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crossref
04-02-15, 17:02
I have a game coming up where I have ARs.
I have never used (or even been) - an AR before - Any tips ?

Balones
04-02-15, 18:02
As the name suggests they are there to assist you so I would suggest that that you write down in what ways you want them to assist you. Take this list to the match and tell them. How much you can tell them and allow them to assist may depend on their experience. At this stage just get them to mark touch, mark the 5s and 10s which is what you might tell club TJs to do. Above that imagine yourself on the pitch and ask yourself what help you would like and write this down. don't give them too much to do at this stage or you will confuse them and yourself. As you become more experienced you can add to the list. Try to be very specific about the assistance required.

Not Kurt Weaver
04-02-15, 18:02
I have a game coming up where I have ARs.
I have never used (or even been) - an AR before - Any tips ?

get your fees before match

The Fat
04-02-15, 19:02
I have a game coming up where I have ARs.
I have never used (or even been) - an AR before - Any tips ?

Comms or no comms?

Have you ever been a TJ?

Balones
04-02-15, 19:02
Being more specific -
Ask before the game whether your ARs have done the job before. They might be able to tell you how they can help you.
Comms will make a difference in the type of assistance they can give you.

From a practical point of view I used to work out some secret signals with my ARs so that they could attract my attention without making a big fuss of things when there were no comms.

Dickie E
04-02-15, 20:02
If ARs are a new experience for you then maybe so too for the players. Let the captains know pre-match that there will 3 pairs of eyes on them.

OB..
04-02-15, 20:02
I have assessed at several matches where there was a Team of Three, and the referee's pre-match brief to them was fairly long. I suggest you get the details from some suitably experienced person.

crossref
04-02-15, 20:02
If ARs are a new experience for you then maybe so too for the players. Let the captains know pre-match that there will 3 pairs of eyes on them.

I think that will be the case, and I like that.

Accylad
04-02-15, 21:02
If ARs are a new experience for you then maybe so too for the players. Let the captains know pre-match that there will 3 pairs of eyes on them.

I suggest you phrase this positively. Eg " we have a team of three today gents. These referees are here to help you not offend. They will be communicating with players close to them like wingers. Please ask your players to react to their requests. If there is no reaction it may be that the next thing I have in my ear is "blue 13 offside" and I will simply react by calling penalty advantage red, blue 13 offside. Please let us help you stay legal."

Rushforth
04-02-15, 22:02
The ARs do the obvious TJ duties with bells on. (1) covering touch, (2) standing behind the posts at goal kicks and perhaps (3) assisting on 10m/5m.

Where it gets interesting is (A) triangulation and (B) leading/trailing. These are two sides of the same coin, both of which mean you - as a team of three - are looking at the action from different perspectives. The leading AR is the one watching from the other side the referee is. Trailing means also focussing on action behind the back of the referee, such as late scuffles.

Remember flag into field is for referee alert only (for foul play) http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?signal_category=4. On the one hand, this means not having your AR use a flag in-field for indicating 5/10 metre lines. On the other, let them flap a flag around to get attention from medicos if you are happy - or unaware - for play to continue.

The Fat
04-02-15, 22:02
Crossref,
I will send you some AR specific stuff when I get home from work. Probably by PM.
There are some things being posted here that may make your job harder when being a To3 for the first time.
Cheers

Pinky
04-02-15, 23:02
Depends how long to the match. If time go on an AR course. You'll learn what the should do. Even if not, try and find out how experienced they are and what they expect to be doing. Should make your job easier, but probably takes a bit of getting used to. Depends on protocols. But at least you have eyes on the blind side and if comms U can get input on o/s, c&o fsd pass ko etc as well as watching both sides of scrum and a second opinion on straight throw ins. May also help with law if U have a senior moment. Meet them before hand for a chat if U can. Remember jt is a team of 3. Enjoy the experience!

menace
05-02-15, 00:02
Unfortunately crosssref I think you've cast the net too far for advice by asking it here. You'll get 10000 pieces of advice, of which only 3 things you'll probably manage to achieve. No doubt all the advice is sound and useful but you'll simply have too much from here to digest and make use of for your first time. But as it's your first time and you've never been an AR then it will be a challenge for you - one that you should embrace as a learning experience. My bet is that unless you have comms then you'll forget that you even have ARs and theyll both be like a shag on a rock!
From my experience on both sides..there is only one certainly and that is; as the ref YOU decide what you want from them...whatever that is, and just communicate it to them before the game. If you can do that then you'll have an effective team of 3.
(And just hope like hell you don't get an AR that thinks they are the referee!)

