep stand back watch for players running in and see what they do, if they come in and start dragging players out, no biggy, however if they run in and start throwing punches that's a different matter!

Simon Thomas
31-10-14, 12:10
I get a bit of banter from fellow refs about RC's (they think I give too many, ?........

And don't forget the Match Observer banter too :biggrin: 7th December 2013 at Havant.
28 PKs and 2 YCs - earlier escalation I recall was suggested.

Browner
31-10-14, 14:10
And don't forget the Match Observer banter too :biggrin: 7th December 2013 at Havant.
28 PKs and 2 YCs - earlier escalation I recall was suggested.

Banter aside, I'd expect prior consent to the publication of 'any' portion of my assessment match stats.
Just saying , On the off chance you ever assess me Simon.

On a separate note, my last quarterly Pk/FK numbers showed 8,4,4,2 (x1 YC, late tackle) ... Assessor comment was that "players seemed to respond to your pre-emptive management and expectations.

Q? Is there an optimum ....no#/ match pattern ???? , accepting that players are amost ' duty bound' to test the acceptability boundary and play on the edge ? Ie... I presume that matches with <8 are rare??

Dickie E
31-10-14, 21:10
Taffy, did the ref take a report from you? If so, what did you tell him?

Simon Thomas
31-10-14, 22:10
Banter aside, I'd expect prior consent to the publication of 'any' portion of my assessment match stats.
Just saying , On the off chance you ever assess me Simon.?

PK number and YCs were public domain info in the club's website match report and nothing to do with the private Match de-brief and referee report.

To be fair earlier escalation was mentioned in private and should not have posted on here without BFG's permission - apologies.

I will never assess you Browner as I am a Match Observer and Referee Coach - I am there to support referee development, not make an assessment of competence.

Browner
01-11-14, 00:11
PK number and YCs were public domain info in the club's website match report and nothing to do with the private Match de-brief and referee report.

To be fair earlier escalation was mentioned in private and should not have posted on here without BFG's permission - apologies.

I will never assess you Browner as I am a Match Observer and Referee Coach - I am there to support referee development, not make an assessment of competence.

Fair comment.
Sounds like an interesting match, final kick to win etc ......http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/havantrfc/s/match-centre-4839/1-762181

PS...can't see any PK/FK stats though ..

Taffy
01-11-14, 08:11
Taffy, did the ref take a report from you? If so, what did you tell him?


Ref came across when it all eventually fizzled out and asked what I had. Regretfully I was probably too close to see anything (lesson learned here). He told me he had a direct punch to a head by green and a swinging kick by red and asked me for a recommendation. 2 reds I said. We agreed. But a big lesson learned as I do reckon that if I had been further away and more detached I would have seen more.

Pegleg
01-11-14, 09:11
Ref came across when it all eventually fizzled out and asked what I had. Regretfully I was probably too close to see anything (lesson learned here). He told me he had a direct punch to a head by green and a swinging kick by red and asked me for a recommendation. 2 reds I said. We agreed. But a big lesson learned as I do reckon that if I had been further away and more detached I would have seen more.


Why is he asking you for a recommendation on something you did not see? That's poor in my book. I have said I can't recommend because I did not see it.

Now you must to write a report for the DC and justify your recommendation. That's asking for trouble in my opinion.

Phil E
01-11-14, 10:11
Why is he asking you for a recommendation on something you did not see? That's poor in my book. I have said I can't recommend because I did not see it.

Now you must to write a report for the DC and justify your recommendation. That's asking for trouble in my opinion.

I suspect the ref was asking Taffy for his recommendations as a learning exercise. With a junior AR it's always valuable to go over things like this, so the AR can see what you are thinking and be assured that had it been him, he would have come to the same conclusion.

Of course Taffy wouldn't need to write the reports. The ref saw it and the ref issued the cards and the ref us writing the reports.

Pegleg
01-11-14, 11:11
Sorry, but that is not how it came over. I'd also disagree with carrying out a "learning process" in that situation. Discuss the junior ARs thoughts after the game by all means. but he asked for a recommendation at the time. That is not right. As soon as the referee refers to "asking for a recommendation from the AR" The AR has to be brought in to the disciplinary process.

If I was the ref in that situation the conversation would be something like:

REF: "This I what I have: I've seen a direct punch to a head by green 4 and a swinging kick by red 5. Do you have anything to add?"

AR: "No I missed it all, too close to take it in."

REF: " OK. I am going for red cards to both G4 & R5 and a strong word with both captains. Perhaps we can discuss the incident over a beer later."

Then in the Clubhouse or wherever you can discuss the AR's approach to the incident positioning etc. and the learning process can take place in the correct environment.

Pegleg
01-11-14, 11:11
The other point is, how could he "come to the same conclusion" on an incident he did not see? He can agree on the outcome based on the refs version only.

On the wording yes he may agree. But had Taffy seen the incident he may have a totally different take on both the punch (more like a push) and the kick many not have been "swinging" in his eyes.

Pegleg
02-11-14, 13:11
Discussed this with my assessor yesterday. He was of concurred with my view of the incident. Sadly he did not agree with my opinion of my fitness levels.