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Taffy
20-12-14, 23:12
Really not sure about this. Thought about it long and hard at the time.

Last ten minutes of a really good natured match. Apart from one ten metres after about 6 minutes there had been absolutely no dissent or appealing. A great match in many ways.

Then.................Black runs out of defence, I award a penalty for a high tackle by White against Black. White centre disputed the decision with a "that wasn't high" and I push the penalty ten metres further on. He then comes up to me and puts his face right facing me and stares in a very aggressive manner. There was certainly no question that he was trying to intimidate me. I called the captain over and told him that this was dissent and that the player would be receiving a yellow card. The captain got the player to me and I explained to the player that the aggressive look was dissent and therefore he would be receiving a yellow card. The player then walked off and then turned and looked at me and said "I want to know your association and your name" and then he walked off towards the touch line. I decided that this was further dissent and called the captain over and explained that for his comments and further dissent there would be a second yellow and therefore a red.By now the player had gone to the touchline and the captain and I went over, called the player back on the pitch and issued a second yellow and then a red card. The player then said to the captain "I want to know how to appeal this" and turned to me and said "Have a fantastic day".

Silly yes, a bit of a knob yes, but too harsh? I am reminded of a senior referee who said to me a few months ago to remember that for other fellow referees "I am my brother's keeper" and I have to be fair to the ref following next week. Dissent has no place in the game, certainly I felt the aggression.

But could I or should I have done something different? My assessor on the day felt on the basis that the player was not going to come back on as there was only 9 minutes left,perhaps I could have left it at that..........that, frankly didn't feel right to me, but always up for learning.


:norc: or not?

colesy
20-12-14, 23:12
He then comes up to me and puts his face right facing me and stares in a very aggressive manner. There was certainly no question that he was trying to intimidate me.

If what you're describing here is the player putting his face right in your face, I'd be thinking red at that point.

Pinky
21-12-14, 01:12
Think you were right. Proximity to the end of the match should not be a factor unless it is indicative that you have been too lenient earlier on.

Simon Thomas
21-12-14, 01:12
How do you keep getting into these management confrontations ?

You seen to just escalate every situation to confrontations - listen to what your assessor said.

Adam
21-12-14, 01:12
Rather than walk them 10 in this situation, which would obviously annoy the hell out of them (it can come across all too often like sticking two fingers up to them), I probably would have ignored it.

Wayne Barnes wrote an article, or gage an opinion about marching players 10 which is worth a read.

Or said something like, "high tackle, safety lads" and turned a blind ear (what my coach says) with an apologetic face.

The higher I have gotten, the more likely I am to not walk players 10 metres. After having penalised you could say, to the captain "next time there may be an escalation, you need to deal with this", or one that's been recommended to me, "he's looking a bit yellow to me" (jury is still out on that for me).

This way, you don't take on all that responsibility and pressure. You have taken that situation, been empathetic in your approach, and given the captain the metaphorical pressure monkey to deal with, and more often than not no more dissent occurs and you have achieved it in a more subtle yet positive way.

You said it was a good natured match, trying the approach of a) turning a blind ear, b) not marching 10, c) pressurising the captain to sort it will enable you to get a great result without being officious and the centre of attention.

I would caveat this by saying that this comes with experience. Early on in my referee career (as with many others) any player voicing something like that would make me react in the way you did.

matty1194
21-12-14, 01:12
My BOLD


Really not sure about this. Thought about it long and hard at the time.

Last ten minutes of a really good natured match. Apart from one ten metres after about 6 minutes there had been absolutely no dissent or appealing. A great match in many ways.

Then.................Black runs out of defence, I award a penalty for a high tackle by White against Black. White centre disputed the decision with a "that wasn't high" and I push the penalty ten metres further on. He then comes up to me and puts his face right facing me and stares in a very aggressive manner. There was certainly no question that he was trying to intimidate me.

But could I or should I have done something different? ONLY YOU KNOW THAT MATE. My assessor on the day felt on the basis that the player was not going to come back on as there was only 9 minutes left,perhaps I could have left it at that..........that, frankly didn't feel right to me, but always up for learning.


:norc: or not?


How do you keep getting into these management confrontations ?

You see(m)n to just escalate every situation to confrontations - listen to what your assessor said. Also fixed that for you, otherwise the grammar police will be on your case. :biggrin:

Simon, I have to back up Taffy here, you with your numerous years of experiance and all of the "hats" you wear will surely have come across players/situations like this both when you refereed and now when you are involved in other ways and also referees who ask questions about situations in public not online.

