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Dave Sherwin
05-01-15, 03:01
Any of our US, Canadian or other NACRA region refs going to be attending this? I'm aiming to make it as the programme looks good. Alain Rolland as final speaker of the day.

SimonSmith
05-01-15, 13:01
Won't able to make it.

Simon Thomas
05-01-15, 13:01
Informative website here (http://usarugby.org/national-development-summit#2015=nds) - well done USA

Plus Kurt Weaver has a thread on USA Rugby Referees on Facebook.

3133

crossref
05-01-15, 14:01
if I was organising I'd look at the 11:30 slot, where both the coaching session and the reffing session is about the breakdown (if I were attending I'd have marked both those sessions!)

Dave Sherwin
05-01-15, 14:01
The USA Rugby Referees facebook page is good, especially the law exams!

SimonSmith
06-01-15, 01:01
The Facebook page is full of halfwits who shouldn't be near a whistle or rugby field - recent discussion on tackle/gate/offside lines being prime evidence

didds
06-01-15, 04:01
is that thew ankle tap video simon?
didds

Dave Sherwin
06-01-15, 12:01
The Facebook page is full of halfwits who shouldn't be near a whistle or rugby field - recent discussion on tackle/gate/offside lines being prime evidence

I don't disagree on some of the queries raised, but I think those that run it make a good effort and some of the links posted are good. Of course, standard nowhere near this!

SimonSmith
06-01-15, 13:01
is that thew ankle tap video simon?
didds

It is. I despair, I really do.

Dave - that Facebook page is about the only half decent thing that Central Office do for the wider refereeing community. Frankly if they worked for me I'd have fired the lot of them. They have a semi decent Facebook page that is populated by idiots and sycophants. It's badly moderated, and there is no long term thought process for how to use the tool.

I'm trying to manage and grow a small referee society in Virginia. Despite requests to Colorado, would you like to take a guess as to how much help I've gotten from them? Go on, guess. Probably too busy writing the next novel.

Dave Sherwin
06-01-15, 13:01
Could I be of any assistance? Can probably get to you for a weekend, ref a game and deliver a World Rugby Level 1 or 2 course.

Not Kurt Weaver
06-01-15, 13:01
Informative website here (http://usarugby.org/national-development-summit#2015=nds) - well done USA

Plus Kurt Weaver has a thread on USA Rugby Referees on Facebook.



Ah the young ref that introduced me to rugbyrefs, probably to shut me up (justified).

His is a bit more of a conformist than I, he has to be. He works for USArugby. He had great potential as a Marco Rubio impersonator, but turned to refereeing as his hairline changed and Rubio killed his own chances to win presidency with a simple drink of water.

SimonSmith
06-01-15, 13:01
I really appreciate the offer, thanks.

I have IRB (or World Rugby) Educators. My difficulties are in recruiting/developmental training. Like most of the US I have a widish geo dispersal - 350 miles + at the widest, and about 300 N/S, which makes training sessions difficult to organize.

Here's where I get the head butt. Last year, or 2 years ago, Colorado decided to have monthly LRO calls, to which I was invited. They had the bright idea of "certification" for Ref Socs. One of the subjects they brought up was regular training. I explained that everyone sensible in my Society had a full time job that carried fairly demanding hours. There's no way I can put a training program together. But, I said, I have two Educators, and I train regularly as part of my job. You give us material - the stuff that USA R thinks is important for referees, and we can deliver it. Win/Win, right? We get to deliver training, and USA R get to ensure that every Society and every referee is getting a consistent message rather than the balkanized local variants that currently happens.

Great idea quoth our friendly novel writer. Since then? Crickets. Tumbleweed. A church bell tolls.

You know what? **** em. Great. Leah Berard gets international gigs. We don't have enough referees to cover all our games each weekend. I'm not personally a fan of driving 250 miles one way and then having to do 2 or 3 games in one day and driving home. To quote Mr McClane, I'm getting too old for this shit.

ChrisR
07-01-15, 11:01
Dave Sherman,

as you'll be attending the summit (I can't unless someone pays my fare) perhaps you can ask if USA Rugby will be implementing the IRB's 'temporary replacement protocol' for players undergoing off pitch concussion assessment.

ddjamo
07-01-15, 11:01
usar and it's employees function for nothing but self promotion/job preservation...there is no genuine indication that they are for the good of the sport.

