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Taffy
05-01-15, 00:01
Don't want to open up an old thread but interested to see how things lie across the other parts of the UK.

Had a local derby yesterday, two third teams. Home team very gobby from the outset, appeals, looks of shock and horror, hands thrown in the air. You get the picture. The match went like this.

1st time - told skipper and reminded him of the deal pre match

2nd time. Penalty

3rd time (immediately after second time). 10 yards and another

4th time - team warning

5th time - yellow card.

Then the game settled down.

Afterwards the home team prop told me a couple of things that surprised me

1. "It's only social rugby sir, you were taking it too seriously"

2. "You were far stricter than we are used to, we normally get away with all that and more"

And yet, both teams agreed that they enjoyed the very close game.

The opposing team coach that was running touch said "I thought you were over the top in the first ten minutes, but it certainly sorted them out and we had a great game of rugby".

Yet the captain of the home side told me that I needed to realise that the game was not "all about me".

Interesting as for a ten minute period I was the centre of attention. But also interesting a level 5 ref was playing and told me that I had got the home team to "shut up" which was more than he had ever done.

I'm not posting for plaudits but would be interested to know:

1. Is this why we are Losing grass roots refs?

2. It is social rugby - any strength to the claim?

3. Is this just yet another confirmation that you should stick to your guns early on and brazen out the "centre of attention period" to establish control?

Adam
05-01-15, 01:01
It's an interesting topic this, and one that I'm constantly learning and improving on.

Pre-match to captains: we've been asked to cut off appealing and chat, I'm looking to you guys to deal with it.

I may start off with a comment such as "give me a chance mate" or something.

Generally speaking I will only penalise/take them back 10 once (march is an awful word).

Players are supposed to determine results of matches, and I hate giving those decisions which are based around me and not players determining the result.

The groundwork with the captain is very important. Refer back to the pre-match brief, "we agreed you'd sort this beforehand, have a word with X". Use a look that portrays that he needs to sort something. "Your players are going to start giving penalties away if they keep appealing/chatting, it's distracting us all from the game". After a penalty, "captain, go and speak to your players about the verbals, there may be an escalation next time".

If you are good enough at putting the monkey on the captain's back early on, in particular at the pre-PK and PK stages, and your YC warning is depersonalised and powerful enough then that escalation happens less frequently.

The key is depersonalising it, "you need to deal with this", "you have a problem", "there may be an escalation" not "I'll escalate next time". This takes the emotion out of it and gives a great message to the captain.

Taffy
05-01-15, 01:01
Adam,

do you concur that the best matches have been where you have dealt with it early on?

and I am surprised that it is still prevalent at your level.

Not Kurt Weaver
05-01-15, 01:01
I'm not posting for plaudits but would be interested to know:

1. Is this why we are Losing grass roots refs?

2. It is social rugby - any strength to the claim?

3. Is this just yet another confirmation that you should stick to your guns early on and brazen out the "centre of attention period" to establish control?

1. Yes, it ended me
2. No, players can still get injured or assaulted in social rugby
3. Yes, I wish I would have had instruction for just this before I did my first match and refreshed on this method monthly

Dickie E
05-01-15, 01:01
do you concur that the best matches have been where you have dealt with it early on?



Yes, must be dealt with early but not necessarily harshly.

The key is the relationship with the captain.

Taffy
05-01-15, 02:01
1. Yes, it ended me
2. No, players can still get injured or assaulted in social rugby
3. Yes, I wish I would have had instruction for just this before I did my first match and refreshed on this method monthly

Would be interested to know factually how many refs have left because of this. Do we conduct any "exit polls"?

If, as I suspect it is a BIG issue (and perhaps more so at grass roots where the new guys like me are trying to get their head around the whole picture and jigsaw) then what should the societies do about it. Have to say that I get the impression that the clubs tend to regard the refs as "the enemy" which is just plain daft.

Dave Sherwin
05-01-15, 03:01
Couple of thoughts:

1. I would agree that this is a rising issue at all levels (though I find US college rugby to be quieter than most!). I've had (admittedly developing union) internationals where I've had to work pretty hard on this point.

