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fzxjkg
08-03-15, 02:03
I have had this situation occur several times. Blue with the ball, Red comes in to tackle, however goes for the tear away, hands on the ball not the player. Blue loses feet and is hanging in the air from the ball, still no tackle. To me, the tackle rules, no release do not apply, tackle was never made. We now have a player (Blue) off their feet preventing play by hanging on the ball.

Thoughts?

The Fat
08-03-15, 05:03
If blue is not on the ground, i.e. body/knee/arse etc, there is no tackle and it is still general play. If the situation stays like that and a blue team mate binds to the ball carrier to help him out, then we have a maul so let's see where that goes. If no blue team mate/mates arrive and more red players come into contact, it is still general play until blue ball carrier gets at least a knee on the ground so that tackle law takes over.

crossref
08-03-15, 10:03
Can red really hold the ball completely distinct from the ball carrier
I'd say that in practice red is holding both the ball and the ball carrier and therefore if the ball carrier goes to ground we have a tackle

The Fat
08-03-15, 11:03
Can red really hold the ball completely distinct from the ball carrier
I'd say that in practice red is holding both the ball and the ball carrier and therefore if the ball carrier goes to ground we have a tackle

Egzackery

Dickie E
08-03-15, 12:03
Egzackery

Ed's brother?

Pinky
08-03-15, 12:03
If blue loses his footing and goes to ground and U don't feel a tackle has taken place, ie red has c&o grasped only the ball, then blue has to let go as he is off his feet.

OB..
08-03-15, 14:03
If Blue is holding on strongly enough to prevent Red ripping the ball, then realistically Red must be holding at least one of Blue's arms as well as the ball. When Blue goes to ground, that's a tackle and both must release.

The Fat
08-03-15, 15:03
If blue loses his footing and goes to ground and U don't feel a tackle has taken place, ie red has c&o grasped only the ball, then blue has to let go as he is off his feet.

The OP implies that blue has not gone to ground.

"Blue loses feet and is hanging in the air from the ball, still no tackle."


If and when it does become a tackle, red will have to release first anyway. Blue must then exercise one of his options.

fzxjkg
08-03-15, 16:03
looks like the consensus is the way I read it. Once Blue is off his feet, Red should have the opportunity to play the ball - still no tackle. I blew it up ... especially in the most recent case because Red had a clear path to the try zone. The coach lost his mind claiming it was still a tackle and Red should have been penalized for not releasing in the tackle. I said - no tackle, no requirement to release, general play. Didn't go over well to say the least. Thank you all for the sanity check!!!

ChrisR
08-03-15, 17:03
No tackle? Then why blow it up?

fzxjkg
08-03-15, 17:03
Because Red had an opportunity to play the ball and score, Blue was off their feet and preventing Red from playing. Obstructing play.

crossref
08-03-15, 17:03
looks like the consensus is the way I read it. Once Blue is off his feet, Red should have the opportunity to play the ball - still no tackle. I blew it up ... especially in the most recent case because Red had a clear path to the try zone. The coach lost his mind claiming it was still a tackle and Red should have been penalized for not releasing in the tackle. I said - no tackle, no requirement to release, general play. Didn't go over well to say the least. Thank you all for the sanity check!!!

On the contrary I think the consensus here is that once blue is off his feet it was a tackle..

Dixie
08-03-15, 18:03
If blue loses his footing and goes to ground and U don't feel a tackle has taken place, ie red has c&o grasped only the ball, then blue has to let go as he is off his feet. Disagree. The best you can find for this contention is the definitions to law 14. Those are generally accepted to mean that a player on the ground is out of the game. We have no player on the ground here. If yo contend that the player is "off his feet", you also have to apply that to every other player who is held above the ground - including jumpers at lineouts and restarts - and we can all watch pro matches every day to realise that simply is not the case.


looks like the consensus is the way I read it. Once Blue is off his feet, Red should have the opportunity to play the ball - still no tackle. Assuming that Blue's knees are not on the ground, this is correct as far as there being no tackle. Open play. However, you then go astray ... particularly as regards Red having rtights to play the ball without hindrance
I blew it up ... especially in the most recent case because Red had a clear path to the try zone. ... I said - no tackle, no requirement to release, general play. Your words were accurate - open play, no tackle, no requirement (on either player) to release. So why did you blow the whistle????
Didn't go over well to say the least. Not surprised!
Thank you all for the sanity check!!! You are in denial :wink:


On the contrary I think the consensus here is that once blue is off his feet it was a tackle..

