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Taffy
06-11-14, 08:11
This from yesterday. Last minute. Red pushing hard for a win, they are two points behind so a penalty would probably win it for them.

Blue knocks on, I play advantage, red gathers and goes forward about one metre, now about twenty metres out. All ok at this breakdown, I am still playing advantage. They crab across the field, I am still playing advantage and at this next breakdown Blue have hands in to the ruck. I blow for no advantage and come back to the scrum but as I am coming back realise that the penalty offence is higher than the knock on.

The scrum took place, no one queried anything, but am I right in saying I could have played "new advantage" from the ruck offence?

When the "new offence" took place I had not called advantage over.

So much to learn isn't there?

:wales:

Ronald
06-11-14, 08:11
Yes, you could have played a new advantage for the hands in the ruck, and if none accrued, give the penalty.

8.5 MORE THAN ONE INFRINGEMENT
(a) When there is more than one infringement by the same team:
If advantage cannot be played or does not accrue to the second offence, the referee
applies the appropriate sanction to the offence which is most advantageous to the nonoffending
team.

crossref
06-11-14, 09:11
Ronald is quite right, if you are playing knock-on advantage to red, and blue commit a PK offence you should award the PK to red

BUT it sounds to me that you had let advantage go on too long?


Blue knocks on, I play advantage, red gathers and goes forward about one metre, now about twenty metres out.
All ok at this breakdown, I am still playing advantage.
They crab across the field, I am still playing advantage
and at this next breakdown

you wouldn't normally have a knock on advantage extending over two subsequent breakdowns, unless perhaps they were very close indeed to the try line...

TheBFG
06-11-14, 09:11
why not? end of the game, pushing for the win, they're still in possession, they've gained no territorial or tactical advantage crack on!

crossref
06-11-14, 09:11
why not? end of the game, pushing for the win, they're still in possession, they've gained no territorial or tactical advantage crack on!

time!
go on too long playing pointless advantage, and then when you finally decide advantage is over time has expired and it's the end of the game...

advantage is about gaining advantage, not being put at a disadvantage and slowly regaining ground

TheBFG
06-11-14, 10:11
But, red gathers and goes forward about one metre, now about twenty metres out. All ok at this breakdown, I am still playing advantage. They crab across the field, I am still playing advantage and at this next breakdown Blue have hands in to the ruck can have taken 5-10 seconds, loads of time left. Had it not been for the "brain fart" on Taffy's part the PK (advantage, which he probably should have played) they needed; had been gained. Good use of advantage on the part of the ref, just a shame he came back for the scrum :wink:

crossref
06-11-14, 10:11
well if had all taken place in 5-10 seconds I would agree, but I imagined it as longer -- it sounds longer to me.
Let's ask Taffy --

@Taffy -- you said


Blue knocks on, I play advantage, red gathers and goes forward about one metre, now about twenty metres out. All ok at this breakdown, I am still playing advantage. They crab across the field, I am still playing advantage and at this next breakdown Blue have hands in to the ruck. I blow

how long between the knock on and the whistle?

TheBFG
06-11-14, 10:11
however much time it took makes no difference, it was a good advantage to play as they got the PK they needed, just a shame he came back for the scrum!

crossref
06-11-14, 10:11
however much time it took makes no difference, it was a good advantage to play as they got the PK they needed, just a shame he came back for the scrum!

however much ?
I don't agree with that. If, say, three minutes had elapsed since the knock on, and red were still behind the gain line, and the ref is still playing advantage, waiting for red to gain one .... then ref would be playing too long an advantage.
If they finally get an advantage in the fourth minute that wouldn't make the ref right after all.


(obviously I am not suggesting that Taffy was holding on for three minutes)

Ronald
06-11-14, 11:11
This advantage law always causes issues! I reffed the 1st league 3rd team finals earlier this season here in Johannesburg, and the one thing my coach hammered me on was advantage...letting it go for too long. He said that especially for a scrum advantage, if the team having the advantage goes backwards or sideways, blow the whistle. I pointed out that advantage can be territorial OR tactical, but, although he agreed, he said that 90% of the time teams want a territorial advantage. I'm still not sure about this, maybe we can have some thoughts? My concern is that in my u/19 semi the previous week, the one team had a potent back line, and scored after having gone back about 10 meters after the opposition's knock on!

crossref
06-11-14, 11:11
the best way for the team to make use of their potent back line might well be to have the scrum, with all the oppo forwards bound in out of the way and the oppo backs 5m back..

there's no right or wrong answer, is there.
I would say that -generally - if there is
-a knock on
- a subsequent tackle and ruck
- ball comes out
- ball is moved 20m sideways
- another tackle and ruck

and you are still behind the original gain line, and still playig advantage then sounds like advantage has gone on too long. Probably.

