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View Full Version : Wales, v, Ireland - 14.03.2015



L'irlandais
14-03-15, 15:03
Game on.

Yer man from Gloucestershire in the middle.

L'irlandais
14-03-15, 15:03
12 and a half minutes gone. Ireland penalised at least 4 times for their players on the Welsh side of the breakdown not getting back on side quickly enough.

POC unhappy with that observation from Mr Barnes, as the Welsh players, off their feet on the Irish side of the ruck aren't all that swift either at getting out of the way. - Finally pinged them too.

L'irlandais
14-03-15, 15:03
Wales clear their line.

Wales on a warning for not rolling away after the tackle.

L'irlandais
14-03-15, 16:03
28 minutes of play : Ireland win a penalty. Sam Warbuton sin binned at the tackle. Green12 Robbie Henshaw, may end up being cited for a trailing knee at that action.

37 minutes of play : Green 10 taken out of it without the ball. Missed by the match referee.
Ireland still got the penalty, but Wales down to 14, were happy to give away 3 points, 5 meters from their own line.10.4 Dangerous play and misconduct

(e) Dangerous tackling.
Playing a player without the ball is dangerous play.

Sanction: Penalty kick

Targetting the number 10 maybe part of the game, but taking him out without the ball, probaly justified a card ; more than Red Captain's Yellow for not rolling away at the tackle anyway - 10.3 (c) Repeated infringements: standard applied by referee.

40 minutes of play : Green15 knocks-on, ball then played by Green 8. Referee awards a scrum. ?

L'irlandais
14-03-15, 16:03
Green 8 carries and pops inside to Green 15 on the burst but under presssure from Red5 the full-back fumbles the ball forward. Green 8 is the next player to play the ball, which is :

11.7 Offside after a knock-on

When a player knocks-on and an offside team-mate next plays the ball, the offside player is liable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.

Sanction: Penalty kick
not
12.1 The outcome of a knock-on = A scrum is awarded at the place of infringement.

Cagey so far, but in fairness Wales pulled off a great first half.

L'irlandais
14-03-15, 17:03
Try to Wales at 63 minutes of play.:wales: Their Supporters in full voice now.

55 minutes of play - Green Captain bending the match referee's ear yet again, about Red players not rolling away at the tackle. The tackler was actually contesting the ball at the tackle. (Already earned them a Yellow card in the first half - for repeat infringements. Where to now? A simple penalty) WB "as long as he let's go, he can contest the ball."

Result Referee penalises Green at the next breakdown ; in the Red Zone that's a bit of a let off for Wales. Does the Englishman take exception, to been spoken to by the Irish Captain? :-(

69 minutes of play. Penalty Try against Red for collapsing the maul on their goalline.
Huge call. WB certainly doesn't shy away from such decisions.

L'irlandais
14-03-15, 17:03
Wales full value for their win. Luke Charteris had the Irish Line-out in bits, Wales stealing 4 line-outs.

Wedgie
14-03-15, 20:03
12 and a half minutes gone. Ireland penalised at least 4 times for their players on the Welsh side of the breakdown not getting back on side quickly enough.

POC unhappy with that observation from Mr Barnes, as the Welsh players, off their feet on the Irish side of the ruck aren't all that swift either at getting out of the way. - Finally pinged them too.

Thought WB was pernickety(sp?) in the first quarter - for at least two of the Irish penalties, the man on the wrong side was lying still and not interfering with play. If I was red 9 I'd far prefer them lying still rather than wriggling, squirming and getting in my way. Then, when WB did decide to "even things up" the two red tacklers not rolling away had three green men on top of them - including the ball carrier!!

Commentators saying that this was all OK as "at least he was consistent". Consistent on the day between two teams, maybe. But not consistent from day to day. Tough quarter for the Irish, but great defence from the Welsh which got them the match.

FightOrFlight
14-03-15, 20:03
Barnes was very whistle happy in the first 10-15 mins.

He set a standard at the breakdown in this time that was not deliverable over 80 mins and as such he failed to do so. He changed his standards after this time. The problem was Wales were 9/12-0 up by this stage. The time he gave Irish players to roll away was much less than he was allowing the Welsh and he failed to sanction Welsh players not releasing quick enough in the tackle or slowing the ball down in the rucks. Consistency was a big issue in the first half.