TheBFG
05-02-15, 09:02
don't try and referee any different than normal, if you think "oh I can just ref 15 to 15 cus the guys can look after that bit", things will go tits up for you!

Ref like you normally do but get them to watch for stuff behind your back (handbags, late hits etc) the stuff you'll miss on any normal Saturday when on your own.

Other than that the bits above about marking 10/5 etc goes with out saying (make sure they work together when they do that though!) and make it clear to them what you want called in, COE is mantra for the day :wink:

At the PMB it might also be worth the AR's looking for the wingers to have a quick word in that they will communicate with them about setting the 5/10m gaps as it's easier for the AR to speak to a winger than trying to get to the FH who could be 50m away.

Dixie
05-02-15, 10:02
Crossref, working with ARs is a skill that (like any other) takes time to develop. As a committed and capable solo flyer, you will find that your ingrained habits will not easily succumb to whatever you tell the To3 in the changing room. Equally, you need to ensure that your control of the game does not get watered down rather than enhanced by the extra vigilance. Accordingly, I'd keep it incredibly simple:

1) Be the TJ first and foremost.
2) Flag in any acts of Law 10 foul play, and (if PK against the side in possession) call my attention to your flag over the comms - pretty much the only use of comms required.
3) If we have handbags, be alert to players running in from a distance, and take their numbers so I can card them.
4) Do and say nothing that undermines my control of the game.

Good luck - and well done for getting a game of sufficient standing to warrant a To3.

Dixie
05-02-15, 10:02
theyll both be like a shag on a rock! Are you saying that they'll feel like a cormorant, or that they'll scuff their knees and graze their goolies?

I must say, unlikely though the latter sounds, I'm not sure the former is any more certain!

FlipFlop
05-02-15, 10:02
Best AR briefing ever heard (and it is on camera somewhere in the London Archives - it was the film I saw)
Along the lines of:
Ref to ARS: "First responsibility is touch, second is touch in goal, third is kicks at goal, fourth is foul play, finally the most important point is - don't make me look like a C@nt"
I still use a version of this - and it works well. If you don't have comms, it is about all you can prepare for, after that, it depends on how experienced and, importantly, how much you trust them. You carry the can ultimately, so if you don't know them, or don't trust them, then you need to assume they are not much better than club TJs. You can always relax this and trust them more as you gain more faith in them, but very hard to go the other way......

leaguerefaus
05-02-15, 10:02
Main point of the AR is to take heat off bad decisions you make - "that was the touchy's call, mate" ;)

The Fat
05-02-15, 10:02
Crossref,
sent you a PM

crossref
05-02-15, 12:02
thanks everyone - lots of useful suggestions. I'll report back later this monht after the game :)

menace
06-02-15, 08:02
Are you saying that they'll feel like a cormorant, or that they'll scuff their knees and graze their goolies?

I must say, unlikely though the latter sounds, I'm not sure the former is any more certain!

Both? :biggrin:

Dixie
06-02-15, 16:02
you'll forget that you even have ARs and theyll both be like a shag on a rock!


The common cormorant or shag
Lays eggs inside a paper bag
The reason you will see no doubt
It is to keep the lightning out
But what these unobservant birds
Have never noticed is that herds
Of wandering bears may come with buns
And steal the bags to hold the crumbs.

mark.lucas
07-05-15, 00:05
Most of us lower level refs don't have the luxury of ARs so a new experience for many I think.

It was interesting to a run the line for a Society ref when my son's team were playing (although my son was not there) and to test out the (non-radio) communications so I was a TJ but able to help him out with a couple of decisions where he wouldn't have trusted a non-official (but would ex-officio).

Subsequently I did the AR online course and then landed up as AR for for Maryland State U19 final. And the team worked. The referee said it was such a relief to have people you could trust (as opposed to a coach / partisan parent on the line).

There were a couple of times in-goal where I gave a discreet thumbs up and the whistle blew.