Taffy as stated in the OP had initailly clamped down on the "chat" in the first Q aaand stated that it was a great example for the rest of the game but due to whatever reason the White centre decided in the last Q to offer his "advice" to Taffy, who quite rightly pushed him back 10m and was consistent in that, the White centre came up and got in his face and only Taffy will know what this "look" was but if he felt suitable concerned that it was aggresive then he was right to bin him.

I do however think Taffy could of gotten away with only the YC and just brushed off the comment from the departing player regarding information the player wanted.

I know members on this site through work/home who no longer feel they can write a question or answer for fear of being put down by other more senior members of this site, surely we are here to assist each other and their is the search function to check but sometimes you cant get your point across by dragging up an old thread.

matty1194
21-12-14, 01:12
I would caveat this by saying that this comes with experience. Early on in my referee career (as with many others) any player voicing something like that would make me react in the way you did.

This is BINGO for me, everything is personality driven and as you say it come with experiance and Taffy through gametime will find out what works for him and what doesn't.

crossref
21-12-14, 11:12
Seeing as you had an assessor actually there, who actually witnessed the whole thing, then what he said is much more valuable than the views of anyone here, who didn't see it.

crossref
21-12-14, 12:12
Seeing as you had an assessor actually there, who actually witnessed the whole thing, then what he said is much more valuable than the views of anyone here, who didn't see it.

but - FWIW - my thoughts are

1 - WB talk was interesting on marching 10m. He didn't say 'don''t do it' but he did say to use that tool carefully, as it can inflame tempers rather than cool them -- especially if the physical act of walking 10m entails you walking right up to, and past the person who just dissented. The walking up to him is quite confrontational.

2 - "puts his face right facing me and stares in a very aggressive manner" that feels more like a RC than a YC, to me.

3 - "The player then walked off and then turned and looked at me and said "I want to know your association and your name" and then he walked off towards the touch line" - as he was actually leaving the pitch already, I would ignore that.

Barnesy said : when you do dismiss someone, do it as quickly as possible... and immediately move away and turn your attention elsewhere. Again this is to diffuse the situation.

Browner
21-12-14, 12:12
I kinda get what Simon is intimating, Taffy has IMO kinda sought out this trouble.

Of course a player heading toward the referee & engaging in a face2face is unacceptable, however prior to that , faced with a
"that wasn't high". You could of simply have turned sideways averted eye contact with the player and looked to the captain and said "capt, too high for me, he contacted the neck" or something similar. I rarely look at the player in these situations, he's got the testosterone flowing and I'm using his captain as my diffuser and discipline reinforcer.

As for
called the player back on the pitch and issued a second yellow and then a red card.. Its unlikely that bringing him back on will ever to add much beyond demonstrating your authority and it invites another verbal confrontation, so I wouldn't recommend.

I would've ignored the reactionary ( minor-imo) chunterrings of "assoc & name..blah blah " and focused on the captain for his management role for the remainder of the ' good natured' match.

Dave Sherwin
21-12-14, 16:12
The focus on diffusing a situation has become real central tenet of my refereeing. This extends to everything, from the way you indicate an offending player at the breakdown to the way you handle a red or yellow. I still get it wrong at times, but one tip I have found hugely useful is to try and avoid MARCHING ten - it just escalates matters. On the other hand, I will put clock off, call captain over, explain that I will be advancing the pen 10 and the walk up to the new mark saying to the non-offending team 'just wait for the clock.... Ok, let's go'. Of course, certain circumstances can dictate that this is not used, but it's a very helpful tool.

Stuartg
21-12-14, 16:12
I wonder if, because you're still very new to this, you are communicating a little lack of confidence and this is pucked up by the players. If they believe you're not relaxed and confident then they will question your decisions. We've all been through it I think.

As the game was a good natured one then with 70 happy minutes gone you could have used this to good effect. It appears not to have been a game in which you had to be very heavy handed. A bit of humour can go a long way. When the player thought your high tackle decision was wrong you could have replied that the tackle would have even taken Michael Jordan's (choose your own tall person) head off, saying it with a smile. It is after all a game to be enjoyed.

Once the YC was given I agree with others that you should have ignored his association/name comment. All you did was wind him up more and keep the adrenaline levels up. You need to allow both yourself and the players to have time and space to come down. It takes a conscious effort - I know as my natural behaviour is to react too soon - but the benefits become obvious very quickly.

I'd be interested in whether you'd had any good natured banter, especially with the front row, during the match. I've found they can be your best friends or worst enemy.

beckett50
21-12-14, 16:12
High/dangerous tackles are, by their very nature a contentious area of the game and cause a flash point - the tackler may disagree with your judgement and/or the team mates of the tackled player may take exception to the tackle and potentially take matters into their own hands with some 'handbags'.

