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BikingBud
21-03-15, 18:03
What a hit on the 10 but Saint Nigel did initially say he would go back for blues scrum. Then changed his mind :chin: and England get penalty and 3 pts.

Definitely dropped ball for France's try but what a crazy first half. What a crazy afternoon!

matty1194
21-03-15, 19:03
As I heard and saw it, Nige was happy with the initial Lawes tackle, which in my opinion was perfectly timed.

Following the stoppage for handbags, Nige did say that it would be a French scrum once he had a look at the replay, communication between the Nige and JL was that England were gaining possession at that last stoppage hence were last in possession of the ball therefore it was there put in.

winchesterref
21-03-15, 19:03
That is brain dead by Haskell

BikingBud
21-03-15, 20:03
Even crazier second half. Does show what all teams can produce if not stifled by a fear of losing.

Is gaining possession "in possession" or "not in possession"?

Stern words to "Christopher" from Nige bet his mother doesn't speak to him like that.

Billy V's try was also dropped so things level up. Shame the drop at Murrayfield wasn't also given.

Ian_Cook
21-03-15, 20:03
I thought Nigel Owens was excellent today. His superb game management allowed the players to play the game, and the result was what you saw, the most open and running 5N/6N game in decades.

I've been watching, first 5N then 6N, since I was a teenager; that's about 45 years. For much of that time, matches have been dour, uninspiring and sometimes downright boring. I don't recall ever seeing an England v France match as exciting as this one was.

Rushforth
21-03-15, 21:03
I've been watching, first 5N then 6N, since I was a teenager; that's about 45 years. For much of that time, matches have been dour, uninspiring and sometimes downright boring. I don't recall ever seeing an England v France match as exciting as this one was.

I think that is in part because NO got his game management right, but in part also because both teams wanted to play positive rugby most of the time. Superb TMO call (by a kiwi) for the White YC, incidentally - just about the only genuine negative play of the match was caught.

chbg
21-03-15, 22:03
Stern words to "Christopher" from Nige bet his mother doesn't speak to him like that.


I thought Nigel Owens was excellent today. His superb game management allowed the players to play the game, and the result was what you saw, the most open and running 5N/6N game in decades.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPs-1eax9rI

crossref
21-03-15, 22:03
I also thought Nigel Owens had a really great game.. The odds on him getting the RWC final must have shortened today.
But "Christopher" was one bad note in an otherwise good performance. He shouldn't patronise a captain like that.

Rushforth
21-03-15, 22:03
But "Christopher" was one bad note in an otherwise good performance. He shouldn't patronise a captain like that.

I agree to a large extent, BUT what was the alternative? There had been a bit of backchat from both captains, nothing to reverse a penalty for or anything like that. They want to get in to his ear? He will tell them he's not having any of it.

crossref
21-03-15, 22:03
The alternative is to call him Chris!

Rushforth
21-03-15, 23:03
The alternative is to call him Chris!

The other alternative is "Dissent number seven White", even if "Chris" is the captain.

Pegleg
21-03-15, 23:03
Your captain was starting to abuse his position. Nigel firmly put him in his place. Buck stops with the the player.

crossref
22-03-15, 00:03
Your captain was starting to abuse his position. Nigel firmly put him in his place. Buck stops with the the player.

NO was quite right to have a word with Robshaw. But to my mind for a ref to patronise the captain is abusing his position. . Ref and captain should have a bit of mutual respect. The captain can't answer back.

But enough said on this one from me. It's a nit pick, overall Nigel had an excellent game (IMO)

Ian_Cook
22-03-15, 01:03
I also thought Nigel Owens had a really great game.. The odds on him getting the RWC final must have shortened today.
But "Christopher" was one bad note in an otherwise good performance. He shouldn't patronise a captain like that.

No, I disagree with that. He could have gone to a lot of wordy explanations to tell Robshaw to back off; instead he said "Christopher" in a stern voice, and Robshaw knew exactly what he meant. That is good communication skills IMO.

