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JJ10
11-01-15, 22:01
Saturday, White playing with a strong breeze. White kick goes up, rolls into dead ball area. Yellow full-back makes the *attempt* to put his foot over the dead ball line and touch the ball to enforce scrum back. However, yellow 15 cocks it up by allowing the ball to stop moving. I award 22 drop out - he either 1) touched it down inside the dead ball area, or 2) had his foot over the dead ball line when touching a non-moving ball.... bit of both as he made such a mess of it.

Not entirely sure this was right, or whether 1) or 2) makes a difference to the final decision, given that White played the ball into the 22. No complaint from either side with the decision.

Thanks all!

beckett50
11-01-15, 22:01
Ball had stopped.

Right call.

Nigib
11-01-15, 23:01
Ball had stopped.

Right call.

Wot he said

Pegleg
12-01-15, 00:01
Agreed.

not kicked dead (stopped moving) so the scrum back is not an option. Attacking side took it in to the in-goal and defenders minored it. 22 drop out.

Taff
12-01-15, 01:01
The scrum-back option exists if the ball is kicked through in-goal.

This wasn't kicked through. It was kicked in - but not "through" so no scrum back option.

Phil E
12-01-15, 10:01
The scrum-back option exists if the ball is kicked through in-goal.

This wasn't kicked through. It was kicked in - but not "through" so no scrum back option.

But "IF" the ball was still moving (in in-goal) when the defender, with a foot over the dead ball line, had picked it up, then it would have been a scrum back option; even though the ball didn't actually go "through" the the dead ball line.

But as the ball had stopped, it didn't matter.

PS Taff, you coming to Tigers Friday night?

Dickie E
12-01-15, 11:01
So if defender has foot over DBL and ball is still moving and defender presses down on ball. 22 or option?

FlipFlop
12-01-15, 11:01
So if defender has foot over DBL and ball is still moving and defender presses down on ball. 22 or option?

22. No Option. Defender has made it dead in goal. It has not been kicked through. In the same way an attacker can score a try by pressing down on the ball, even if in touch/touch-in-goal/over dead-ball line.

So if they want the option - defender has to pick it up, so that it has gone dead over the dead-ball or touch-in-goal line.

Dave Sherwin
12-01-15, 13:01
22. No Option. Defender has made it dead in goal. It has not been kicked through. In the same way an attacker can score a try by pressing down on the ball, even if in touch/touch-in-goal/over dead-ball line.

So if they want the option - defender has to pick it up, so that it has gone dead over the dead-ball or touch-in-goal line.

An interesting one. 100% agree where the defender presses down on the ball (notwithstanding the lack of requirement of downwards pressure, this is helpful in indicating a defender's desire to claim the 22, whether the defender has his foot over DBL or not). But there was an incident in my game at the weekend where a prop of all people got right back after a quick from within the opponent's 22 and, as the ball cam towards him, lay down with his feet over the DBL and let the ball roll into his hands. He didn't lift the ball up, but to my mind and given the way he had positioned his body, his clear intention was to claim the right to an option and I felt he had done enough to do so. I believe Ben Foden similarly did this about four years ago for Northampton, though I can't find the clip and so can't recall if he actually lifted the ball in that scenario.

Purely out of interest, FlipFlop, would you have granted the option?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
12-01-15, 13:01
An interesting one. 100% agree where the defender presses down on the ball (notwithstanding the lack of requirement of downwards pressure, this is helpful in indicating a defender's desire to claim the 22, whether the defender has his foot over DBL or not). But there was an incident in my game at the weekend where a prop of all people got right back after a quick from within the opponent's 22 and, as the ball cam towards him, lay down with his feet over the DBL and let the ball roll into his hands. He didn't lift the ball up, but to my mind and given the way he had positioned his body, his clear intention was to claim the right to an option and I felt he had done enough to do so. I believe Ben Foden similarly did this about four years ago for Northampton, though I can't find the clip and so can't recall if he actually lifted the ball in that scenario.

Purely out of interest, FlipFlop, would you have granted the option?

Was the prop's performance from a 22 drop out? If it was he needn't have bothered as he'd have the option of the scrum just by grounding the ball (immediately). Or was it just a kick from within the 22. Sorry if I've misread it.

Dave Sherwin
12-01-15, 13:01
Sorry - just a kick from within the 22. Bad typo of "quick" for "kick" - too early in the morning over here!

Lee Lifeson-Peart
12-01-15, 14:01
Sorry - just a kick from within the 22. Bad typo of "quick" for "kick" - too early in the morning over here!

Ah yes - sunrise in the Carribean - and here was me not realising all the fun I was having doing an hour's work before the sun came up to reveal another, windy, shitty day. :biggrin:

Thanks for clarifying Dave.