Either way we need to ensure that the pressure cooker of the game does not boil over.

The Law states that you are "...the sole judge of fact..." and the act of you blowing the whistle means that you have seen something that in your opinion is contrary either to Law or the sportsmanship of the game.

A better way of handling these situations is to blow time off to a) cool tempers and b) explain to the captain of the offending team why you are penalising them.

A quick "I understand what you are saying, it's just that I saw it differently" shows empathy with the frustration whilst at the same time keeping your authority.

Agree with ST, and also that this sort of thing does come from experience and game time.

Disappointed that Matty feels that some of us use this forum as a stick to beat 'junior' referees. This forum is a great resource for all of us at EVERY level of the game, in whatever capacity. I hope that if someone does feel hard done-by by any replies that they raise these concerns with the various mods.

OB..
21-12-14, 17:12
May I gently point out that we want to "defuse" the situation, not "diffuse" it?

Diffuse: spread over a wide area or between a large number of people.
Defuse: make (a situation) less tense or dangerous

Simon Thomas
21-12-14, 18:12
I kinda get what Simon is intimating, Taffy has IMO kinda sought out this trouble.

Of course a player heading toward the referee & engaging in a face2face is unacceptable, however prior to that , faced with a . You could of simply have turned sideways averted eye contact with the player and looked to the captain and said "capt, too high for me, he contacted the neck" or something similar. I rarely look at the player in these situations, he's got the testosterone flowing and I'm using his captain as my diffuser and discipline reinforcer.

As for . Its unlikely that bringing him back on will ever to add much beyond demonstrating your authority and it invites another verbal confrontation, so I wouldn't recommend.

I would've ignored the reactionary ( minor-imo) chunterrings of "assoc & name..blah blah " and focused on the captain for his management role for the remainder of the ' good natured' match.

Browner - exactly what I was suggesting and have done in previous threads.

Taffy, my suggestion is that you need to adjust your management behaviours to be less confrontational. Have a chat with Observers like Dave Trewin and Referees like Chris Newton and Sarah Cox to get their ideas of how they manage such situations.

Simon Thomas
21-12-14, 20:12
My BOLD Also fixed that for you, otherwise the grammar police will be on your case. :biggrin:
simple typo with letters next to each other.

Simon, I have to back up Taffy here, you with your numerous years of experiance and all of the "hats" you wear will surely have come across players/situations like this both when you refereed and now when you are involved in other ways and also referees who ask questions about situations in public not online.

On here I will give the same pov, opinions and advice I would give to my guys in public in the Society, Federation and Group. Indeed Matty I did face some similar situations occasionally when playing and in my refereeing years - over the years my learning has been to stay detached and objective, to manage things in avoiding confrontation, escalation, etc. To be Calm, Cool, Collected, Consistent, and Confident.

Taffy as stated in the OP had initailly clamped down on the "chat" in the first Q aaand stated that it was a great example for the rest of the game but due to whatever reason the White centre decided in the last Q to offer his "advice" to Taffy, who quite rightly pushed him back 10m and was consistent in that, the White centre came up and got in his face and only Taffy will know what this "look" was but if he felt suitable concerned that it was aggresive then he was right to bin him.

I do however think Taffy could of gotten away with only the YC and just brushed off the comment from the departing player regarding information the player wanted.

I know members on this site through work/home who no longer feel they can write a question or answer for fear of being put down by other more senior members of this site, surely we are here to assist each other and their is the search function to check but sometimes you cant get your point across by dragging up an old thread.

Yes totally agree and no intent to put down anyone, but offer advice and views that could hope them meet their aspirations. As you get up the grades to say L6 &7 it gets more and more serious, as you know yourself, so my advice is offered in that context. Taffy has expressed aspirations to those levels so that is what I have given



.....

Taffy
22-12-14, 10:12
I wonder if, because you're still very new to this, you are communicating a little lack of confidence and this is pucked up by the players. If they believe you're not relaxed and confident then they will question your decisions. We've all been through it I think.

As the game was a good natured one then with 70 happy minutes gone you could have used this to good effect. It appears not to have been a game in which you had to be very heavy handed. A bit of humour can go a long way. When the player thought your high tackle decision was wrong you could have replied that the tackle would have even taken Michael Jordan's (choose your own tall person) head off, saying it with a smile. It is after all a game to be enjoyed.

Once the YC was given I agree with others that you should have ignored his association/name comment. All you did was wind him up more and keep the adrenaline levels up. You need to allow both yourself and the players to have time and space to come down. It takes a conscious effort - I know as my natural behaviour is to react too soon - but the benefits become obvious very quickly.