He did YC Warburton for hands in the ruck after repeated infringements however on Ireland's very next visit to the red zone a few minutes later Lydiate went off his feet and killed quick Irish ball. Barnes sanctioned it but failed to give another YC for the wilful offence and continuation of the trend.

Scrums were a mess from a referee's point of view. Often had the packs set and waited a long time before allowing the ball in. Clear at this stage the Welsh props were moving their feet and making it unstable but this was not sanctioned. PKed Ireland for wheeling while the Irish pack was standing straight on while the Welsh wheeled off and the final PK to end the game at the scrum was a very poor call from his AR on the blind-side. Wales lost the shove, whip wheeled to close the openside and somehow won a PK.

In the final 15 he blew up at a scrum and signalled full arm for Ireland. Reddan was about to give it to Sexton to go down the line before Barnes (luckily) verbalised that it was a FK despite his full arm signal.

Not a great game from Barnes

JJ10
14-03-15, 21:03
Disagree. Thought he set a precedent in the first 25 which then allowed the game to flow - led to a brilliant last 35 minutes of rugby. Not sure how you can be unhappy as an Irish fan. 2 Yellows (both correct) and a pen try (also correct) in your favour! He didn't tolerate players slowing the ball down - at this level they are good enough to either move, or not be there in the first place, and that led to some good rugby. The Irish squandered chances (just as England did later against Scotland).

The FK he gave was clear - defintely was a cocked arm as i remember.

You can hardly blame him for his ARs call (if thats what you thought it was - couldn't hear what he actualy gave it for). Overall i thought he had a pretty good game. Certainly one of the better games of rugby I've watched for some time, and I think he had a hand in that.

Pegleg
14-03-15, 21:03
I didn't watch the game. Went for a lovely walk instead. I notice that from certain posters above, that the Irish seems to have been Saints today. Amazing.

FightOrFlight
15-03-15, 00:03
Disagree. Thought he set a precedent in the first 25 which then allowed the game to flow - led to a brilliant last 35 minutes of rugby. Not sure how you can be unhappy as an Irish fan. 2 Yellows (both correct) and a pen try (also correct) in your favour! He didn't tolerate players slowing the ball down - at this level they are good enough to either move, or not be there in the first place, and that led to some good rugby. The Irish squandered chances (just as England did later against Scotland).

The FK he gave was clear - defintely was a cocked arm as i remember.

You can hardly blame him for his ARs call (if thats what you thought it was - couldn't hear what he actualy gave it for). Overall i thought he had a pretty good game. Certainly one of the better games of rugby I've watched for some time, and I think he had a hand in that.

Wales had a lot of the possession in the first 15 and he blew Ireland off the park. He was quick to penalise and gave the player little time to move away if they fell the wrong side. Correct calls in law and no issue with the decisions themselves. Wales kicked the 4 PKs and were 12-0 up. The issue however was that he did not apply a consistent rule and so when Wales infringed similarly later on in the game he did not penalise it and chose to manage it with preventative refereeing...a fair way to do it if you do it for 80 mins but not if you did not start that way. On the balance of the last 65mins he gave Wales 4 VERY soft PKs and 12 points in the first 15.

He did tolerate Welsh players slowing the ball in the 30 phase attack Ireland had and he allowed it to an extent he did not allow with Ireland at any time in the game. 2 deserved YCs and a PT but he missed the YC for Lydiate killing the quick ball Ireland had to exploit a 4 on 2. It was the first visit after the Warburton YC and was as nailed on as you need.

The scrum PK at the end was for whip wheeling but he PKed the wrong team totally. Wales were under pressure and looked to wheel Ireland blind when the ball came back Ireland's side. It was Wales who whip wheeled and that was clear. Ireland dominated the scrum and were punished with 3 totally incorrect calls.

Pegleg
15-03-15, 09:03
Looking at the stats. Wales were awarded Four PKs in the firt 11 minutes at the breakdown. all were kicked (12-0) there was no card for repeated offending.

No I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs on WB's calls. For this discussion I'll take then as correct. So why not card?

This post is purely based on the facts nothing else. I here Irish posters moaning about Barnes here. How maight things have gone if you were 12-0 down after 11 minutes and then players the next 10 with a man down.

Planks and motes gentlemen.