I was also impressed with the clear communications between NO and the TMO Ben Skeen.

didds
22-03-15, 01:03
I also thought Nigel Owens had a really great game.. The odds on him getting the RWC final must have shortened today.
But "Christopher" was one bad note in an otherwise good performance. He shouldn't patronise a captain like that.

I thought it was really funny!

far more humerous than "Skipper, we talked about this before the game"

:-)

didds

Pegleg
22-03-15, 09:03
. Ref and captain should have a bit of mutual respect. The captain can't answer back.

But "Christopher" was doing so. "Nigel" used his name and got his point over. didn't stop robshaw bleating through thr game though.

IF I was to be critical of Nige (and other top refs) they allow too much chat / being told by players how to referee the game.

OB..
22-03-15, 15:03
NO was quite right to have a word with Robshaw. But to my mind for a ref to patronise the captain is abusing his position. . Ref and captain should have a bit of mutual respect. In Transactional Analysis terms, NO shifted from Adult-to-Adult to Parent-to-Child. That is not the best way to get co-operation, which is what he needs. Still only a minor irritation in the game as a whole.

Loļc
22-03-15, 15:03
I can't find an English article on this, but French staff cited Lawes for this tackle.

French article (http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/6-nations/2015/six-nations-courtney-lawes-cite-par-le-staff-des-bleus-pour-son-plaquage-sur-jules-plisson_sto4649431/story.shtml)

Pegleg
22-03-15, 15:03
I have a great dislike for Lawes. Here I feel he is not guilty.

Browner
22-03-15, 17:03
Clearly the French 10 hasn't been watching enough AP , if he had then he'd know that as soon as Lawes lines up in the 'get set' position opposite you then its time to take two/three steps back to give you time to shift the ball, coz courtneys coming.

When the ball is eventually passed Laws is fully committed ( in mid air?) to the tackle, so any post match citing is wrong IMO.

Browner
22-03-15, 18:03
http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/03/lawes-nearly-kills-plisson-with-this.html

Judge for yourself

ChrisR
22-03-15, 18:03
Stern words to "Christopher" from Nige bet his mother doesn't speak to him like that.

If it was his Mum it would be "Christopher Denis, you're not coming in this house with those muddy boots!"

Mat 04
22-03-15, 19:03
Deleted due to error.

Mat 04
22-03-15, 19:03
The other alternative is "Dissent number seven White", even if "Chris" is the captain.


No, I disagree with that. He could have gone to a lot of wordy explanations to tell Robshaw to back off; instead he said "Christopher" in a stern voice, and Robshaw knew exactly what he meant. That is good communication skills IMO.

I was also impressed with the clear communications between NO and the TMO Ben Skeen.

Same for me.

Ian_Cook
22-03-15, 19:03
I thought CL's tackle looked more like a shoulder charge, with wrapping as an afterthought once the damage was done.

Also, there is no actual definition in the Laws as to what constitutes a dangerous tackle.

LAW 10.4 (e) Dangerous tackling. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously.
Sanction: Penalty kick

It then goes on to give examples but they are not the only things that can be dangerous. For example a player driving head first or shoulder first into the ball carrier's knees is not specified, but I would certainly penalise it if I saw it. In RL this is known as a "cannonball tackle" and is specifically outlawed.

Ian_Cook
22-03-15, 20:03
FFS, have you guys seen the stats on this game....