2. I would endorse all of Adam's points.

3. I noticed you used the word "control". I have had it drilled into me that the referee is not there to control the game but to facilitate it. I don't think this is a purely semantic difference. Watch Luke Pearce when you next have the chance; I think his approach to appealing and the way he facilitates rather than controls the game is outstanding. I suspect this comes from having been refereeing men's matches when he was still so young he had to cycle to matches and thus any attempt to "control" would probably have ended in disaster.

Dickie E
05-01-15, 03:01
"I hear what you're saying but I saw it differently" and "I'll keep an eye out for that next time" seem to work wonders

Simon Thomas
05-01-15, 07:01
Would be interested to know factually how many refs have left because of this. Do we conduct any "exit polls"?

If, as I suspect it is a BIG issue (and perhaps more so at grass roots where the new guys like me are trying to get their head around the whole picture and jigsaw) then what should the societies do about it. Have to say that I get the impression that the clubs tend to regard the refs as "the enemy" which is just plain daft.

Taffy, it will depend on the Society and who the volunteer management are, the time they have available etc but many Societies do track the reasons (declared and actual) for a referee leaving the Society / reffing totally. This has been a key part of our Recruitment & Retention strategies.
The RFU have a number of times in the past looked into the reasons and introduced various initiatives to reduce the churn rate and reinforce the rugby culture & ethos.

OB..
05-01-15, 12:01
1. Is this why we are Losing grass roots refs?

2. It is social rugby - any strength to the claim?

3. Is this just yet another confirmation that you should stick to your guns early on and brazen out the "centre of attention period" to establish control?
1. We had a L% ref give up becasue of eth player's attitudes.
2. None whatsoever. (Do they really change attitude when playing a league or cup game?!)
3. Yes.



Players are supposed to determine results of matches, and I hate giving those decisions which are based around me and not players determining the result.Dealing with it is not about you. It is about misbehaviour by the players and it is their fault if they suffer accordingly.

crossref
05-01-15, 12:01
2. It is social rugby - any strength to the claim?


I remember an experienced ref telling me (after I had had a tricky game) : cup, league, friendly, testimonial, just-for-fun : from the ref's point of view it doesn't matter: it's just another game that can potentially run away out of control if you let it.

Adam
05-01-15, 12:01
1. We had a L% ref give up becasue of eth player's attitudes.
2. None whatsoever. (Do they really change attitude when playing a league or cup game?!)
3. Yes.


Dealing with it is not about you. It is about misbehaviour by the players and it is their fault if they suffer accordingly.

I agree. I don't like doing it. That doesn't mean I don't do it if I have to.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
05-01-15, 13:01
I agree. I don't like doing it. That doesn't mean I don't do it if I have to.

Working for a living?

Adam
05-01-15, 13:01
Working for a living?

Haha. I should be come August providing I pass this week's exams and ones in April/May.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
05-01-15, 14:01
Haha. I should be come August providing I pass this week's exams and ones in April/May.

Get revising and enjoy your holiday - in that order.

chbg
05-01-15, 22:01
The most unpleasant match I have ever probably played in was last season when the Service opposition (of course) No 8 (an ex-National 1 player apparently) ruined it for everyone else by constantly appealing and back-chatting the new-ish referee (who has not since given up). It eventually irked both sets of senior (age-wise) players into verbalising badly as well. As a result, I was fully fore-armed when refereeing his team a couple of months later. After the first 5 minutes in which he had been warned and then penalised, he was as good as gold for the rest of the match. Apparently his own team appreciated the peacefulness! I did not specifically warn him in the PMB as that felt to me to be too close to premeditated victimisation.

Na Madrai
07-01-15, 10:01
I allow no appealing, by word or gesture, in any match in which I officiate. At the first sign, both captains are warned, second, a penalty is awarded, third, a card is presented. At one match this season, a player received a RC in the first quarter and it was treated as referee abuse at the hearing.

One instance occured when I was receiving my annual MOT. The full back, standing fully fifty yards from the ruck, shouted that a player was holding on. The penalty awarded at where he was standing eventually led to a try. The advisor's comment on the incident simply stated that NM's management style was quickly and clearly established for both players and spectators to see.

