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Phil E
17-11-14, 16:11
Was a YC the correct decision, and should both 11 and 13 have been carded?

Follow this link and look at the Tigers v Sarries match.

Tigers v Sarries (http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/LatestVideos?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=site&utm_campaign=dropdown)

About 1230 on the slider.

didds
17-11-14, 16:11
YC for GREEN 2 for twisting his team mate over the horizontal and dumping him. The two white players were trying to keep the green ball carrier UP and SAFE until green 2 intervened.

13 white was not the reason the green player went through the horizontal and then got dumped at all.

didds

oldman
17-11-14, 17:11
didds,
Try selling that one!

TheBFG
17-11-14, 17:11
can only see the Wasps v LW game?

Phil E
17-11-14, 17:11
can only see the Wasps v LW game?

Scroll down a bit, click on the Leicester game, and it replaces the wasps game in the video window.

didds
17-11-14, 17:11
look undrneath the wasps game, the sarries game is there.

Meanwhile - the reason why green got dumped is because green 2 twisted him and drove it to ground. White 13 was driving - but straight. White 11 is clearly trying to carry green BC into touch. Neither white player is the reason why green BC hit the deck, and white 11 ebn looks like he reaklly trying not to do so. Green 2 is the reason it all hit the deck.

I understand that selling a YC to Green for completeing the dump tackle is hard... but he is the major contributor to tipping past the horizontal, if not frankly the only one.

didds

viper492
19-11-14, 13:11
Didds, isn't the responsibility on the men lifting to bring the tackled player down safely? That's always been my interpretation of the law (whether that is right or wrong).

I think personally it was quite dangerous to carry the player like they did in the first place and only destined to end poorly. I think probably that a warning to the players and a penalty would have been appropriate given the actions of 2 which caused the final situation - I don't know what the directive to these referees is but I would have said the actions of Green 2 mitigated those of White 11 and 13. At the end of the day we come to the same conclusion on 11 and 13. I believe the Green 2 shouldn't get a card - there is no penalty for dangerously tackling your own player. You could possibly do him under 10.4(m) but I still believe it to be a near impossible sell. He hasn't lifted the player, only brought him down, the twisting motion caused by the other players holding him in the air. This situation is avoided by the 11 and 13 not bringing the man into a dangerous position. Therefore I can see :yellow: for the white player who took the legs.

Edit: Spelling and slight addition

TheBFG
19-11-14, 14:11
Scroll down a bit, click on the Leicester game, and it replaces the wasps game in the video window.

Give me a little bit of credit!

when I click on the other links the screen just goes black?

Phil E
19-11-14, 15:11
Give me a little bit of credit!

when I click on the other links the screen just goes black?

What browser?
What version?

didds
19-11-14, 17:11
Didds, isn't the responsibility on the men lifting to bring the tackled player down safely? That's always been my interpretation of the law (whether that is right or wrong).

I would agree that is my understanding too :-) However, I doubt it was ever the law maker's consideration that the effective part of a tiop tackle would be implemented by a team mate, howsoever accidentally. Certainly at the time green 2 arrives, the BC hasn;t yet gone through the horizontal and white 11 is if anything clearly avoiding that. It is definitely green 2's actions that turn the BC past the horizontal and most defiitely that he is then brought cerashing to ground.

That si all compounded by the fact it is not white 13 that lifsts the BC anyway - its the white 11. Which makes white's 13's YC all the more odd in the circumatances.



there is no penalty for dangerously tackling your own player.
is there a law reference for that?


You could possibly do him under 10.4(m) but I still believe it to be a near impossible sell. He hasn't lifted the player, only brought him down, the twisting motion caused by the other players holding him in the air.

Green 2 effects the twisting motion - in the rear angle at 11:40 in the video watch his leg as a judo throw on white 11.

didds.

crossref
19-11-14, 17:11
I think that to penalise a player for foul play on his own team-mate it would need to be very clearly malicious.

For instance if a player lost it, and clearly and intentionally head butted or punched a team mate he'd have to get a RC, just as he would if he head butted a spectator or a waterboy.

I woudn't card green 2 here - but I would have a word.

SimonSmith
19-11-14, 18:11
A referee down here did just that - sent off for striking his captain. Player was pissed when I gave him three weeks.

