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Taffy
10-12-14, 20:12
Meant to query this last week as I saw the defensive line standing back about 5 metres from the try line (almost on the dead ball line) and it looked odd. Today in the match, the defensive line stood on the try line which looked better, but I was concerned that I didn't know the correct distance. What's right?

matty1194
10-12-14, 21:12
Taffy, depedning on the location of the scrum then the defending team must be 5m back from the hindmost foot of their team.

Iif the scrum is awarded on the 5 m line then the closest they can then be is their own try line, in attack some times will use the depth of the in-goal area to give themselves more space to either then clear the ball or counter attack.

But at all times the distance from the hindmost foot is 5m.

crossref
10-12-14, 21:12
(g) Offside for players not in the scrum.
Players who are not in the scrum and who are not the team’s scrum half, are offside if they remain in front of their offside line or overstep the offside line which is a line parallel to the goal lines and 5 metres behind the hindmost player of each team in a scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the offside line12

(h)
If the hindmost foot of a team is on or behind that team’s goal line, the offside line for scrum halves and non-participants is the goal line.

Taffy
10-12-14, 21:12
(g) Offside for players not in the scrum.
Players who are not in the scrum and who are not the team’s scrum half, are offside if they remain in front of their offside line or overstep the offside line which is a line parallel to the goal lines and 5 metres behind the hindmost player of each team in a scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the offside line12

(h)
If the hindmost foot of a team is on or behind that team’s goal line, the offside line for scrum halves and non-participants is the goal line.

I have made a Horlicks of the question here..........I titled it a scrum but meant a lineout ............

crossref
10-12-14, 22:12
19.13 Offside lines at the lineout
(a)
When a lineout forms, there are two separate offside lines, parallel to the goal lines, for the teams.
(b) Participating players. One offside line applies to the players taking part in the lineout (usually some or all of the forwards, plus the scrum half and the player throwing in). Until the ball is thrown in, and has touched a player or the ground, this offside line is the line of touch. After that, the offside line is a line through the ball.
(c) Players not taking part. The other offside line applies to the players not taking part in the lineout (usually the backs). For them, the offside line is 10 metres behind the line of touch or their goal line, if that is nearer.

Dixie
10-12-14, 23:12
Per Crossref, quoting 20.12(h):

(h) If the hindmost foot of a team is on or behind that teamís goal line, the offside line for
scrum halves and non-participants is the goal line.

So the 5m attacking scrum is cleanly hooked by the attackers, and they get a nudge on, driving their opponents steadily backwards. The defending SH is carefully staying just behind the line of the ball, ready to pounce if the attacking 9 distributes. Just as the defensive #8's feet are 30cm over the goal line, defenders lock out and halt the drive. Attacking #8 picks up and is tackled by the defensive #9.

How many would award the PK against defensive #9 for being offside, ahead of the goal line?

menace
10-12-14, 23:12
Per Crossref, quoting 20.12(h):

(h) If the hindmost foot of a team is on or behind that team’s goal line, the offside line for
scrum halves and non-participants is the goal line.

So the 5m attacking scrum is cleanly hooked by the attackers, and they get a nudge on, driving their opponents steadily backwards. The defending SH is carefully staying just behind the line of the ball, ready to pounce if the attacking 9 distributes. Just as the defensive #8's feet are 30cm over the goal line, defenders lock out and halt the drive. Attacking #8 picks up and is tackled by the defensive #9.

How many would award the PK against defensive #9 for being offside, ahead of the goal line?

Is this a trick question?

Not me.

Assuming the SH started at the tunnel and never retreated to the hindmost foot before it was pushed back over the goal line.
As 20.12(h) directly follows (g)
Offside for players not in the scrum. Players who are not in the scrum and who are not the team’s scrum half, are offside if they remain in front of their offside line or overstep the offside line which is a line parallel to the goal lines and 5 metres behind the hindmost player of each team in a scrum.

I am of the opinion the SH is 'in' the scrum (part of the scrum pack). I'm backing this up in law because their offside is specifically dealt with in 20.12(b) AND in the definitions they are specifically mentioned as playing a role 'in' the scrum.

Do I win the prize?

Ps I wish the law lords would re number the laws such that sub items directly relative to a previous law point were more clearly shown. In reality 20.12(h) is really an extension to g and should be labelled 20.12(g.1) and indented.

crossref
10-12-14, 23:12
http://www.irblaws.com/images/laws/scrum-offside-en.jpg

If yellow have a shove on, there are two offside lines for blue scrum half - both marked

- the ball
- the blue back foot


If blue back foot crosses try line it's the second of those blue scrum-half offside lines that changes (it's now the tryline)
But I reckon the first doesn't change - and he can still stay with the ball.

Browner
11-12-14, 00:12
But I reckon the first doesn't change - sand he can still stay with the ball.

Yep, his permission to stay alongside ( but not in front of ) the ball isn't removed by the mere fact that his pack is being nudged backwards.

But here's a thought....

how often do we see either the attacking no8 ( or 9 ) score a try by scooping up the ball & diving forward/ lauching himself in a forward direction INTO (ie...past the HMF of a player still bound in) the scrum, contrary to 20.9.(d).

I bet few refs ever penalise that , but given that the opponents cant legally do anything to prevent it, should we?