If every referee showed zero tolerance, chat would be wiped out immediately.

NM

TheBFG
07-01-15, 11:01
I believe there is a difference between players that talk their way through a game and those that are out to try and sway a refs decisions.

I have no issue with players that voice "knock on" or "forward" as just part of a reaction to what's going on around them, but when players start shouting at me i'll draw a line.

I have to say though that when the backs start caling for things in the rucks/scrums I usually laugh more than ping them, they soon shut up!

andyscott
07-01-15, 12:01
Ok this is going to sound wrong and but it shouldnt.

It IS all about you as a referee. The players go out and play their best, they dont go out and play a bit easier because they used to play high level rugby and now dont, they play their best. So should you as a referee.

I have high standards for backchat and will enforce it at any level.

I have refereed a relatively low level league game this year and the players loved it. 2nd ruck of the game, YC dangerous charging and then a YC about 10mins in for a cynical not 10m. The game opened right up. The players loved this. Sure you got the odd I thought it was harsh at this level, my only response is, "did it work?" followed by a smile :)

Never have I subscribed to the notion that you let things go because of X and at this level they are doing it by mistake. I ref every game like its my world cup final and all teams respond.

andyscott
07-01-15, 12:01
I allow no appealing, by word or gesture, in any match in which I officiate. At the first sign, both captains are warned, second, a penalty is awarded, third, a card is presented. At one match this season, a player received a RC in the first quarter and it was treated as referee abuse at the hearing.

One instance occured when I was receiving my annual MOT. The full back, standing fully fifty yards from the ruck, shouted that a player was holding on. The penalty awarded at where he was standing eventually led to a try. The advisor's comment on the incident simply stated that NM's management style was quickly and clearly established for both players and spectators to see.

If every referee showed zero tolerance, chat would be wiped out immediately.

NM

Spot on. Set standards and enforce them.

Browner
07-01-15, 13:01
Taffy,
1. I don't have data to comment.

2. No. Permappealing is a disease, it ruins my enjoyment of refereeing their contest, and RARELY EVER factors in materiality OR VERY RARELY any technical law knowledge or game management skill.

3. Yes. And be consistent next week. But I'd replace "control" with 'standards'

Pinky
08-01-15, 01:01
I believe there is a difference between players that talk their way through a game and those that are out to try and sway a refs decisions.

I have no issue with players that voice "knock on" or "forward" as just part of a reaction to what's going on around them, but when players start shouting at me i'll draw a line.

I have to say though that when the backs start caling for things in the rucks/scrums I usually laugh more than ping them, they soon shut up!

BFG if that works for you, good, but I find if I don't clamp down on the chat such as "forward" "hands" etc it can lead to a problem is a player appeals for "forward" just as you blow up, the opposition may get the impression you have been swayed by the appeal and they then start appealing too. It can then escalate.

andyscott
08-01-15, 14:01
I have no issue with players that voice "knock on" or "forward" as just part of a reaction to what's going on around them, but when players start shouting at me i'll draw a line.


Who do you think they are aiming those appeals at??????

TheBFG
08-01-15, 17:01
nobody, they're just talking about the game. I did it all the time, I wasn't shouting at the ref just reacting to what I'd seen.

You're driving along and someone pulls out in front of you, causing you to break hard, I'm guessing most would react, saying something like "you silly fool, try opening your eyes, did you not see me approaching" or words to that effect?

Can they hear you? No, but you still do it!

But in all seriousness, if a player eyeballs me and shouts for something, well that's a different story! Do you expect players to play in silence?

OB..
08-01-15, 17:01
The problem is that if someone shouts "forward pass", and you then whistle for it, they get the impression that you are reacting to their call. One side gets miffed, the other decides to try it again.

It is unnecessary, and the game is better without it. Manage it in accordance with the temper of the game.

TheBFG
08-01-15, 17:01
blow quicker!

Shelflife
08-01-15, 18:01
Had a to have a chat with a 2nd rower last Sunday re chat, nothing major just marking his card for him, called him over and he stood right up against me (closer than you normally would) in what I believed to be a childish effort to intimidate me. I'm only 5 7 so he was towering over me.