Blue Smartie
19-11-14, 19:11
Commentators have it right for me. White 11 picks the man up to horizontal; white 11 applies the final motion on the green player's higher leg to provide the rotation through horizontal. Green 2/7 may provide a destabalising lateral effect of the tackle situation but they don't tip the player.

viper492
19-11-14, 22:11
is there a law reference for that?
I need to start keeping my law book out - I would reference the Law 15 definitions which state DEFINITIONS
A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.
A ball carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place.
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.
As you can't be a tackler, you can't effect a dangerous tackle on a player of your own side (by definition).

Although... now I look closer at it, once Green 2 joins, could it be considered a maul??? Hmmm looking at the law book just raises more and more questions...
15.2 WHEN A TACKLE CANNOT TAKE PLACEWhen the ball carrier is held by one opponent and a team-mate of the ball carrier binds on to that ball carrier, a maul has been formed and a tackle cannot take place.


Green 2 effects the twisting motion - in the rear angle at 11:40 in the video watch his leg as a judo throw on white 11.
On further inspection, I agree :) But Green 2 would not have been able to effect such a motion without the player having been brought into the air and I believe the onus still remains on White to bring the man down safely.

didds
19-11-14, 22:11
You're having a giraffe BS!! What on earth is green 2 doing then if he isn't actually bringing the whole house crashing down? having a Gentlemen's excuse-me? The player is not tipped past the horizontal until green 2 joins the fray. White 11 is obviously intent on carring the BC into touch. 13 isn't helping much at all either way and if anythung may evebn be hamperuing his own teammates attempts to get to the touch line.

If you all can't see the reason why green BC ended up on the deck was because green 2 threw white 11 over his own thigh then - WADR cos you are all nice blokes! - you REALLY need to go to specsavers. The judo throw is evident from the standard side view as well - you don't have to be sitting by the corner flag to see it.

didds

Ian_Cook
19-11-14, 23:11
Green 2 would not have been able to effect such a motion without the player having been brought into the air and I believe the onus still remains on White to bring the man down safely.

Even if Green 2 is doing his level best to prevent White bringing the player down safely, and is in fact the reason White were unable to exercise their duty of care?

This is ridiculous. Everything was under control, and Green (14?) wasn't even beyond horizontal until Green 2 came in and caused what happened next to happen, by grabbing his team-mate's legs and lifting them!

viper492
21-11-14, 12:11
Even if Green 2 is doing his level best to prevent White bringing the player down safely, and is in fact the reason White were unable to exercise their duty of care?

This is ridiculous. Everything was under control, and Green (14?) wasn't even beyond horizontal until Green 2 came in and caused what happened next to happen, by grabbing his team-mate's legs and lifting them!

I see where you're coming from, at the extremes it changes slightly - if Green 2 had, say, jumped on top of it, or... lifted the player off the ground, I would agree in that case... but once White has brought the player to what I saw as a near horizontal position, they have created the danger and need to mitigate it - Perhaps a card is harsh but none of this would be an issue if two players weren't attempting to carry a player a foot off the ground which is dangerous in itself.

OB..
21-11-14, 14:11
[...]attempting to carry a player a foot off the ground which is dangerous in itself.I don't agree.

Remember the case where Will Carling was lifted in the air, upside down, before he could ground the ball for a try? The situation has the potential to end dangerously, but that is not the same thing.

didds
21-11-14, 17:11
I see where you're coming from, at the extremes it changes slightly - if Green 2 had, say, jumped on top of it, or... lifted the player off the ground, I would agree in that case... but once White has brought the player to what I saw as a near horizontal position, they have created the danger and need to mitigate it - Perhaps a card is harsh but none of this would be an issue if two players weren't attempting to carry a player a foot off the ground which is dangerous in itself.

Time for that latin quote OB knows that i can never remember about taking extremes and seeing how that pans out...

so if white tackler lifts green BC vertically an inch off the floor ie in a standing position then green 2 lifts green BC through the horizontal and dumps the BC on on the ground head first you will penalise white tackler for lifting?

nahhhhhhhhh!


didds

SimonSmith
21-11-14, 18:11
reductio ad absurdum?

tim White
22-11-14, 10:11
Ars Gratia Arus?

didds
22-11-14, 21:11
Still waiting a reply... ��