I'd be interested in whether you'd had any good natured banter, especially with the front row, during the match. I've found they can be your best friends or worst enemy.


Strange as it had been one of the best games from the point of view of banter. Always tricky as I try to strike the balance. In the first part of the second half I binned a player for a team offence (warning given to captain 2 mins earlier) and as I produced the card, all his team mates fell about laughing. He had only been on for 10 seconds. When he did come back on he came up to me and said "try and keep me on for longer this time please sir" no problem there, good banter and enjoyed by all. Guess this is why it rather threw me as all out of context.

It got worse when I got home as no one at the club could give me a name and the director of rugby spoke to me and tried to get me to discuss the card. When I told him I was unable to, suffice to say the conversation was a little uncomfortable. Appreciate all the comments here.

Again. Much to learn. And that's ok.

FlipFlop
22-12-14, 11:12
As someone who also has similar issues at times (managing to escalate tempers - not helped by language issues!).

I have found that if something is clear & obvious to all there are no issues, the main issues come when players don't understand the decision, and the high tackle is a classic for this.

Most think a high tackle is a clothes lines, or a swinging arm, or similar. But most (all?) refs will rule contact with the neck or higher is a high tackle. So there is a disconnect in expectations. I have found that for this sort of case, I add to the normal routine of: Whistle, Primary Signal etc a secondary explanation (in this case "contact with neck"). Then everyone knows WHY I called it the way I did. And this helps.

But back to the OP - I don't think a call of "That wasn't high" - warrants 10m. Especially in a good natured game. Perhaps if things were getting a bit worse - it is the right time to speak to the captain and ask him carry on the previous good work. If not a trend, perhaps at the next opportune moment - a word to the captain or the player to control themselves etc. and keep the discipline that has previously been there. You've managed to escalate a "That wasn't high" to a red card, with little in the way of looking to lower the tension.

So yes - I think you have been harsh, and not only over-reacted at teh beginning, but failed to spot the ways out as you went along.

matty1194
22-12-14, 15:12
It got worse when I got home as no one at the club could give me a name and the director of rugby spoke to me and tried to get me to discuss the card. When I told him I was unable to, suffice to say the conversation was a little uncomfortable.

Again. Much to learn. And that's ok.

Make sure when you submit any discipline paperwork that you indicate that no-one at the club was willing to give you the name of the player and that includes the "DOR" as surely he knows all his own players.

I would expect a Discipline Committee to be having stern words with said club about their responsibilities.

(Edited - Spelling mistakes before the Grammar/Spelling Police jump on me).

Dave Sherwin
22-12-14, 15:12
May I gently point out that we want to "defuse" the situation, not "diffuse" it?

Diffuse: spread over a wide area or between a large number of people.
Defuse: make (a situation) less tense or dangerous

No need to be gentle about it - as a onetime English teacher I should be well and truly hammered. Not quite sure what happened there!

tim White
22-12-14, 17:12
All refs will appreciate the sentiment about looking out for next weeks ref though. :clap:

winchesterref
22-12-14, 23:12
Taffy

My first season I did exactly the same things. It gave me a pseudo-confidence in situations that were totally new and unknown to me. An "I'm in charge" mindset if you like. Time, space, breaking contact and selective deafness are your friends with scenarios like this.

Blow the whistle, or whatever your action is, and stop the clock. Take your time, and move to space. Gives you the room to think your process through and just gives a bit of perspective - you're keeping your emotional chimp in the box (read the book, worthwhile).

If it is a confrontational situation with a player, break the contact. For example, if you give a decision and they jump up and stare you down, then move to the penalty location, turn away, or talk to another person. Card if needed and move, don't engage in a cock swinging contest to see who's going to blink or react first, don't give them the opportunity. Firm and decisive, but remove the confrontation.

And selective deafness; a useful skill to develop, but as you've noted - a fine line from one week to the next. Personal tolerances vary and there is nothing you can do about that, but recognising a comment said in the heat/frustration of the moment is different to something said pointedly and directed abusively towards you. Ignoring a voice and engaging someone else or using downtime to acknowledge you've heard something and it isn't acceptable can be more successful than creating a scene over something that could have been managed discreetly.

Good luck!

viper492
02-02-15, 14:02
Taffy,
Was there any result from the judicial hearing or did nothing occur due to the lack of a name? And surely there is a penalty against the club for refusing to supply such information?

I'm not going to add anything to your dealing with it but would like to say that my association and referee's course always instructed me to get the name before sending the player/from the captain on the field immediately after the send off or immediately after the game as I signed the match card.