Dickie E
07-05-15, 00:05
Most of us lower level refs don't have the luxury of ARs so a new experience for many I think.

It was interesting to a run the line for a Society ref when my son's team were playing (although my son was not there) and to test out the (non-radio) communications so I was a TJ but able to help him out with a couple of decisions where he wouldn't have trusted a non-official (but would ex-officio).

Subsequently I did the AR online course and then landed up as AR for for Maryland State U19 final. And the team worked. The referee said it was such a relief to have people you could trust (as opposed to a coach / partisan parent on the line).

There were a couple of times in-goal where I gave a discreet thumbs up and the whistle blew.

Always nice to be part of a team that works well.

Over here, at junior grades, the team gets a competition bonus point if they provide an accredited AR - usually a dad who has done the course specifically for this purpose.

One of them quipped last Saturday that he was more valuable to the team than his son was :)

menace
07-05-15, 00:05
One of them quipped last Saturday that he was more valuable to the team than his son was :)

Obviously because he could manufacture a result where his son couldn't! Nice one. :pepper:

Drift
07-05-15, 02:05
Main point of the AR is to take heat off bad decisions you make - "that was the touchy's call, mate" ;)

Do they see the bus coming before you throw them under it?

Fatboy_Ginge
01-08-15, 20:08
I was part of a TO3 last year at the Oktoberfest 7s. We had 4 referees per pitch, 1 refereeing, 2 running touch and 1 acting as pitch marshal to keep scores etc. We all rotated jobs as well, the ref went to pitch marshal, one running touch became the ref and the PM went onto the touch line. It was nice to be able to check my call if I missed something in the middle and also if I was running touch then the ref could check with me if unsure. A good example was a blatant forward pass missed whilst I was telling a player to wind his neck in. The AR flagged me on it and a potentially game changing situation was avoided.

Browner
13-08-15, 11:08
'less - Gentle' nudging can still be ignored !

http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/08/nigel-owens-not-straight-if-you-want-it.html

Sadly, if anyone wants to see why WR struggles to enforce the "fair contest" - this is it :shrug:

The Fat
13-08-15, 12:08
'less - Gentle' nudging can still be ignored !

http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/08/nigel-owens-not-straight-if-you-want-it.html

Sadly, if anyone wants to see why WR struggles to enforce the "fair contest" ethos of - this is it :shrug:

And Nigel only said it 3 times!!!

After the set call, the scrum is not square and stable and the ref is intent only on getting the ball in no matter what.

menace
13-08-15, 13:08
And Nigel only said it 3 times!!!

After the set call, the scrum is not square and stable and the ref is intent only on getting the ball in no matter what.

But that's his rod for his own back?!

That is NOT NOs call...FFS it's right in front of the ref and he's looking at the 9 feeding it so he has at least a better look at it than NO.
I find that is NO not assisting but trying to referee the game! I think that was unprofessional by NO. He knows better and should shut up. All its shown is that the AR thinks the referee is incompetent.

ddjamo
13-08-15, 13:08
But that's his rod for his own back?!

That is NOT NOs call...FFS it's right in front of the ref and he's looking at the 9 feeding it so he has at least a better look at it than NO.
I find that is NO not assisting but trying to referee the game! I think that was unprofessional by NO. He knows better and should shut up. All its shown is that the AR thinks the referee is incompetent.

totally agree. now nige has put doubt in the ref''s head and he may starting thinking about it when he should be managing his own standard.

crossref
13-08-15, 13:08
presumably that was broadcast by mistake.

chrismtl
13-08-15, 14:08
I agree. As an AR, I only ever send in a call once and let the ref choose to do what they want with the information I provide. I've ignored calls by ARs before because what I saw was fine in my eyes and with the way I was reffing the game. Had an AR been telling me a call repeatedly, I'd probably have shut my mic off to get them out of my ear.

I also don't understand how we got the AR mic on the video? Was someone holding a parabolic mic towards NO the whole match to catch whatever he said? In my opinion, it's good to have the ref mic'd so that the people at home can know what's going on and understand the calls. That being said, the AR's are there to assist the ref and what they say shouldn't be broadcast as it could potentially lead to confusion for the viewer if they're expecting the ref to now call everything that they hear.