Let's unpick the OP. Blue is in possession of the ball. Red grabs it and only it [allegedly]. This is indeed possible - but it's very unlikely. The probability is that he also has a little bit of the Blue player in his grasp - call it his pinky. Make life easy for yourself - assume that to be the case whenever this situation arises. You are the sole judge of fact on the field of play. To call it any other way makes your life pretty much impossible - far too picky an approach for the complex dynamism that is Rugby. We now need to be very clear about what happens to Blue ball carrier.

According to the OP, Blue loses his feet is is dangling from the ball but without his knees touching the ground - no tackle. If accurate, this is correct - but it's very, very unlikely. At best, in a wrestle Red will have his arms at chest height. Blue will have the ball on his chest and under his shoulder. Even tat his height, his knees are liable to hit the ground unless the tackler is 30cm taller than him. But if Blue dangles from arms' length - his knees definitely hit the ground. Tackle. I'm thinking tackle 90% probable - call Tackle Made and give Blue the chance to place the ball. However, OP disagrees and he was there. Let's move on with the 10% prospect of no tackle. We now need to think whether either player is doing anything illegal.

Let's look at Blue ball carrier, and the contention that as he was "off his feet", he should release the ball. This does not hold water. There seems to be agreement that this is open play. In open play, a player is permitted to have both feet off the ground and to continue the game. Situations in which this occurs are: a) running (by definition, involves both feet being simultaneously off the ground); b) jumping for a high ball; c) being lifted and supported by colleagues while claiming a restart (or technically any other kick, though in practice rarer than hens' teeth). I suggest it was also legal for Matt Tait to try to offload the ball while he was being carried along by Gavin Henson. All these players are "off their feet" according to the OP's contention, as supported by Pinky. But a PK in any of them would be as bizarre as this one was. The contention cannot be supported.

That being the case, we have no player on the ground to rule "out of the game"; no tackle; open play; and no offence. Play on.

Camquin
08-03-15, 18:03
Surely only if he is held once he goes to ground.
If the ball carrier is not held a tackle has not taken place by the definition in law 15.
Of course a definition of held would be useful but I currently cannot find that.

The only definition I can find for brought to ground is that one or more knee is in contact with the ground.
Which leads me to ask - though OB would probably say I shouldn't - what happens if a player is knocked onto their back but keeps their legs upin the air?

I am sure somewhere, but I cannot quite find it, the law does state that to be on your feet, you must be supporting your weight just with your feet. I think that if the only thing keeping you from the grass is the fact you are clinging to another player you are off your feet. If you are clinging to the ball, the other person is presuamably now the ball carrier.

So I think Red simply ripped the ball from Blue and their was never a tackle.
Blue can hang on, and at that point if another Blue bound there would be a Maul, but none did so it isn't.

Once Blue goes off their feet, I think they have to release.
If Red had held Blue, they would have to release, but Blue would have to let them contest the ball.
But if Red did not hold Blue, Red can keep hold of the ball.

If the ref call 'Tackle' then it is a tackle and all must release - as ref is sole judge of fact.
In that case I would expect Blue to release Red and the ball, Red to release the ball, Blue to enter through the gate and pick up the ball.

But the law says very little about a player ripping the ball from the ball carrier.
A pedant would say that it is illegal as law 7 does not permit it.
The cleverer pedant points to the clarifications to law 12.

PS I started writing this before DIxie posted - and did not see his post until I hit submit.

fzxjkg
08-03-15, 18:03
Hence the question, appreciate the contributions. And yes, I have seen several times players hanging on to a ball when it is attempted to be ripped by a much larger player. Some may feel it is very unlikely, but I have seen it several times. No clear guidance in the laws, so I tried to logic it out.

