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winchesterref
09-02-15, 20:02
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/31319836

Well. An extraordinary defensive effort!

OB..
09-02-15, 21:02
"The referee arrived more than an hour after the game's scheduled kick-off, by which time the Soignies coach and some players had gone home.However, they still fielded 15 players and one replacement, choosing to play - and gain the point awarded for a defeat - rather than forfeit the match and earn no points."

Surely they could appeal to the organisers?

Dickie E
09-02-15, 21:02
Well. An extraordinary defensive effort!

they certainly had lots of practice.

And well done for getting close enough for a dropped goal :pepper:

Browner
09-02-15, 22:02
Interestingly , the scorecard has a Row/option for a 'handicap' , presumably the system exists there?

So, should Wales have +10 for their next Twickenham visit? : )

PS...Soignies missed a trick, if they'd kicked the ball out on the full at each restart, and then concocted x5/6/7 resets per scrum, there would only have been time for 150 point defeat.

You gotta laugh though, cos it looks like ref initially forgot to include their 3 pts !!!

Browner
09-02-15, 23:02
Duplicated.

crossref
10-02-15, 07:02
So turning to a new angle on this, if you were refereeing a game like that, would you keep going for eighty minutes? From the reports the away team were simply standing aside and letting the winners score at will. That's not a game of rugby, As a volunteer referee I have better things to do than run up and down counting to 350..

colesy
10-02-15, 09:02
So turning to a new angle on this, if you were refereeing a game like that, would you keep going for eighty minutes? From the reports the away team were simply standing aside and letting the winners score at will. That's not a game of rugby, As a volunteer referee I have better things to do than run up and down counting to 350..

That's an interesting question. In the last four weeks, I've had two 100+ scores (not like the match being discussed here where one team essentially refused to participate but simply because one team in each match were dreadful). Merit table points at stake in both matches and in tables where points difference might count at the end of the season, so you have to keep going until the bitter end. What's the solution? I'd be interested to hear from others on this.

crossref
10-02-15, 10:02
I have had a 100 pointer and an 80 pointer earlier in the season. I don't have any problems with those - one was a friendly and we called it early. The other was a merit table and as you say the winning team wanted the full points difference so we play the whole eighty. Stupid merit table rules if you ask me - there should always be a max points difference that can be scored, otherwise the top of the table can be decided by who managed to pummel the bottom two teams by the most points, and that's just no fun for anyone.. .and leads to team withdrawing, and then everyone is a loser.

didds
10-02-15, 11:02
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31319836

thoughts?

didds

FlipFlop
10-02-15, 11:02
already a thread on this....


NB: Threads Merged by Admin (Phil E)

didds
10-02-15, 11:02
there is? where? what's the title of the thread?

Its not shown in "nerw posts" at any time for me?

didds

didds
10-02-15, 11:02
"
Surely they could appeal to the organisers?

This way they kept both options ie again 1 point AND appeal.

didds

didds
10-02-15, 11:02
PS...Soignies missed a trick, if they'd kicked the ball out on the full at each restart, and then concocted x5/6/7 resets per scrum, there would only have been time for 150 point defeat.

I think 300+ points WAS their point. Not trying to minimise it. Though the 3 points for the drop goal sort of indicates some sort of attempt at some time to play presumably.

Are there any Belgian posters here that may know/be able to find out more?

didds

didds

didds
10-02-15, 11:02
What's the solution? I'd be interested to hear from others on this.


As I have oft suggested, but for the benefit of newer members, a 50 point margin mandatory full time would stop wierd/bizarre results potentially skewing league positions . A 50 point margin is highly unloikely to be reversed, and effectively the day's work has been done by that time.

Some basic caveats could be worked on maybe to allow by extreme conditions like strong winds and steep slopes maybe.

didds

didds
10-02-15, 11:02
ah - found it. hiding in a non-descriptive subject!

didds

didds
10-02-15, 11:02
One presumes they had to marginally accept involvement, as they obviously kicked off and seem to be fine with running back to retrieve the converted kick. Tho they may as well have left a player in goal for that!.

The winning oppo miuct have got bored by it. Did everybody on their team score a try I wonder?

If in such circumstances the deliberately losing team refused to KO, what would you as a ref do? Abandon the game presumably? (in this game I guess that abandonment would be seen as the same as a walkover so the 1 league point would be lost - purely a guess mind)


didds

ctrainor
10-02-15, 11:02
I hope all the players who turned out for the beaten team were registered or they may lose the 1 point they were hoping to get!
In our leagues the men in charge go through names for spelling mistakes and appear to gleefully dock teams points.