England

France


7
Tries
5


7 from 7
Conversion goals
2 from 5


2 from 3
Penalty goals
2 from 4


90.0%

Kick at goal success
44.0%


0
Dropped goals
0


http://img.scrum.com/spacer.gif


Kick/pass/run


30

Kicks from hand
26


143
Passes
169


115
Runs
147


651

Metres run with ball
708


http://img.scrum.com/spacer.gif


Attacking


43% (39%/47%)
Possession (1H/2H)
57% (61%/53%)


47% (39%/54%)
Territory (1H/2H)
53% (61%/46%)


15
Clean breaks
14


24
Defenders beaten
25


9
Offloads
17


74 from 77 (96.1%)
Rucks won
101 from 109 (92.7%)


4 from 4 (100.0%)
Mauls won
4 from 5 (80.0%)


16
Turnovers conceded
12


http://img.scrum.com/spacer.gif


Defensive



161/25
Tackles made/missed
104/24


87.0%
Tackling success rate
81.0%


http://img.scrum.com/spacer.gif


Set pieces


3 won, 0 lost (100.0%)
Scrums on own feed
5 won, 2 lost (71.4%)


10 won, 1 lost (90.9%)
Lineouts on own throw
8 won, 1 lost (88.9%)


http://img.scrum.com/spacer.gif


Discipline


9 (0)
Penalties conceded (Freekicks)
11 (1)


1/0
Yellow/red cards






1359 metres run with the ball

49 missed tackles !!!!

OB..
22-03-15, 20:03
I thought CL's tackle looked more like a shoulder charge, with wrapping as an afterthought once the damage was done.
The video shows that just before contact he has both arms stretched forward. You cannot really wrap until after contact, so that was classic technique.

OB..
22-03-15, 20:03
FFS, have you guys seen the stats on this game....

My comment at the end of the game was that though exciting, it was more like a Barbarians game where defence can take second place to desperate efforts to score tries. Not classic rugby skills, but on balance it worked, though it felt vaguely unsatisfactory. I don't think we will see games like that in the RWC where not losing is the primary focus.

But it is fun to see us being criticised for producing a try fest. :hap:

Crucial
22-03-15, 20:03
By standard rulings, unless the arms situation is judged worse than in first view, then there is nothing to punish.

To me the interesting point is the judgement contradiction between this scenario and the 'player in the air' situations. We keep hearing that players on the ground should be expecting or anticipating a incoming player to jump and are therefore to blame for doing nothing but staying on the ground in the area the ball is coming down. If you apply similar logic here then Lawes should have expected or anticipated that the 10 was not going to have the ball by the time he hit him. At the moment he made his decision to launch himself it was quite obvious that the ball was going to be gone by the moment he made impact.
The danger here is created and executed by the tackler in going for a borderline big hit. The only reason the tackle was even required was to shut down a slim possibility of the BC stopping his pass and running, and that could have been covered by hesitating.

A player is very vunerable in the moment after the pass as the body has just released it's energy and is not set for a hit. The whiplash Blue 10 got from that hit was like a car crash.

I'm certainly not advocating even more 'softening' of the game. Many things being called as 'dangerous' are bemusing to the very players that are supposedly being protected. What I am calling out is the hypocrisy or uneven handling of two potentially dangerous situations. (mainly because I think the current way of ruling about the player in the air is ridiculous)

Crucial
22-03-15, 20:03
My comment at the end of the game was that though exciting, it was more like a Barbarians game where defence can take second place to desperate efforts to score tries. Not classic rugby skills, but on balance it worked, though it felt vaguely unsatisfactory. I don't think we will see games like that in the RWC where not losing is the primary focus.

But it is fun to see us being criticised for producing a try fest. :hap:


Sometimes when teams chance their arm with attack it makes the defence look poor and then has a flow on effect, especially in the latter stages as defences that have been run off their feet all game provide even more chances to attack.
That doesn't mean it is a poor game of rugby. Part of the criticism aimed in general at NH play is that there is a reluctance to have a crack and a negative defensive style ensues. Fans especially need to stop giving their teams a hard time when they play positively and lose because it is this underlying fear that holds them back.