FlipFlop
12-01-15, 15:01
Dave - has he taken possession of a rolling ball, or grounded a ball?
You don't need to lift a ball up to have possession, and you can have possession without grounding it, and ground it without possession, but I struggle to see how a player lying down can't lift the ball, even a little..... Especially a prop, who if his feet are on the ground, then his belly will be a pivot point, so quite easy to lift arms as his shoulders will be some way off the ground. :biggrin:

So what would I give? If I thought he had possession, then the option. If I thought he grounded it, then 22.

Lots of players know there is an advantage if some part of their body is beyond the dead ball line, but most will not know what, or why, and won't know the difference between grounding and taking possession. I'm not rewarding a player for getting it half right!

Dave Sherwin
12-01-15, 15:01
Dave - has he taken possession of a rolling ball, or grounded a ball?
You don't need to lift a ball up to have possession, and you can have possession without grounding it, and ground it without possession, but I struggle to see how a player lying down can't lift the ball, even a little..... Especially a prop, who if his feet are on the ground, then his belly will be a pivot point, so quite easy to lift arms as his shoulders will be some way off the ground. :biggrin:

So what would I give? If I thought he had possession, then the option. If I thought he grounded it, then 22.

Lots of players know there is an advantage if some part of their body is beyond the dead ball line, but most will not know what, or why, and won't know the difference between grounding and taking possession. I'm not rewarding a player for getting it half right!

This made me smile! To be honest, I rather suspect that the prop who had sprinted back all that way couldn't have lifted his arms up for love nor money due to exhaustion. We had to stop the clock to allow him to get all the way back to the scrum!

Taff
12-01-15, 20:01
But "IF" the ball was still moving (in in-goal) when the defender, with a foot over the dead ball line, had picked it up, then it would have been a scrum back option; even though the ball didn't actually go "through" the the dead ball line.
One of the quirks of the lawbook. You can make sure the ball goes through in-goal by standing over the dead ball line and picking up (not grounding) a moving ball which is still in-goal; or you can effectively make sure a ball goes direct to touch by standing in touch and catching a ball landing in-field etc. I've tried explaining it to some U15 players, but I don't think they all got it. :biggrin:


... PS Taff, you coming to Tigers Friday night?
Sadly not. :frown: Working Friday, Team Manager for an U15 Cup game on Saturday morning and reffing a Youth game in the afternoon.

I'll be watching on telly sat in front of the log fire with a whiskey. :pepper:


So if defender has foot over DBL and ball is still moving and defender presses down on ball. 22 or option?
No option - 22 DO only. The ball wasn't "kicked through". It was just grounded in-goal. If the straddler had picked up the moving ball - then there's an option.

JJ10
12-01-15, 21:01
Thanks for all the answers. Glad I got it right. Also very happy to have opened a new discussion; I can't help laughing imagining the sight of a prop lying down half in, half out, and waiting for the ball to reach him. Brilliant.

Dickie E
12-01-15, 21:01
So if defender has foot over DBL and ball is still moving and defender kicks the the ball over DBL or TiG. 22 or option?

JJ10
12-01-15, 21:01
So if defender has foot over DBL and ball is still moving and defender kicks the the ball over DBL or TiG. 22 or option?

For me at that point he is standing on one foot, touching a moving ball, thereby making the ball go "through" in goal... i guess option..... :chin:

Taff
13-01-15, 01:01
So if defender has foot over DBL and ball is still moving and defender kicks the the ball over DBL or TiG. 22 or option?
Personally, I would say 22m DO only.

The ball was kicked into in-goal by an attacking player and made dead. IMO there should be no scrum back option as the attacking player didn't kick the ball through in-goal. The attacking player put the ball in-goal, but it was the defender who kicked it out and made it dead. That's my logic anyway, and I'm sticking to it. :biggrin:

ChrisR
13-01-15, 01:01
Moving ball strikes object beyond DBL. Option. If the player has foot on/beyond DBL then just putting his foot on the moving ball meets the requirement as he is not grounding it.

Ground the moving ball. 22 DO, he made it dead in goal.

Stationary ball? 22 DO, he put it dead.

Phil E
13-01-15, 12:01
Moving ball strikes object beyond DBL. Option. If the player has foot on/beyond DBL then just putting his foot on the moving ball meets the requirement as he is not grounding it.

Ground the moving ball. 22 DO, he made it dead in goal.

Stationary ball? 22 DO, he put it dead.

The law says he has to pick it up. Shall we just stick to the law as written and stop making it up?