Taffy
06-11-14, 11:11
well if had all taken place in 5-10 seconds I would agree, but I imagined it as longer -- it sounds longer to me.
Let's ask Taffy --

@Taffy -- you said



how long between the knock on and the whistle?

Now you're asking! Probably about 20 seconds. As it happened, they won the resulting scrum, ran forward and scored the winning try, but I was aware at the back of my mind that I should have awarded the penalty kick. Think it is going to be one of those mistakes you need to make in a match to get it right next time.

My call on advantage is to take into account everything that is going on and the context of the game moment. It would have been great if they had used their advantage and scored from it, but this was not to be. I do use advantage a lot and play it longer than most people (I am told by my assessors) and have had about five tries scored this season from it. The thing that is always running through my head is "If I was the skipper in possession would I rather carry on or come back?" Picked up that comment from a book somewhere, that's helped me a lot.

Adam
06-11-14, 11:11
In Australia when I was there, the mantra that was around was "don't play advantage to a team under pressure".

Bunniksider
06-11-14, 12:11
What if the team with advantage have been getting mullered in the scrums. How would that affect your interpretation of advantage gained or not?

crossref
06-11-14, 13:11
What if the team with advantage have been getting mullered in the scrums. How would that affect your interpretation of advantage gained or not?

it means that you pay less attnetion to territory and more to tactical (having possession)
So if they have clean possession, but 10m back, that might be preferable to a scrum, even given the loss of 10m. Advantage over.

I don't think it should make much difference to how long you let the game proceed looking for an advantage that isn't there yet.

TheBFG
06-11-14, 13:11
20 secs is not an unreasonable amount of time to play advantage, unless you're going back at a rate of knots, which they weren't! Therefore Taffy (IMHO) DIDN'T play advantage for too long :wink:

viper492
07-11-14, 00:11
In Australia when I was there, the mantra that was around was "don't play advantage to a team under pressure".

It still is - In my last assessment I was told something along those lines. Ball had just been knocked on, played an advantage where I probably shouldn't have and the bloke picking up the knock on (from the team that advantage was being played to) got hammered in the tackle...

Dickie E
07-11-14, 01:11
What if the team with advantage have been getting mullered in the scrums. How would that affect your interpretation of advantage gained or not?

it would not be relevant at all to me. I will play advantage until the non-offending are in a position equivalent to a scrum win. If they can't win a scrum, then, as they say in the classics, tough titties.

Dickie E
07-11-14, 02:11
It still is - In my last assessment I was told something along those lines. Ball had just been knocked on, played an advantage where I probably shouldn't have and the bloke picking up the knock on (from the team that advantage was being played to) got hammered in the tackle...

That is why the astute referee (ie me) will always avoid saying "Blue knock-on, advantage Red" in one breath. It should be "Blue knock-on" then wait a beat to see if there is any prospect of advantage. If no, whistle. If yes, "advantage Red"

Ronald
07-11-14, 07:11
Adam's words sounds so much better than my long explanation, but boils down to the same thing...no advantage to team under pressure...my convoluted version is what happens when English happens to be the coach and the ref's second language!

viper492
14-11-14, 04:11
That is why the astute referee (ie me) will always avoid saying "Blue knock-on, advantage Red" in one breath. It should be "Blue knock-on" then wait a beat to see if there is any prospect of advantage. If no, whistle. If yes, "advantage Red"

There we go - thank you for the advice - I will apply that one next season :)

Phil E
14-11-14, 10:11
Adam's words sounds so much better than my long explanation, but boils down to the same thing...no advantage to team under pressure...my convoluted version is what happens when English happens to be the coach and the ref's second language!

The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain advantage is not enough.
If the non-offending team does not gain an advantage, the referee blows the whistle and
brings play back to the place of infringement.