OB..
13-08-15, 15:08
Do we know what the referee's pre-match brief to NO was?

FlipFlop
13-08-15, 15:08
Not even sure it was not straight. The hookers had to strike the ball. The timing was good, and the foot was in teh tunnel when he took the ball.

Perhaps you could argue the foot was up early, but that is the sort of scrum we really want to be seeing. Hooker takes foot or the ground. Gets benefit of timing, but loses the 8-7 pushing contest.

Quite rightly the Ref ignores NO. (IMHO)

menace
14-08-15, 01:08
Do we know what the referee's pre-match brief to NO was?

I doubt it would be 'hey guys...make sure you repeatedly tell me when the feed is not straight when I'm on the feeding side...I really need that info cause that's clear and obvious'.


Not even sure it was not straight. The hookers had to strike the ball. The timing was good, and the foot was in teh tunnel when he took the ball.

Perhaps you could argue the foot was up early, but that is the sort of scrum we really want to be seeing. Hooker takes foot or the ground. Gets benefit of timing, but loses the 8-7 pushing contest.

Quite rightly the Ref ignores NO. (IMHO)

I'd say the feed was under the eyes of the LH. But not clearly crooked, I agree.

Dickie E
14-08-15, 02:08
But that's his rod for his own back?!

That is NOT NOs call...FFS it's right in front of the ref and he's looking at the 9 feeding it so he has at least a better look at it than NO.
I find that is NO not assisting but trying to referee the game! I think that was unprofessional by NO. He knows better and should shut up. All its shown is that the AR thinks the referee is incompetent.

Yes, good refs do not necessarily make good ARs

Dickie E
14-08-15, 02:08
And Nigel only said it 3 times!!!



I'm OK with that. Once the AR decides something needs to be communicated then make sure it is heard.

Jacko
14-08-15, 08:08
I also don't understand how we got the AR mic on the video? Was someone holding a parabolic mic towards NO the whole match to catch whatever he said? In my opinion, it's good to have the ref mic'd so that the people at home can know what's going on and understand the calls. That being said, the AR's are there to assist the ref and what they say shouldn't be broadcast as it could potentially lead to confusion for the viewer if they're expecting the ref to now call everything that they hear.

It varies by broadcaster. Some just have ref mic, others choose to put the AR feed in too. Always safest to assume you're being listened to - your voice is public property at that level.

TheBFG
14-08-15, 10:08
This got a good airing on the social media sites. Bad example by NO IMHO. That was always the refs call and he should never had said anything! :nono:

IF the ref takes up a TH position and the put in is on the AR's side then maybe he can call it, but NO is not even in shot.

I've voiced before than NO always looks pi$$ed off when he's give an AR role, far from me to say it, but he seems to give the "I'm too good for this role impression" :shrug:

OB..
14-08-15, 11:08
I doubt it would be 'hey guys...make sure you repeatedly tell me when the feed is not straight when I'm on the feeding side...I really need that info cause that's clear and obvious'.I have sat in on AR briefings and it is not uncommon to hear "leave not straight calls at lineouts and scrums to me". However he might well have asked for input if he was the opposite side to the scrum half, which is when they are most likely to cheat.

menace
14-08-15, 11:08
I have sat in on AR briefings and it is not uncommon to hear "leave not straight calls at lineouts and scrums to me". However he might well have asked for input if he was the opposite side to the scrum half, which is when they are most likely to cheat.

My point exactly....NO gave the call when the ref was on the feeding side. Very unlikely the ref would have asked for AR to assist with that call and if the ref was silent about his wish in that then NO should have said nothing.

OB..
14-08-15, 18:08
My point exactlyNot really. My point is that we cannot really judge without knowing what the AR briefing was - and we don't.

menace
14-08-15, 23:08
Not really. My point is that we cannot really judge without knowing what the AR briefing was - and we don't.

You're right, we shouldn't hypothesise what was said. We don't know.
What I do know is that clip made BOTH of them look a little bit foolish. An elite TO3 fail layed out before the public.

OB..
15-08-15, 11:08
You're right, we shouldn't hypothesise what was said. We don't know.
What I do know is that clip made BOTH of them look a little bit foolish. An elite TO3 fail layed out before the public.Agreed.