OB..
08-03-15, 19:03
Hence the question, appreciate the contributions. And yes, I have seen several times players hanging on to a ball when it is attempted to be ripped by a much larger player. Some may feel it is very unlikely, but I have seen it several times. No clear guidance in the laws, so I tried to logic it out.Yes, ripping is not uncommon. So let them struggle. Both are acting legally.

Law 14 is clearly aiming to distinguish a player on his feet from one lying on the ground. It has nothing to do with being in the air, as other have pointed out.

fzxjkg
08-03-15, 19:03
Probably the best advice, let them work it out... thank you.

The Fat
09-03-15, 00:03
looks like the consensus is the way I read it. Once Blue is off his feet, Red should have the opportunity to play the ball - still no tackle. I blew it up ... especially in the most recent case because Red had a clear path to the try zone. The coach lost his mind claiming it was still a tackle and Red should have been penalized for not releasing in the tackle. I said - no tackle, no requirement to release, general play. Didn't go over well to say the least. Thank you all for the sanity check!!!

I think you are misinterpreting the responses. Maybe read them again and discuss further.

Chris_j
09-03-15, 00:03
The op describes a ball carrier held and "off his feet". If that isn't a tackle, what is?

The Fat
09-03-15, 01:03
The op describes a ball carrier held and "off his feet". If that isn't a tackle, what is?

The OP says the ball carrier has lost his footing and is "dangling " if you like (I am picturing him as a dead weight trying to get to ground) and grimly holding onto the ball.
If it is like that (feet dragging on the ground) or his feet are off the ground, no tackle has been completed. If a knee or his arse touch the ground whilst the red player has hold of him and the ball, then we have a tackle. If that happens, the red player must release first and if he is still on his feet and in the gate and goes for the ball THEN blue tackled player must release the ball to him.
While ever blue is held and off the ground, with no tackle as stated in the OP, it is open play and there is no need to blow it up and give red a PK

Chris_j
09-03-15, 01:03
I was focussed on this bit

I have had this situation occur several times. Blue with the ball, Red comes in to tackle, however goes for the tear away, hands on the ball not the player. Blue loses feet and is hanging in the air from the ball, still no tackle. To me, the tackle rules, no release do not apply, tackle was never made. We now have a player (Blue) off their feet preventing play by hanging on the ball.

Thoughts?

if the ball carrier is held and off their feet what do we have?

Chris_j
09-03-15, 01:03
It is either tackle (ball carrier brought to ground) or play on. Never a penalty against the ball carrier.

The Fat
09-03-15, 01:03
It is either tackle (ball carrier brought to ground) or play on. Never a penalty against the ball carrier.

Correct.
It was a poor choice of wording in th OP as saying the ball carrier is off his feet gives the impression he is on the ground rather than dangling/hanging.

Dickie E
09-03-15, 03:03
most likely outcome will be a maul as other players arrive.

RobLev
09-03-15, 05:03
I was focussed on this bit


if the ball carrier is held and off their feet what do we have?

The OP is very clear that the BC is not held.

OB..
09-03-15, 11:03
Blue loses feet and is hanging in the air from the ball


Can red really hold the ball completely distinct from the ball carrier
I'd say that in practice red is holding both the ball and the ball carrier and therefore if the ball carrier goes to ground we have a tackle


The OP is very clear that the BC is not held.Like crossref, I challenged the reality of the OP claim.

Even if you accept it as an academic hypothetical situation (and why would you want to?), I cannot see that either player is acting illegally. Being off his feet is a total red herring.

crossref
09-03-15, 12:03
I agree with OB.. I don't accept the idea that red can be holding the ball, but not the ball carrier - it's very unrealistic and unusual idea and no one else wathcing is likely to share that perception, so applying it only makes things difficult for yourself (as the OP demonstrated).

I think that the way to ref this is
1- take th eposition that red is holding the ball and the ball carrier
2- so if blue goes off his feet, it's a tackle
3- if blue remains on his feet, play on (very likely a maul will quickly happen)

Browner
09-03-15, 15:03
I agree with OB.. I don't accept the idea that red can be holding the ball, but not the ball carrier - it's very unrealistic and unusual idea and no one else wathcing is likely to share that perception, so applying it only makes things difficult for yourself (as the OP demonstrated).