22.2 PICKING UP THE BALL
Picking up the ball from the ground is not grounding it. A player may pick up the ball in the
in-goal and ground it elsewhere in the in-goal

22.9 DEFENDING PLAYER IN IN-GOAL
(a) A defending player who has part of one foot in in-goal is considered to have both
goal.
(b) If a player with one or both feet on or behind the goal line, picks up the ball, which
stationary within the field of play, that player has picked up the ball in the field of
thereby that player has taken the ball into in-goal.
(c) If a player with one or both feet on or behind the goal line picks up the ball, which
motion within the field of play, that player has picked up the ball within in-goal.

OB..
13-01-15, 13:01
The law says he has to pick it up. Shall we just stick to the law as written and stop making it up?Spoilsport!

FlipFlop
13-01-15, 13:01
What happens if the player catches it, either direct or on the bounce? The players hasn't "picked it up", so....

:pepper:

ChrisR
13-01-15, 14:01
Phil E, I'm not making this up, just filling in the blanks left in law.

A player stands with one foot on or beyond the DBL (Dead Ball Line). The ball strikes him, he catches it or he picks it up. Are you saying that the ball has gone dead only in the last instance? Then how do you rule on the other two?

Ahhh, yes, pretend it didn't happen coz it wasn't stated exactly as in the good book.

The critical element is not whether he picks it up but whether it was staionary or moving.

Phil E
13-01-15, 14:01
The critical element is not whether he picks it up but whether it was staionary or moving.

But that critical element ONLY applies if he picks it up.

ChrisR
13-01-15, 16:01
A player stands with one foot on or beyond the DBL (Dead Ball Line). The ball strikes him, he catches it or he picks it up. Are you saying that the ball has gone dead only in the last instance? Then how do you rule on the other two?

Mate, you're ducking the question. How do you rule?

Phil E
13-01-15, 20:01
A player stands with one foot on or beyond the DBL (Dead Ball Line). The ball strikes him, he catches it or he picks it up. Are you saying that the ball has gone dead only in the last instance? Then how do you rule on the other two?

Mate, you're ducking the question. How do you rule?

If he catches or picks up a moving ball, it has gone straight out.
If it's caught it can't be 'not moving' so that that one done with.
If he picks it up and it's not moving, he has taken it back/in.
If he just dabs down on it, stands on it, falls on it, then he has made the ball dead....no options.

ChrisR
13-01-15, 22:01
If he catches or picks up a moving ball, it has gone straight out. Therefore 'option'.
If it's caught it can't be 'not moving' so that that one done with.
If he picks it up and it's not moving, he has taken it back/in. Agreed, 22 DO.
If he just dabs down on it, stands on it, falls on it, then he has made the ball dead....no options.

No, different strokes. "Dabbing down" I assume you to mean grounding with hand or arm as the ball is in contact with the ground (covered in law) and therefore the ball has not gone beyond the DBL so 22 DO. Playing the ball with his foot does not ground it but as the player had a foot in goal then the ball is considered to be beyond the DBL. That is why moving or stationary ball is relevant. Stationary, then taken back by the player and a 22 DO. Moving, it's the same as striking an object or player beyond goal so it's option.

You may not agree but that is my interpretation of the law and I'm not "making it up".

Phil E
13-01-15, 22:01
Playing the ball with his foot does not ground it

On that point you are correct, my bad.

Taff
13-01-15, 22:01
... Moving, it's the same as striking an object or player beyond goal so it's option.
Is it?

A player standing touch in-goal can still score a try provided he doesn't pick up the ball. Whether the ball is moving or not is irrelevant surely. :chin:

Dave Sherwin
13-01-15, 23:01
So to take the scenario I had, which was identical to the Ben Foden scenario from three or four seasons ago: a player lies full length on the floor with his feet over the dead ball line and waits for the ball to roll into his hands, which it does. Do I wait to see whether he picks it up (perhaps by standing up) or dabs it down? I was happy with calling this kicked through goal at the time, but perhaps I have learned a lesson and should have waited to see what he then did with it.

ChrisR
14-01-15, 02:01
Is it?

A player standing touch in-goal can still score a try provided he doesn't pick up the ball. Whether the ball is moving or not is irrelevant surely. :chin:

Yes, that is a specific exception and to score the ball must be on the ground and he must only apply downward pressure. He can't catch it off the ground then ground it.

Let's say the ball bounces in goal and a player, with a foot over the DBL, in one downward motion, palms the ball out of the air and grounds it. This is not a try because the contact with the ball occurred before the grounding, not simultaneously.

ChrisR
14-01-15, 02:01
So to take the scenario I had, which was identical to the Ben Foden scenario from three or four seasons ago: a player lies full length on the floor with his feet over the dead ball line and waits for the ball to roll into his hands, which it does. Do I wait to see whether he picks it up (perhaps by standing up) or dabs it down? I was happy with calling this kicked through goal at the time, but perhaps I have learned a lesson and should have waited to see what he then did with it.