Ian_Cook
10-02-15, 11:02
ah - found it. hiding in a non-descriptive subject!

didds


How about a link then. I can't find it!

crossref
10-02-15, 11:02
One presumes they had to marginally accept involvement, as they obviously kicked off and seem to be fine with running back to retrieve the converted kick. Tho they may as well have left a player in goal for that!.

The winning oppo miuct have got bored by it. Did everybody on their team score a try I wonder?

If in such circumstances the deliberately losing team refused to KO, what would you as a ref do? Abandon the game presumably? (in this game I guess that abandonment would be seen as the same as a walkover so the 1 league point would be lost - purely a guess mind)


didds

If they refuse to KO that's an easy one - abandon game.

but if they just stand around like that, not playing, it's harder. I would abandon the game personally, I am sure. But this referee may have felt that it was all his fault anyway by turning up late, and was on the back foor now, and hardly in a positition to push his weight around after that.

Bunniksider
10-02-15, 12:02
How about a link then. I can't find it!

Here you go: http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18633-The-most-fun-trip-home-ever!

Ian_Cook
10-02-15, 12:02
Referee is over an hour late, and a large number of players thought the game was off as a result. Surely, this result ought to be wiped and the match either replayed or declared a 0-0 draw.

OB..
10-02-15, 12:02
I have had a 100 pointer and an 80 pointer earlier in the season. I don't have any problems with those - one was a friendly and we called it early. The other was a merit table and as you say the winning team wanted the full points difference so we play the whole eighty. Stupid merit table rules if you ask me - there should always be a max points difference that can be scored, otherwise the top of the table can be decided by who managed to pummel the bottom two teams by the most points, and that's just no fun for anyone.. .and leads to team withdrawing, and then everyone is a loser.
Agree.

In our Reserve Leagues a tie for position is resolved primarily by looking at the head to head between the teams. The one who scored the most points wins. We have never needed to go further than that.

However I saw a Gloucester League match where the score at 60 minutes was 104-0. The losing side suggested to the referee that he call the game off, since the score would stand. Their opponents said they wanted to play on because they needed the points. The referee eventually called it off for safety reasons 5 minutes early at 128-0. Then the winning captain tried to instruct me that the law said the referee had to get his agreement before making that decision.

(In the end the big score was to no avail.)

OB..
10-02-15, 12:02
I thought this was going to be about cricket!

crossref
10-02-15, 12:02
as a referee though - both teams said they want to play -- so clearly the ref, having been an hour late - will say yes and star the game. I would.

But then then when the game starts it's a bit tricky -- there's no real protocol for abandoning a game when one team isn't putting any effort in.

I can imagine the ref pulling in both captains, and saying 'wtf? shall we stop?' both captains saying 'play on'.

No doubt all three of them are wanting someone else to blink first and bring the whole sorry escapade to a close....

Dickie E
10-02-15, 13:02
already a thread on this....

its deja vu all over again

FlipFlop
10-02-15, 14:02
From having reffed in Belgium on exchange:

There is a Commissioner at every game, who handles licences etc. So they are responsible for much of the admin.

Also if their situation is like over here - forfeits come with other potential issues: possible relegation, removal from play-offs etc. So I suspect they lodged a protest before the game, objecting to it being played, and then to ensure the game was not declared forfeit, "played" the game.

I can imagine something very similar happening over here.

crossref
10-02-15, 14:02
I think the referee would need to take charge and call it -- perhaps at half time.

Wedgie
10-02-15, 14:02
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/feb/10/belgium-rugby-team-356-3-royal-kituro-soignies

Bunniksider
10-02-15, 14:02
3rd thread on this match. Congratulations ;-)

didds
10-02-15, 15:02
if the 1st one had a clearly identifiable subject then the 2nd thread wouldn;t have been started... and probably the 3rd...

didds

didds
10-02-15, 15:02
How about a link then. I can't find it!


This thread! "The most fun trip home ever!" didn't indicate that it was about a very high score in belgium.

Then Adam merged my immensely C&O sensibly named subject thread.

didds

didds
10-02-15, 15:02
If they refuse to KO that's an easy one - abandon game.

but if they just stand around like that, not playing, it's harder. I would abandon the game personally, I am sure. But this referee may have felt that it was all his fault anyway by turning up late, and was on the back foor now, and hardly in a position to push his weight around after that.

well, potentially he'd already pushed his weight around by insisting the game went ahead for league purposes.

Of course - there may be a regulation that says the game cannot be abandoned for referee non show for some time period that hadn't yet been completed. In which case this losing team only have themselves to blame for buggering off early.

didds

didds
10-02-15, 15:02
as a referee though - both teams said they want to play -- so clearly the ref, having been an hour late - will say yes and star the game. I would..