Dickie E
08-01-15, 04:01
usar and it's employees function for nothing but self promotion/job preservation...there is no genuine indication that they are for the good of the sport.

3145

mmssff (stutter - sorry)

Dave Sherwin
08-01-15, 05:01
Dave Sherman,

as you'll be attending the summit (I can't unless someone pays my fare) perhaps you can ask if USA Rugby will be implementing the IRB's 'temporary replacement protocol' for players undergoing off pitch concussion assessment.

which bit in particular?

smeagol
08-01-15, 07:01
I actually got a voicemail from someone in Colorado whom I've never met indicating the summit is happening, and wanted to gauge whether I was interested in attending or some shit like that.

For all of the great things going on at this summit, the approximately one month advance notice seems...haphazard.

I would like to go, but have had the weekend blocked off for months (and my commitment is local). What gets my goat is that little if any material will be made publicly available to the rugby community.

For those going: Fly into O'Hare, and take the Blue Line to Rosemont. You can then walk 2-3 blocks to the hotel.

ChrisR
08-01-15, 10:01
Dave, the bit that treats leaving the pitch for a concussion assessment same as blood. Temporary replacement for 10 minutes (not enough IMO).

RobLev
08-01-15, 12:01
Dave, the bit that treats leaving the pitch for a concussion assessment same as blood. Temporary replacement for 10 minutes (not enough IMO).

It's the Law 3 "Law Amendment Trial" in the 2015 Lawbook; it starts:

LAW AMENDMENT TRIAL
Temporary replacement - head injury assessment

In all situations, if there are any indications of concussion a player MUST be removed from play. This is known as Recognise and Remove. For tournaments and matches approved by the Union or Rugby body having jurisdiction and with trained healthcare professionals, a temporary replacement may be used for a player who has a head injury where the diagnosis is unclear.

(a) When a player leaves the field to have a head injury assessment that player may be temporarily replaced. If the player who has been temporarily replaced does not return to the field of play within ten minutes (actual time) of leaving the playing area, the replacement becomes permanent and the replaced player must not return to the field of play.

...

Which I read as saying:

In all games, anyone with indications of concussion leaves the field.

If there are trained healthcare professionals around, and the tournament/match is approved by the national Union (ie it's not eg a friendly match), then the player can come back onto the field if s/he passes a pitchside assement within 10 minutes of going off - and can be temporarily replaced while being assessed.

If there are none, or the game isn't approved by the Union, then he stays off and any sub is permanent.

So for a player with indications of concussion it's either pitchside assessment plus temporary replacement; or "your match is over" and, if available, a permanent replacement; depending on the status of the match.

Which would seem to mean that USA Rugby doesn't get an opt-out of temporary substitution while an assessment takes place; although, in another thread, SimonSmith indicates that they have taken an opt-out.

SimonSmith
08-01-15, 13:01
USA have elected to not do this at any level lower than International. Part of their positioning IIRC is that a "trained healthcare person" should be a neurologist or similar, not Jimmy The Trainer

RobLev
08-01-15, 13:01
USA have elected to not do this at any level lower than International. Part of their positioning IIRC is that a "trained healthcare person" should be a neurologist or similar, not Jimmy The Trainer

OK; I apologise - I misunderstood your comment then (and I think so did Marauder). As I now understand you: for internationals it's assessment plus temporary replacement, whereas below that it's "any indication of concussion = end of match for the player concerned", and any replacement is therefore permanent.

I can see a problem there. The whole concept only gives the lower level players proper protection if the precautionary principle is applied - ie any doubt player goes off; whereas coaches at lower levels will argue that unless there are clear indications of concussion (and who's the referee to gainsay his qualified team doctor/physio?) he should stay on. That particularly applies the further up the rankings the concept extends, since there is more riding on the match; and USAR's position applies that to the very highest levels of USA domestic rugby.