I just looked at him and said Seriously ? you want to go down that route ? of course there was the whole I don't know what you're talking about excuse.

I told him to cease the verbals and he did in fairness but have any of you come across this behaviour before ?

Dave Sherwin
08-01-15, 18:01
Think it was Ian Tempest who earlier in the season had to say to Stuart Hooper "you need to respect my space, please".

Taffy
08-01-15, 18:01
Had a to have a chat with a 2nd rower last Sunday re chat, nothing major just marking his card for him, called him over and he stood right up against me (closer than you normally would) in what I believed to be a childish effort to intimidate me. I'm only 5 7 so he was towering over me.

I just looked at him and said Seriously ? you want to go down that route ? of course there was the whole I don't know what you're talking about excuse.

I told him to cease the verbals and he did in fairness but have any of you come across this behaviour before ?

Sort of. Had a prop come far too close and stare at me (posted before about this). Decided quickly that he was trying to intimidate me so off he went for ten minutes. As he was leaving asked for my name and association, so decided this was another piece of dissent so turned the yellow into :norc:

Not everybody happy, but made the point.

matty1194
08-01-15, 18:01
Think it was Ian Tempest who earlier in the season had to say to Stuart Hooper "you need to respect my space, please".

Think Matt Carley said similar on the weekend when someone rushed up to him to appeal something and got very close very quick.







(edited for spelling mistakes :hap:)

OB..
08-01-15, 21:01
blow quicker!... and pre-empt any possible advantage?

Browner
09-01-15, 06:01
nobody, they're just talking about the game. I did it all the time, I wasn't shouting at the ref just reacting to what I'd seen.

You're driving along and someone pulls out in front of you, causing you to break hard, I'm guessing most would react, saying something like "you silly fool, try opening your eyes, did you not see me approaching" or words to that effect?

Can they hear you? No, but you still do it!

But in all seriousness, if a player eyeballs me and shouts for something, well that's a different story! Do you expect players to play in silence?

I kinda get what BFG is saying Its all about the level of acceptability, use judgement and manage it.
I'd often use "7s offside, or he's not binding correctly" to set a flanker back on his heels, or, into reverse just prior to setting off to exploit the extra space my chat had created. If you try and cancel this "game commentary", then you'll fail, but players that cross into permanent appealing need to be discouraged. Its certainly a more enjoyable match without it.

andyscott
09-01-15, 08:01
nobody, they're just talking about the game. I did it all the time, I wasn't shouting at the ref just reacting to what I'd seen.

You're driving along and someone pulls out in front of you, causing you to break hard, I'm guessing most would react, saying something like "you silly fool, try opening your eyes, did you not see me approaching" or words to that effect?

Can they hear you? No, but you still do it!

But in all seriousness, if a player eyeballs me and shouts for something, well that's a different story! Do you expect players to play in silence?

They dont need to appeal no, its not wendyball.

But if I shout at another car driver, it totally is directed towards them.

TheBFG
09-01-15, 10:01
... and pre-empt any possible advantage?

well then you wouldn't be giving it anyway :wink:

OB..
09-01-15, 12:01
well then you wouldn't be giving it anyway :wink:Not necessarily true.

Pegleg
10-01-15, 08:01
I think you have to use common sense with players' comments. Even if they are not directed at you they can create a "culture" that in some games will lead to an escalation of problems.

I have "replied": "thanks for the advice Red . But you play, and I'll ref thank you". as an opener. Possibly sarcastuc / talking down to them. But it works for me.

There has always be chat (although one ex first class 9 tells me that in the 60s the game was played in silence - Hmmmmm!!??) and the odd comment will happen and they are not always directed at us specifically. So manage the situation. You are in the middle. So deal with it in a way that works for you. If you get it wrong this time try different methods until you find some that work for you.

viper492
02-02-15, 13:02
Sort of. Had a prop come far too close and stare at me (posted before about this). Decided quickly that he was trying to intimidate me so off he went for ten minutes.

Not having seen the other post, what was the result of the Judiciary for the RC? SOS or did he cop a few weeks?

EDIT: Found the post. Reading now and if there's nothing in there, I'll post in the correct thread.