I think that the way to ref this is
1- take the position that red is holding the ball and the ball carrier
2- so if blue goes off his feet, it's a tackle
3- if blue remains on his feet, play on (very likely a maul will quickly happen)

Yep player contact is usually associated with ball contact.
http://transform.fairfaxregional.com.au/transform/v1/crop/frm/storypad-zfqHCt7KfEAwVh47WpVybR/e9539998-1542-4a8a-88c4-83cf14a621d4.JPG/r0_5_2449_1610_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg
But if this was rugby , AND blue was able to remain stable & on feet AND only contact the ball not contact the player , then 'Mrs on knee' is required to release the ball - right??? ( albeit unlikely)

crossref
09-03-15, 15:03
:) gosh you must have spent a long time searching for that photo! That must be almost exactly what fzxjkg describes in the OP!

I'd play it as a tackle.

OB..
09-03-15, 19:03
Yep player contact is usually associated with ball contact.
But if this was rugby , AND blue was able to remain stable & on feet AND only contact the ball not contact the player , then 'Mrs on knee' is required to release the ball - right??? ( albeit unlikely)
With that amount of contact on the ball, there is no way green could be hanging in the air while held up by Blue (as described in the OP).

If that was rugby then Green has been tackled, and Blue is the tackle assist. Blue must release and can then go for the ball (provided she comes through the gate).

Dickie E
09-03-15, 22:03
I'd play it as a tackle.

me too

Browner
10-03-15, 14:03
With that amount of contact on the ball, there is no way green could be hanging in the air while held up by Blue (as described in the OP).

If that was rugby then Green has been tackled, and Blue is the tackle assist. Blue must release and can then go for the ball (provided she comes through the gate).

Then we disagree, the player heading to ground isn't in any way held , the ball might be, but that's not enough.

A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.
A ball carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place.

crossref
10-03-15, 14:03
Then we disagree, the player heading to ground isn't in any way held , the ball might be, but that's not enough.


which is, indeed, the view taken in the OP. And so ..


I blew it up [...] The coach lost his mind claiming it was still a tackle and Red should have been penalized for not releasing in the tackle. I said - no tackle, no requirement to release, general play. Didn't go over well to say the least

Browner
10-03-15, 14:03
which is, indeed, the view taken in the OP. And so ..

As long as the referee was consistent in his interpretation of this rare ( and subject to interpretation) occurrence during that fixture, then the coach should loosen his pressure release valve a tad.

The Fat
10-03-15, 15:03
The OP suggests that red has only ball but that blue ball carrier loses his footing and is hanging/dangling/levitating somewhere between the red player and earth whilst still holding the ball.
Can someone please show me a picture/video of a defender being able to support the weight of a ball carrier by having hands on only approximately 30% of the ball?
I would think it will be a much bigger task to find such evidence than producing the netball pic (although good effort by Browner to find that one).

Defender and ball carrier both have a death grip on the ball means there is contact in 99.9% of rugby cases for me and as such, it will be open play until either a tackle occurs or a maul forms. Let's be practical.

Browner
10-03-15, 15:03
The OP suggests that red has only ball but that blue ball carrier loses his footing and is hanging/dangling/levitating somewhere between the red player and earth whilst still holding the ball.
Can someone please show me a picture/video of a defender being able to support the weight of a ball carrier by having hands on only approximately 30% of the ball?
I would think it will be a much bigger task to find such evidence than producing the netball pic (although good effort by Browner to find that one).

Defender and ball carrier both have a death grip on the ball means there is contact in 99.9% of rugby cases for me and as such, it will be open play until either a tackle occurs or a maul forms. Let's be practical.

The need to micro analyse/interpret at elite level, has indeed buggered up such things for the grass roots game, I prefer a " taken to ground" rather than a "knee hair gets him sanctuary of being released" interpretation , this fits with a mauling wrestling contest for possession much better IMHO.