Adam
15-03-15, 12:03
Wales had a lot of the possession in the first 15 and he blew Ireland off the park. He was quick to penalise and gave the player little time to move away if they fell the wrong side. Correct calls in law and no issue with the decisions themselves. Wales kicked the 4 PKs and were 12-0 up. The issue however was that he did not apply a consistent rule and so when Wales infringed similarly later on in the game he did not penalise it and chose to manage it with preventative refereeing...a fair way to do it if you do it for 80 mins but not if you did not start that way. On the balance of the last 65mins he gave Wales 4 VERY soft PKs and 12 points in the first 15.

He did tolerate Welsh players slowing the ball in the 30 phase attack Ireland had and he allowed it to an extent he did not allow with Ireland at any time in the game. 2 deserved YCs and a PT but he missed the YC for Lydiate killing the quick ball Ireland had to exploit a 4 on 2. It was the first visit after the Warburton YC and was as nailed on as you need.

The scrum PK at the end was for whip wheeling but he PKed the wrong team totally. Wales were under pressure and looked to wheel Ireland blind when the ball came back Ireland's side. It was Wales who whip wheeled and that was clear. Ireland dominated the scrum and were punished with 3 totally incorrect calls.

He put a Wales player in the bin for exactly the same offence after Wales had infringed similarly on a number of occasions.

It was clearly an AR call in the last play.

TheBFG
16-03-15, 10:03
Agree thought Barnes had a good game. He's taken a lot of stick for the PK that finished the game, but it was obvious that came from the AR, but do agree it was a huge call to make and as a ref not one that I'd be happy for an AR to call?

As a neutral I thought it was a great match and TBH most of the -tive stuff I've seen has come from the "green camp" :shrug:

Shelflife
16-03-15, 11:03
Well as one ver much in the green camp I have to say that I have to quarrel with Barnes, I thought he had a good game, sure there were decisions that went against us and there were decisions that went our way, thats the nature of the game.

Wales were just better on the day and fully deserved the win, Barnes was a non issue for me and I cant understand anyone saying otherwise. At one stage we had a 4 on one overlap in the backs when we were on the 5m line and on two occasions the forwards picked and went instead of letting the ball out for an almost certain try.

Wales defended like demons and took their chances.

L'irlandais
16-03-15, 20:03
Shelfish,
It's the first time I heard the Irish coaching staff suggest the referee was inconsistant.
Paul O' Connell aslo hinted he thought as much post match.

JJ10
16-03-15, 22:03
Rare praise! Well deserved imho. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-v-ireland-six-nations-8844325

Drift
16-03-15, 23:03
Wales had a lot of the possession in the first 15 and he blew Ireland off the park. He was quick to penalise and gave the player little time to move away if they fell the wrong side. Correct calls in law and no issue with the decisions themselves. Wales kicked the 4 PKs and were 12-0 up. The issue however was that he did not apply a consistent rule and so when Wales infringed similarly later on in the game he did not penalise it and chose to manage it with preventative refereeing...a fair way to do it if you do it for 80 mins but not if you did not start that way. On the balance of the last 65mins he gave Wales 4 VERY soft PKs and 12 points in the first 15.

He did tolerate Welsh players slowing the ball in the 30 phase attack Ireland had and he allowed it to an extent he did not allow with Ireland at any time in the game. 2 deserved YCs and a PT but he missed the YC for Lydiate killing the quick ball Ireland had to exploit a 4 on 2. It was the first visit after the Warburton YC and was as nailed on as you need.

The scrum PK at the end was for whip wheeling but he PKed the wrong team totally. Wales were under pressure and looked to wheel Ireland blind when the ball came back Ireland's side. It was Wales who whip wheeled and that was clear. Ireland dominated the scrum and were punished with 3 totally incorrect calls.

Open your other eye.

BikingBud
17-03-15, 00:03
So in the 30+ phase period when Wales were slowing it all down, Ireland had a least 2 offsides, 51:34 and 52:33 match clock, due to players in front of the ball and a knock on 52.58. As well as holding the Welsh tacklers in trying to draw a penalty. At the end of the play, 53:11, Ireland were lucky to get the penalty as Wales 11 was on his feet and Ireland didn't release.

At the end of the day Ireland didn't play with their heads up and see where the points could be scored. I seem to remember the All Blacks complaining about Mr Barnes when they suffered from a similar affliction.

