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Taffy
11-02-15, 19:02
This from today. Under 19, so because one forward is in the sin bin, each team has to be 7 in the scrum to match.

So initially no Number 8. Then the black left hand flanker moves to number 8 amidst some howls from the red team.

I say "play on". We are matched in numbers, do we need to be matched exactly in positions?

RobLev
11-02-15, 19:02
This from today. Under 19, so because one forward is in the sin bin, each team has to be 7 in the scrum to match.

So initially no Number 8. Then the black left hand flanker moves to number 8 amidst some howls from the red team.

I say "play on". We are matched in numbers, do we need to be matched exactly in positions?

In a 7 youth scrum, you cannot have a #8; from the IRB Under 19 variations:

Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or a forward player leaving the field because of injury.

...

If a team is incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum, the scrum formation must be as follows:

If a team is without one forward player, then both teams must use a 3-4 formation (i.e. no No.8).

crossref
11-02-15, 20:02
Taffy, you really really just need to sit down read the Laws!

didds
11-02-15, 20:02
its not clear in the OP- did the flanker play at flanker for the first scrum, then start at #8 at a subsequent scrum, or did he start at flank, ball in, pushing and shoving commenced, then he moved to 8?

If the former - what roblev said. if the latter PK for unbinding I would imagine!

didds

thepercy
11-02-15, 20:02
U19 scrums must always be equal numbers and be symmetrical.

Waspsfan
11-02-15, 22:02
You shouldn't be doing u19 games if you can't be bothered to read the u19 section of the law book.

Even post game you still haven't read up on it.

FlipFlop
12-02-15, 10:02
As someone looking to get promoted (according to other threads) you sure make your life difficult. If you were watched in this - basic law error. In other threads - basic law errors.

This law error is also a safety issue.

I suggest you RTFM. Take some of the online quizzes. Whatever it takes for you to get the TLotG into your head. Because repeated law errors, will hit your credibility, and will stop any promotion prospects.

When I started out - I had a law book in my bag. If I was not certain, I read it after the game. Then in the bar I could say sorry (and learn), or be confident I was right, and why. Either way - next time - I knew I got it right. I suggest you do something similar.

Taffy
12-02-15, 10:02
As someone looking to get promoted (according to other threads) you sure make your life difficult. If you were watched in this - basic law error. In other threads - basic law errors.

This law error is also a safety issue.

I suggest you RTFM. Take some of the online quizzes. Whatever it takes for you to get the TLotG into your head. Because repeated law errors, will hit your credibility, and will stop any promotion prospects.

When I started out - I had a law book in my bag. If I was not certain, I read it after the game. Then in the bar I could say sorry (and learn), or be confident I was right, and why. Either way - next time - I knew I got it right. I suggest you do something similar.

Calm it guys.

Of course it's a basic law error, but so many laws and frequently when something "new" happens you might have read it, but it doesn't always mean you retain it!

Jerome Garcia presumably knew the law about hands in the scrum on Friday at Cardiff....presumably the AR did as well, but it was still missed. Even I picked up on that one. At the end of the day we are amateurs doing the best we can and we are going to forget things from time to time. I'm not afraid or ashamed to admit that. And even knowing the laws on a particular occasion, can I recall it in the heat of the match? Not always I have to admit.

Still learning.

Browner
12-02-15, 10:02
Even post game you still haven't read up on it.

Taffy,
I doubt any posters get any pleasure in lambasting(?) or disheartening you, and your willingness to ask this forum seems to demonstrate a willingness to improve, but Waspy is giving good advice ....... Study and learn both before and after each match scenario unfolds.

In my early days I'd make a written note of any issue and immediately seek out to self study to self answer.

Age grade variations are mostly safety related, and therefore imperative.

Taffy
12-02-15, 18:02
Taffy,
I doubt any posters get any pleasure in lambasting(?) or disheartening you, and your willingness to ask this forum seems to demonstrate a willingness to improve, but Waspy is giving good advice ....... Study and learn both before and after each match scenario unfolds.

In my early days I'd make a written note of any issue and immediately seek out to self study to self answer.

Age grade variations are mostly safety related, and therefore imperative.

Appreciate that. I think sometimes the comments are just a bit patronizing............and this will sadly dishearten any new refs from posting questions that are deemed stupid.........we are all supposed to be on the same page here!

Dave Sherwin
12-02-15, 18:02
I do agree that this should be a place where people can raise queries without fear of being berated. Of course, the answer to some questions will seem very obvious to more experienced refs and there may even be a measure of surprise that someone hasn't looked up the answer before posting the question, but none of that is a reason to give the questioner a hard time. If you don't like answering basic questions, it is free to you to ignore the thread - that causes no upset to anyone. Others will be happy to point the questioner in the right direction. One day, we can all hope that Taffy will be helping other new referees. On the other hand, Taffy, I do heartily suggest keeping the law book to hand - ALL of us have occasional blanks and it's great to be able to check them for yourself.

SimonSmith
13-02-15, 02:02
I agree, and disagree.

This must be a place where questions can be raised. And I think that when it comes to things like management or positioning, we are supportive.

But at some stage, the repetitive nature of basic law questions will be called out. And that's OK

FlipFlop
13-02-15, 10:02
My point was that Taffy has expressed (in other threads) a desire to be promoted, and to move up the ranks. This is different to a newbie starting, and having some issues.