ChrisR
08-01-15, 17:01
I don't think that is correct, but I would like Dave to report on:

a. The USA Rugby position on their protocol for pitch side concussion assessment,

b. How they view SRO (State Rugby Orgs.) standards for this. Our Virginia SRO (that runs all youth rugby in the state) has stringent requirements for medical staff at matches. Our club (Culpeper) had two medicos, an EMT and a pediatrician, both trained on impact injuries which included concussions, at every home match.

chrismtl
08-01-15, 18:01
I don't understand why they wouldn't run this at the same time as the LVI/SWS. There's going to be tons of refs, coaches and players already going to that, it's a pretty affordable destination, and quite a bit more fun than Chicago in January. Plus, I'm sure that if you ran it the week before the tournament (Wednesday-Friday), you'd probably be able to get one of the SWS refs to speak as well. At the end of the day this is a 1 day conference that USAR has decided to spread over 3 days.

Dave Sherwin
08-01-15, 18:01
I don't think that is correct, but I would like Dave to report on:

a. The USA Rugby position on their protocol for pitch side concussion assessment,

b. How they view SRO (State Rugby Orgs.) standards for this. Our Virginia SRO (that runs all youth rugby in the state) has stringent requirements for medical staff at matches. Our club (Culpeper) had two medicos, an EMT and a pediatrician, both trained on impact injuries which included concussions, at every home match.

Will report back on what I find out. One thing I know is that I have officiated in a number of IRB/WR matches where the IRB/WR Match Commissioner has determined that there will be no HIA protocol since there will be no IRB/WR-trained medical professional present. The presence of numerous doctors (including, on at least one occasion, a consultant neurologist) has not enabled application of the HIA because the relevant medical professional did not hold the relevant IRB/WR certificate.

Dave Sherwin
08-01-15, 18:01
I don't understand why they wouldn't run this at the same time as the LVI/SWS. There's going to be tons of refs, coaches and players already going to that, it's a pretty affordable destination, and quite a bit more fun than Chicago in January. Plus, I'm sure that if you ran it the week before the tournament (Wednesday-Friday), you'd probably be able to get one of the SWS refs to speak as well. At the end of the day this is a 1 day conference that USAR has decided to spread over 3 days. Agree that it is effectively a one day conference. I am arriving late Friday and departing early Sunday prior to the Sunday morning sessions. I suspect that running it in the days before the LVI/SWS might be difficult as those days are likely to be week days and so reduce attendance. I don't know, though - it's just a thought.

chrismtl
08-01-15, 23:01
Agree that it is effectively a one day conference. I am arriving late Friday and departing early Sunday prior to the Sunday morning sessions. I suspect that running it in the days before the LVI/SWS might be difficult as those days are likely to be week days and so reduce attendance. I don't know, though - it's just a thought.

I'm assuming it's because it's a stand alone event that they want to be run by itself. That being said, this forum is the first (and only) place I heard of the event. I know I don't live in the US, but I'm registered with the NCCP as a coach and I'm also a referee. Plus, I planned my trip to go to Vegas to watch the SWS pretty much after I got back from the SWS last year, and I had flights and hotels booked for about 2-3 months now and bought my tournament tickets 5+ months ago. The case might be different for slightly older professionals, but for a 24 yr old student, I don't have the money to go on 2 big expense rugby trips every year, and an international rugby tournament in Vegas is by far a bigger draw than Chicago for a 1 day conference.

mark.lucas
27-01-15, 19:01
... whereas coaches at lower levels will argue that unless there are clear indications of concussion (and who's the referee to gainsay his qualified team doctor/physio?) he should stay on. ...

I'm only just beginning to referee here in the USA having recently moved from the UK, but I will gainsay anybody if I believe there is an issue. That is part of the referee's job / responsibility.

OK I have been a trained first-aider all my adult life, but the mantra of "If in doubt, sit them out." has to be the right one, and indeed I had to take an on-line course on this in order to be approved by USA Rugby as a coach.

RobLev
27-01-15, 20:01
I'm only just beginning to referee here in the USA having recently moved from the UK, but I will gainsay anybody if I believe there is an issue. That is part of the referee's job / responsibility.

I entirely agree - but the coach won't see it that way...


OK I have been a trained first-aider all my adult life, but the mantra of "If in doubt, sit them out." has to be the right one, and indeed I had to take an on-line course on this in order to be approved by USA Rugby as a coach.