No need to wait. By allowing the ball to roll into his hands and holding it as it contacts the ground he has grounded it (22.1(a)). No requirement for downward pressure, no dabbing needed. Unless he lifts the ball immediately. Then he has picked it up (22.2) and, as it was rolling he will get the option.

RobLev
14-01-15, 03:01
No need to wait. By allowing the ball to roll into his hands and holding it as it contacts the ground he has grounded it (22.1(a)). No requirement for downward pressure, no dabbing needed. Unless he lifts the ball immediately. Then he has picked it up (22.2) and, as it was rolling he will get the option.

I disagree with your thinking, although not the outcome (assuming that the attackers kicked it to him from the field of play).

He is not holding the ball at the outset; so by 22.1(a), if he is to ground the ball without downward pressure, he has to take possession first - "hold it" - and then he must touch the ground with it. Your interpretation seems to leave 22.2 with no room to operate, and gives the referee more decisions to make than are necessary.

As the player's feet are beyond the DBL, he is beyond the DBL. The ball has struck him, he has not picked it up; so 22.11(d) applies and it's gone dead beyond the DBL without reference to 22.9(d), so he gets the option:

When the ball touches the touch-in-goal line or the dead ball line, or touches...anyone beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead

It seems to me that 22.11(d) explains why 22.9(d) and (e) exist, and why they have different outcomes. A stationary ball that is picked up cannot be said to have struck the player picking it up, so the player picking it up is the one who has made the ball dead; whereas a moving ball being picked up by a player behind the DBL could be said to have struck him, and so he did not make it dead.

ChrisR
14-01-15, 12:01
Roblev, nice bit of logic. And simpler. You get my vote.

Taff
14-01-15, 18:01
.. As the player's feet are beyond the DBL, he is beyond the DBL. The ball has struck him, he has not picked it up; so 22.11(d) applies and it's gone dead beyond the DBL ...
Except that's not strictly true, is it? A player straddling the touchline can slap the ball and play continues provided the ball hasn't crossed the vertical "plane of touch".

Why doesn't the same apply to the DBL?

ChrisR
14-01-15, 21:01
Lets see, standing on the DBL, slapping the ball back into goal? Doh! Intentional knock-on, possible PT and YC. I wonder they don't do it more often.

The Fat
14-01-15, 23:01
Except that's not strictly true, is it? A player straddling the touchline can slap the ball and play continues provided the ball hasn't crossed the vertical "plane of touch".

Why doesn't the same apply to the DBL?

It does.
Discussed this late last year after SArefs got clarification from IRB re DBL to be treated the same as touch-in-goal line.

ChrisR
14-01-15, 23:01
Yes, my last post only considered a defending player playing the ball in goal but an attacking player could save a ball from going dead.

Taff
15-01-15, 00:01
Yes, my last post only considered a defending player playing the ball in goal but an attacking player could save a ball from going dead.
So you agree that an attacking player CAN straddle the DBL and tap the ball back before it crosses the vertical plane of touch.

RobLev
15-01-15, 10:01
It does.
Discussed this late last year after SArefs got clarification from IRB re DBL to be treated the same as touch-in-goal line.

For the specific case of scoring a try by standing in TiG (or, by the clarification, beyond the DBL) and putting downward pressure on a ball in in-goal, under 22.4(g), being beyond the DBL is treated the same as being in touch-in-goal:

http://www.sareferees.com/News/deadball-as-for-touchingoal/2830205/

It doesn't seem to be generalisable.

RobLev
15-01-15, 10:01
For the specific case of scoring a try by standing in TiG (or, by the clarification, beyond the DBL) and putting downward pressure on a ball in in-goal, under 22.4(g), being beyond the DBL is treated the same as being in touch-in-goal:

http://www.sareferees.com/News/deadball-as-for-touchingoal/2830205/

It doesn't seem to be generalisable.

Incorrect to this extent - "touch-in-goal" should read "touch or touch-in-goal".

ChrisR
15-01-15, 12:01
So you agree that an attacking player CAN straddle the DBL and tap the ball back before it crosses the vertical plane of touch.

I've been thinking about that. Should the DBL have the same properties at TiG and touch line? If so, then I agree with you, Taff.

RobLev
15-01-15, 15:01
I've been thinking about that. Should the DBL have the same properties at TiG and touch line? If so, then I agree with you, Taff.

Law 19 (Touch and Lineout) includes both a paragraph equating to 22.11(a) (not (d) - oops):

The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

and also a further paragraph dealing with the specific point Taff makes:

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

Law 22 includes (as 22.11(a)) the first quoted paragraph from Law 19; but not the second. That, with the various detailed provisions about what a player can do from TiG or beyond the DBL, seems to rule out reading the second quoted paragraph from Law 19 into Law 22.