We have all answered qus from Taffy that seem a little "basic", but there comes a point when someone who wants to progress needs to grab the initiative. To me Taffy does not seem to want to do that, fails to look up simple issues in the law book, hasn't prepared for a game correctly etc.

To point out that someone should be taking the initiative, should be looking things up, etc. is not being patronizing, or lambasting. It is pointing out the obvious. And by picking up the law book and finding the answer, you also read other laws, find new bits you didn't know, and remind yourself of some of the other laws. And by solving issues for yourself, you will learn far more than being fed them from other people.

So if someone wants to progress, and has stated such, I expect that the queries from them are of a different sort compared to the "I ref my son's team because there is no-one else" type ref.

Also - sometimes people need a kick, and I'm a blunt person. This is why I'm not a coach!

didds
13-02-15, 11:02
Also - sometimes people need a kick, and I'm a blunt person. This is why I'm not a coach!


My name is Didds.

I hug trees.

didds

Phil E
13-02-15, 11:02
Taffy

I think the problem some people are getting a little short with you is because you have asked basically the same question just three weeks ago, and were told that it is important you learn this, because its a safety issue.

You don't seem to have taken on board how important it is, and 3 weeks after your first post you are asking questions that were answered in that post.


http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18573-One-short-in-the-scrum&highlight=


One short in the scrum
From today. College match, under 19's. The Black number 8 is off on a yellow card. They request the opposing number 8' drops off at the next scrum so that scrum numbers are equal. I'm a bit caught but say yes. Was this right?


Taffy - you really need to know these sorts of very basic Laws!

U19 and below scrums must always be equal, and must pack in specific formations. This is a safety thing, and being safety related is one of the few issues where a coach would be entitled, pretty much bound in fact, to demand you stop play immediately and fix it, making you look very silly.

Here are the u19 laws http://laws.worldrugby.org/?variation=1


Taffy

This really is something you need to know BEFORE you go on the pitch. There is no excuse for not being prepared in terms of knowledge. Get two copies of the laws and put one in the toilet. When on the throne read up the laws. Go through them again and again.

Taff
13-02-15, 16:02
... I say "play on". We are matched in numbers, do we need to be matched exactly in positions?
Yes.

The scrum must be symmetrical. I assume the logic is that if it isn't symmetrical, there is a greater chance of it collapsing. And you don't take chances with kids.

The teams don't get a choice in how they set up the scrum either, as the pattern is set out for you. Eg

1 down - lose a No 8
2 down - lose both Flankers
3 down - lose the entire back row.
4 down - "It ain't gonna happen" as they say. You can't have a scrum with less than 5 players in it anyway.

One thing you should be aware of (in Wales anyway) and it caught me out recently is what happens outside the scrum. In Gods country, U19 teams must have equal numbers at the start of the game. At U15 and below they must have equal numbers throughout the game - RCs and YCs excepted. At Youth ie above U15s if one team loses a player through injury and doesn't have a replacement, the other side doesn't have to drop a player. I made an Youth side lose a player recently when I needn't have. Lesson learnt.

OB..
13-02-15, 16:02
My name is Didds.

I hug trees.

diddsThat is an anagram of "eight ruse", which seems a more likely message. :)

Pegleg
13-02-15, 17:02
Indeed we can all ask questions BUT repeatedly asking the same or very similar questions is odd to say the least or questions where the law book is, unusually, clear and obvious. Especially from an ambitious ref.

Taffy
13-02-15, 18:02
Indeed we can all ask questions BUT repeatedly asking the same or very similar questions is odd to say the least or questions where the law book is, unusually, clear and obvious. Especially from an ambitious ref.

Calm it guys. Last question was different although it related to the same set piece. I did read the law after the match about the matching numbers but didn't (yep my fault) go on to read the rest of it. I know most of you guys like some Taffy bashing, and yes I should have read the rest of it before asking the question. But I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Yours Taffy.


Ambition dwindling rapidly....and not expecting a phone call from the World Cup organisers (well not until 2019 anyway).

Taff
14-02-15, 00:02
Personally, I am not a great fan of individual unions being allowed to set their own laws for U19 games. IMO it causes confusion when we don't need it, because what applies in my neck of the woods could be totally different to another Ref just over the border, and even worse ... when it comes to the internet, there are no borders as this forum proves day in, day out. Eg in this thread alone, we have people from England, Wales, Switzerland, New Zealand and Australia contributing.

The WRU Pathway notes are very good, and I thought I knew them, but although I have a quick glance at them before every U19 game, you can get caught out. The ironic thing when I asked one team to drop a player to equalise numbers, was that the coaches knew an off-duty Ref on the sideline and asked him if I was right. Sadly, he confirmed that I got it right - it turns out we were both wrong. Luckily for me, the side disadvantaged by my mistake were stuffing the opposition, and won comfortably anyway.

Luckily, the WRU Pathway notes can be summarised quite easily - there are only 4 or 5 variations that we need to remember for each game. I assume it's the same in England.

dave_clark
14-02-15, 11:02
The ironic thing when I asked one team to drop a player to equalise numbers, was that the coaches knew an off-duty Ref on the sideline and asked him if I was right. Sadly, he confirmed that I got it right - it turns out we were both wrong. Luckily for me, the side disadvantaged by my mistake were stuffing the opposition, and won comfortably anyway.


i'd like to think that the off-duty ref would have backed your call regardless of what you'd said. well, within reason anyway.