But that doesn't really fit does it? If BOTH teams wanted to play, then why would the way team have left early? If they insisted on playing only to ensure they didn't get docked league points etc - then why would several team mates etc have already left i.e. they knew that the game would still have to go on.

So we can only be left with

* the away team were under the impression the game would be abandoned
* on the ref's appearance somebody then insisted/proved the match had to go ahead.
* the losing team acquiesced merely to save league points being docked.
* the stand-by-and-let-them-score "tactic" was a protest ..
* but a protest against whom is unclear - their own club? the league rules?

If they were hacked off with the ref/the oppo/the regs... then still attempting to play "properly" would surely have still been a better idea? They presumably did enough to score a drop goal as it is.

there is more to this story I suggest, and it looks to me like an "internal" protest.

didds

Wedgie
10-02-15, 15:02
..and I did actually eyeball the thread titles to see if it had been posted. Ho hum.

didds
10-02-15, 15:02
and I pretty much destroyed my own argument as i worked that through!

I'm standing with the "internal protest" suggestion until more facts are available :-)

didds

crossref
10-02-15, 16:02
the drop goal is strange.

But recall that the winning team must have taken one kick off - perhaps that's the clue. Winning team, leading about 160-0 at half time., kicked off the second half, someone in the losing team caught the ball, and the wining team just stood around as their opponents had. So the catcher, most likely a forward, ambled forward and had a go at drop goal.

Bunniksider
10-02-15, 16:02
if the 1st one had a clearly identifiable subject then the 2nd thread wouldn;t have been started... and probably the 3rd...

didds


..and I did actually eyeball the thread titles to see if it had been posted. Ho hum.

I thoroughly agree regarding the original thread title and please see my winky smiley. No offence intended.

crossref
10-02-15, 16:02
if the 1st one had a clearly identifiable subject then the 2nd thread wouldn;t have been started... and probably the 3rd...

didds

What do we want?
- Descriptive Thread Titles!

When do we want them?
- every thread, ref!

didds
10-02-15, 16:02
why not a try? Tho I can see the delicious irony in scoring a DG in such circumstances and spurning the try.

But then the home side would have to have kicked off again after the DG... so why not repeat the situation themselves then?

Or the receivers allowed the ball to just lay around and didn;t claim it - so why would they have the first time.?

didds

Browner
10-02-15, 16:02
To divert from this thread title (, whatever it may be now ?!?!)

So , traffic (or other) forces referee to be very late, mobile communications fail ( for whatever reason) how long are players supposed to hang around awaiting a referee? How long before they all pack off for home?

Anyone know ?

Browner
10-02-15, 16:02
& is there provision to play 'handicap' rugby in Belgium ? Scorecard suggests so, but when would this be used?

crossref
10-02-15, 16:02
why not a try? Tho I can see the delicious irony in scoring a DG in such circumstances and spurning the try.

But then the home side would have to have kicked off again after the DG... so why not repeat the situation themselves then?

Or the receivers allowed the ball to just lay around and didn;t claim it - so why would they have the first time.?

didds

I dunno, Didds, but we do know that at amateur level drop goals are as rare as hen's teeth. I remember a thread here wher ref after ref said they had never ever given one, and many of us have never reffed a game where one's even been attempted. So I think it must have been something uncontested, one way or another.

FlipFlop
10-02-15, 17:02
And for more information - Top level in Belgium is about a Level 7, possibly a level 6 in RFU equivalent, depending on the exact teams.

My money on the drop goal is - kick off, is knocked on, scrum taken (uncontested?), Fly half drop kicks it rather than runs it.

Knowing admin stuff that is similar here to there, as a ref - I am finishing a game. It makes my life so much easier. No paperwork, no issues raised, etc. The game was completed - over to the Disciplinary and Competition Commission. Not my fault Guv'nor.

crossref
10-02-15, 17:02
I think I'd rather deal with the paperwork than be on the field for eighty minutes watching that fiasco!

Phil E
10-02-15, 17:02
I have now merged all three threads on this subject into one...AND changed the title to satisfy everyone (hopefully).

Lee Lifeson-Peart
10-02-15, 19:02
..and I did actually eyeball the thread titles to see if it had been posted. Ho hum.

Look at!! :mad:

irishref
11-02-15, 09:02
It seems Soignies are claiming the game...?1

RobLev
11-02-15, 09:02
It seems Soignies are claiming the game...?1

Do you have a link?

crossref
11-02-15, 09:02
according to this report
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/66029416/belgian-rugby-club-soignies-plans-appeal-against-3563-defeat-to-rivals-kituro

it wasn't even the original ref -- they found a substitute ref, who presumably dropped everything to rush there only to put up with 80 minutes of that nonsense. What a waste of his time.