Dixie
23-03-15, 20:03
To me the interesting point is the judgement contradiction between this scenario and the 'player in the air' situations. We keep hearing that players on the ground should be expecting or anticipating a incoming player to jump and are therefore to blame for doing nothing but staying on the ground in the area the ball is coming down. If you apply similar logic here then Lawes should have expected or anticipated that the 10 was not going to have the ball by the time he hit him. I disagree. If you apply similar logic, Plisson should have been penalised for standing in the way of Courtney as he jumped. :wink:

Nothing to see here - move along folks. Great tackle - any citing commissioner simply has to agree.

L'irlandais
24-03-15, 22:03
Nigel Owens' "Christopher was not disrespectful. It was exasperation at White's captain appealing against many of his decisions. The lack of respect, IF ANY, comes from the England captain's repeatedly not accepting the referee's call.

No fuss what so ever was made on these forum's when Wayne Barnes called a Welsh player "Son." during week 4 of this tournament. That actually was disrespectful, to somebody the same age as himself.

crossref
24-03-15, 22:03
Nigel Owens' "Christopher was not disrespectful. It was exasperation at White's captain appealing against many of his decisions. The lack of respect, IF ANY, comes from the England captain's repeatedly not accepting the referee's call.

No fuss what so ever was made on these forum's when Wayne Barnes called a Welsh player "Son." during week 4 of this tournament. That actually was disrespectful, to somebody the same age as himself.

I don't think there has been a 'fuss' about the Christopher remark, just an observation..

Try thinking this way: do you think NO would be likely adopt the 'Christopher' tone with, say, Richie McCaw ? or (in his time) Martin Johnson? Or do you not think that those individuals would have earned more respect?

NO gets away with talking down to players because he is NO, and we all love him, but it's not the best way to talk to a player, and to me the Christopher remark was a small blemish on his excellent performance - not a part of it.

I didn't hear WB's 'son' is there a clip anywhere?

L'irlandais
24-03-15, 22:03
...

I didn't hear WB's 'son' is there a clip anywhere?Welsh captain was yellow carded for hands in the ruck at 27 minutes 40 seconds into the game.
Ref says "Had your warning son." as he showed the card. Official clip (https://youtu.be/5dvi256WZ_M?list=PLg20xIo2wglKB6zkIIWOBKSFRbRsd9kB C)

Jamie Heaslip (not Green's captain was constantly appealing for penalties throughout the game. Could this behaviour not be penalised?)

Pinky
24-03-15, 22:03
Welsh captain was yellow carded for hands in the ruck at 27 minutes 40 seconds into the game.
Ref says "Had your warning son." as he showed the card. Official clip (https://youtu.be/5dvi256WZ_M?list=PLg20xIo2wglKB6zkIIWOBKSFRbRsd9kB C)

Jamie Heaslip (not Green's captain was constantly appealing for penalties throughout the game. Could this behaviour not be penalised?)
I think he probably said "Had your warning, Sam" It was Mr Warburton he carded.

crossref
24-03-15, 23:03
it's 'Sam'

Pegleg
24-03-15, 23:03
Nigel Owens' "Christopher was not disrespectful. It was exasperation at White's captain appealing against many of his decisions. The lack of respect, IF ANY, comes from the England captain's repeatedly not accepting the referee's call.

I agree The Englad Captain displayed a total lack of respect. Contiually questioning the Refs calls. Perhaps a card would have been a more respectful way of dealing with his moaning.





No fuss what so ever was made on these forum's when Wayne Barnes called a Welsh player "Son." during week 4 of this tournament. That actually was disrespectful, to somebody the same age as himself.


The Breadman was called SAM not SON.

Furthermore

Wayne Barnes: Born 20 April 1979

Sam Warburton: Born 5 October 1988

They are nowhere near the same age.

Pegleg
24-03-15, 23:03
I don't think there has been a 'fuss' about the Christopher remark, just an observation..

Try thinking this way: do you think NO would be likely adopt the 'Christopher' tone with, say, Richie McCaw ? or (in his time) Martin Johnson? Or do you not think that those individuals would have earned more respect?