Ireland had the opportunities, they didn't take them. Wales had a chance when Heaslip rushed up and took it. A fantastic game and it will be interesting to see the influence on next Sat's games are, a very short turn-around after such an intense game.

menace
17-03-15, 04:03
I thought it was a great game, particularly 2nd half as others have mentioned. Cracking effort by both sides to the 81st minute!

I'm not a big fan of WB at all (in fact I cringe when he referees Wobblies) but thought this was the best game I've seen him perform. There was a lot he could have pinged from both sides (Ireland were particularly good at side entry to disrupt the threat to their ball when under pressure, and got away a with it). What I was surprised about was WB incessant talking at the breakdown. There's comminucation to avoid infringements and then there is communication for the sake of it. I think WB had too much of the latter. At this level I would have thought 'less is more' as they know what they need to do without the regular instructions. I can't recall any other ref at this level talking so much! But above that I wouldn't say WB made critical calls that determined the result.

Pegleg
17-03-15, 08:03
A former top coach (1970's england based. Told me that it is virtually impossible to keep the ball for 20+ phases unless you offend. Of course there are the (very) odd occasions. However, in reality, it's not going to happen LEGALLY very often. If certain posters feel that the "errors" by WB were all in failing to spot Red offenders but harsly spotting "Green" ones then I worry about their judgement.

I'm told it was a very entertaining game and that Ireland blew at least one massive overlap.

That's rugby folks.

didds
17-03-15, 08:03
The game has changed since the 1970s by a HUGE margin. 20 recycles today probably includes a LOT of "rucks" where the oppo only engage one (if that!) defenders... so the recycle is effectively uncontested and the recycling team don;t really have to do much to recycle the ball. So there is little that they can actually do that is illegal to start with. Well - aside from the standard sealing off tactic that no ref has the balls to call and hasn't for years.

didds

The Fat
17-03-15, 11:03
A former top coach (1970's england based. Told me that it is virtually impossible to keep the ball for 20+ phases unless you offend. Of course there are the (very) odd occasions. However, in reality, it's not going to happen LEGALLY very often. .

Have you seen the video doing the rounds where after the 80 minutes is up, the game continues for another 10 minutes on the last play as the attacking team go for 66 phases before being held up over the line? (dodgey call by AR maybe????). Hawick v Heriots
http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/03/4124/hawick-hold-out-heriots-for-an-incredible-66-phases-before-try-is-disallowed

Pegleg
17-03-15, 13:03
Have you seen the video doing the rounds where after the 80 minutes is up, the game continues for another 10 minutes on the last play as the attacking team go for 66 phases before being held up over the line? (dodgey call by AR maybe????). Hawick v Heriots
http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/03/4124/hawick-hold-out-heriots-for-an-incredible-66-phases-before-try-is-disallowed

Have you read my post?

Pegleg
17-03-15, 13:03
The game has changed since the 1970s by a HUGE margin. 20 recycles today probably includes a LOT of "rucks" where the oppo only engage one (if that!) defenders... so the recycle is effectively uncontested and the recycling team don;t really have to do much to recycle the ball. So there is little that they can actually do that is illegal to start with. Well - aside from the standard sealing off tactic that no ref has the balls to call and hasn't for years.

didds

So you confirm my point! Of course the case can be made that, teams don't contest because "we" allow the sealing off!

didds
17-03-15, 13:03
not sure what you meant pegleg :-)

Somebody claimed that side A couldn;t win 20 rucks in a row without cheating. I responded that rucks in the 70s were different beasts today, and 20 recycles now are likely to be principally uncontested. So the claim that the recycling side is cheating in today's version of the game is unfounded.

The caveats on that are of course that as part of the emporer's new clothes that has trickled down from the elite levels, players seal off in a manner that is contrary to the laws despite the weasel words about supporting their weight etc. This has amongst other things the resilt that some sides choose not to contest rucks as the sealing off makes it very difficult to meaningfully contest anyway.

So either "every" ruck is illegal in those 20, or (under today's interpretation) likely none of them are even close.

didds

Browner
17-03-15, 14:03
Rare praise! Well deserved imho. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-v-ireland-six-nations-8844325
Press praise rarely accompanies a loss !