Bunniksider
11-02-15, 10:02
From that report: "Despite their defeat, Soignies are still third in the league, a point ahead of Kituro although now inevitably with a vastly inferior points difference."

You don't say!! :pepper:

FlipFlop
11-02-15, 10:02
Having spoken to a contact in the Belgium Refs - this appears to be just the surface issue of a much larger issues, which are happening over there. Contact not willing to say much about this. Lots of people unhappy (before, and after) the game in Belgium Rugby and Refs!

crossref
11-02-15, 10:02
Having spoken to a contact in the Belgium Refs - this appears to be just the surface issue of a much larger issues, which are happening over there. !

much as didds suspected, above.

didds
11-02-15, 10:02
This is LOADS better than the dross churned out as "drama" on TV :-)

didds

FlipFlop
02-03-15, 11:03
More on this lovely story.

The ref who was supposed to do the game, missed an email. So didn't show up. He has been banned for 1 year by the Belgium Federation. The Belgium refs are angry........
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Club-des-Arbitres-Belges-de-Rugby-Club-van-Belgische-rugby-scheidsrechters/171058066252190

Browner
02-03-15, 16:03
Locally here, the responsibility is on the Home Club to make verbal contact with the referee to confirm his appointment.

Very ccassionally one will fail ( or mistakenly rely on unacknowledged electronic text ) , but its mostly its a communication protocol that works well, and takes the onus off of the referee.

crossref
02-03-15, 16:03
same for us.
but on the other hand if by the day before I have received no contact I chase them.
and whatever happened I'd NEVER just no show - at least not without covering myself by discussing it with the appointments team first.
but no doubt this guy did as well. cock ups like this are invariably where a combination of things go wrong at the same time

OB..
02-03-15, 17:03
I did once arrive at a match and no ref turned up. Apparently they had confirmed with him by phone as usual. I never found out what went wrong.

Two club members refereed one half each. Fortunately nobody asked an for an assessment. The players were happy enough, but I would have given 2 SDs. Positioning was hopeless as was law knowledge. Perhaps we are too hard on ourselves?!

FlipFlop
02-03-15, 17:03
But could you imagine if due to an admin oversight you didn't go to a game (I understand there was an email "cancelling all games" that was later retracted) and so got a 1 year ban?

1 year ban is the same as the MAXIMUM for verbally abusing a referee
1 year ban is the same as the MAXIMUM for punching, kicking, elbowing, stamping, all forms of dangerous tackling, hair pulling
1 year ban is the same as the MAXIMUM for spitting
1 year ban is the same as the MAXIMUM for racial abuse

crossref
02-03-15, 18:03
But could you imagine if due to an admin oversight you didn't go to a game (I understand there was an email "cancelling all games" that was later retracted) and so got a 1 year ban?

1 year ban is the same as the MAXIMUM for verbally abusing a referee
1 year ban is the same as the MAXIMUM for punching, kicking, elbowing, stamping, all forms of dangerous tackling, hair pulling
1 year ban is the same as the MAXIMUM for spitting
1 year ban is the same as the MAXIMUM for racial abuse

Oh completely.
Now if a ref deliberately conspired to do this, to punish a club for some slight, then that would be worth a ban.
But on the assumption this is just a cock up, then it's hard to see why any ban is appropriate at all.

Decorily
02-03-15, 19:03
BAN............bloody hell, what about making him do extras!!

buff
03-03-15, 03:03
I think the ban is the straw that broke the camel's back. I get the impression that the Belgian ref's society is seriously unhappy. Flip, do you have any idea what this

"Cette dynamique, ce soutien et cette structure ont été entièrement détruits depuis juin 2014."

is all about?

FlipFlop
03-03-15, 10:03
I do have an idea yes, but not anywhere close to the whole story.

There was (to put it simply) an internal fight in Belgium rugby (not ref society - the Belgium Federation). Between the (simply put) Flemish (Dutch) and the Walloons (French). The result was that the new incoming political element ripped up the structures in place, and put in place new structures, bring the independent Ref Soc under federation control. Lots of people not happy. And as a result of this - lots of those involved in running the Ref Soc, are no longer involved. I understand that several of the active ref committee are no longer involved in Belgium rugby as a result.

It wasn't as if the old Ref Soc wasn't successful - they have been one of the most successful Ref Socs in Europe - getting more than their fair share of refs into Europe Comps, highly successful at recruiting new members, very good at PR, etc.

buff
04-03-15, 02:03
The success under their old system was quite obvious from the facebook post. I can understand why they would be angry.

irishref
04-03-15, 08:03
At least they're not bankrupt in Belgium ☺

viper492
09-04-15, 05:04
Did the ref/association appeal the ban at all?