I think he would have done so.

SimonSmith
25-03-15, 00:03
I don't think there has been a 'fuss' about the Christopher remark, just an observation..

Try thinking this way: do you think NO would be likely adopt the 'Christopher' tone with, say, Richie McCaw ? or (in his time) Martin Johnson? Or do you not think that those individuals would have earned more respect?

NO gets away with talking down to players because he is NO, and we all love him, but it's not the best way to talk to a player, and to me the Christopher remark was a small blemish on his excellent performance - not a part of it.

I didn't hear WB's 'son' is there a clip anywhere?

McCaw, in particular, is a far better man manager of referees than Robshaw, so i suspect a referee would never be placed in that position.

Pegleg
25-03-15, 00:03
McCaw, in particular, is a far better man manager of referees than Robshaw, so i suspect a referee would never be placed in that position.

Indeed.

OB..
25-03-15, 14:03
I agree The Englad Captain displayed a total lack of respect. A little OTT, but even if it weren't it would not justify a referee in descending to the same level.

However I agree it was a minor matter, just not one I want junior referees to copy.

Pegleg
25-03-15, 15:03
I disagree. Rpbshaw moaned about virtually every call. He moaned for the fully 80 despite repeated atempts to get him to shut it. HE have had a card long before I contemplated the "Christopher" approach. Nige's error was being to lenient.

L'irlandais
26-03-15, 22:03
I agree The Englad Captain displayed a total lack of respect. Contiually questioning the Refs calls..I didn't actually say White's captain "displayed a total lack of respect". I said "lack of respect, if any, ..."

I still hear "Son" on that clip, must be old age setting in.

WB has not to my knowledge fathered any children at the age of 8 years old. 36 and 27 are relatively close, compared to the spread of date's of birth on this forum.

Pegleg
27-03-15, 08:03
I apologise for mispreresenting you regarding the level of the lack of respect. However, the age comparrison is laughable.

crossref
27-03-15, 09:03
I still hear "Son" on that clip, must be old age setting in.
.

I don't think that's what WB said, but for avoidance doubt: I don't think it's good practice for referees to call captains 'son'.

Every week I do referee players who are young enough to be my son. I wouldn't patronise any player, let alone a captain, by calling him 'son'.

Pegleg
27-03-15, 10:03
Indeed. I'd have to call them grandson for chronological acceptability.:holysheep:

Taff
29-03-15, 00:03
I thought Nigel Owens was excellent today. His superb game management allowed the players to play the game, and the result was what you saw, the most open and running 5N/6N game in decades.
Exactly - In a league of his own. I hope he can keep that form going into and past the RWC. Surely he has to be favourite for the World Cup Final - unless Wales qualify for it obviously.


... I've been watching, first 5N then 6N, since I was a teenager; that's about 45 years. For much of that time, matches have been dour, uninspiring and sometimes downright boring. I don't recall ever seeing an England v France match as exciting as this one was.
Agreed; I don't ever remember a rugby day as exciting as that. Just goes to show how exciting the game can be, when the pressure is on to win by a big margin ... not just win.

Browner
29-03-15, 14:03
unless Wales qualify for it .......
.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ........ Oooh stop Taft, please, please stop ......my ribs are hurting......:pepper:

Actually I checked to see if the clocks had gone forward '3days' !

Browner
29-03-15, 14:03
..... I don't ever remember a rugby day as exciting as that....

I doTaff, 22nd November 2003. :biggrin:

Browner
20-04-15, 15:04
This is marketed as a "Courtney" , but the absence of a grasp makes it a 'shoulder charge' for me whereas at least CL grasped his opponent, although dissappointingly the media coverage clearly proclaims these cheap shot hits as good play.

the cross code influence can be seen 'polluting' RU defending tackles styles and these must increase concussion instances. Time to erradicate these 'cheap shot toughies'