Browner
17-03-15, 15:03
Have you seen the video doing the rounds where after the 80 minutes is up, the game continues for another 10 minutes on the last play as the attacking team go for 66 phases before being held up over the line? (dodgey call by AR maybe????). Hawick v Heriots
http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/03/4124/hawick-hold-out-heriots-for-an-incredible-66-phases-before-try-is-disallowed

In many ways this clip highlights what is wrong with the game, the pros playing on 'professionally cared for pitches' don't have to operate in these conditions .......... and why Rugbrawl league switched to the summer !!

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Phil E
17-03-15, 15:03
the pros playing on 'professionally cared for pitches' don't have to operate in these conditions ..........

I thought you said you had been to Welford Road :chin:

Browner
17-03-15, 16:03
http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/ireland-countries/six-nations-analysis-how-wales-resisted-ireland-for-49-phases-43942

49 phases :wtf:

As the code has headed from possession contests to possession uncontests, wait for some bright spark to suggest that their became limit on the number of possession contests that one team can have ......which further heads us to !!!!!!!!!!

Aaaaarrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh crucifix again being extracted from red silk box

Pegleg
17-03-15, 18:03
not sure what you meant pegleg :-)

Somebody claimed that side A couldn;t win 20 rucks in a row without cheating. I responded that rucks in the 70s were different beasts today, and 20 recycles now are likely to be principally uncontested. So the claim that the recycling side is cheating in today's version of the game is unfounded.

The caveats on that are of course that as part of the emporer's new clothes that has trickled down from the elite levels, players seal off in a manner that is contrary to the laws despite the weasel words about supporting their weight etc. This has amongst other things the resilt that some sides choose not to contest rucks as the sealing off makes it very difficult to meaningfully contest anyway.

So either "every" ruck is illegal in those 20, or (under today's interpretation) likely none of them are even close.

didds

Indeed. Either the possession is "protected" ( and we all know what that means) OR the defenders know that there is no point in competing. So the elite refs are (AGAIN) part of the problem. Of course the elite boys shout "not Material, there's no contest". The forget that there's no contest because they have played ther part in removing the contest {See the crooked feed in to the scum also}.

- - - Updated - - -


In many ways this clip highlights what is wrong with the game, the pros playing on 'professionally cared for pitches' don't have to operate in these conditions .......... and why Rugbrawl league switched to the summer !!

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

That's where the game is heading.

Browner
17-03-15, 21:03
That's where the game is heading.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3C3P_qJVlSriivuHfNA3UEqQsfkb-RYYHm8AVzt15lUCYaVvD7A

Lee Lifeson-Peart
20-03-15, 23:03
Just watching this game from last week.

Early on Leigh 1/2p takes a diving catch and never opens his mouth (apparent later from the slo mo) he then stands up and does the FK signal. Wayne Barnes awards the FK.

I notice top players often do the FK signal and I wonder do any of them call for the mark now as the law still prescribes.

Would you award the FK for a non called mark if a player just waved his arm after the catch?

Pegleg
21-03-15, 00:03
Just watching this game from last week.

Early on Leigh 1/2p takes a diving catch and never opens his mouth (apparent later from the slo mo) he then stands up and does the FK signal. Wayne Barnes awards the FK.

I notice top players often do the FK signal and I wonder do any of them call for the mark now as the law still prescribes.

Would you award the FK for a non called mark if a player just waved his arm after the catch?


No call heard no FK.

menace
21-03-15, 00:03
Would you award the FK for a non called mark if a player just waved his arm after the catch?

If it was clear and he wasn't being pressured by opposition and indicates immediately then sure - why not? Why be too pedantic about the obvious?
Though if it was a running catch then I'd like to hear the 'mark' so that I, and all others, know that the catcher isn't playing on.
Also If there was/is a contest then I think it's wise to call the mark so the ref knows the catchers intent (and for their own protection for when they hit the ground they can be protected from being smashed). For that reason I suspect players will do that anyway.

Browner
21-03-15, 00:03
Just watching this game from last week.

Early on Leigh 1/2p takes a diving catch and never opens his mouth (apparent later from the slo mo) he then stands up and does the FK signal. Wayne Barnes awards the FK.

I notice top players often do the FK signal and I wonder do any of them call for the mark now as the law still prescribes.

Would you award the FK for a non called mark if a player just waved his arm after the catch?

I accept that a hand wave signal is to ameliorate the risk of the referee not hearing a clear shout.

So, on that basis, I'm not bothered , anything that clearly indicates a mark has been taken is sufficient for me LLP, the more C&O then the better - why not ?