PDA

View Full Version : "But it was my own man"



ctrainor
04-04-15, 22:04
Was AR today in cumbria cup semifinal.
Tackle and ruck in midfield green flanker comes flying in at the side to take men out with in my opinion a reckless swinging arm. So I call in green reckless yellow card.
As the bodies unravel green standoff is lying on the floor in agony.
Turns out the swinging arm hit him!
Lots of complaints you can't get binned for hitting your own man.
Oh yes you can.

leaguerefaus
05-04-15, 02:04
Bad call by you if that was the case IMO.

Phil E
05-04-15, 11:04
Bad call by you if that was the case IMO.

Rubbish.

The law is clear.
(h)
A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without use of the arms, or without grasping a player.

Mat 04
05-04-15, 12:04
Referee's duty of care extends to all players. You cannot allow a player to risk unnecessary injury to other players [outside the context of legal acts] no matter what colours they are wearing.

Taff
05-04-15, 22:04
... Lots of complaints you can't get binned for hitting your own man. Oh yes you can.
I reckon you got it right.

Definitions: Foul play is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, repeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.

4eyesbetter
06-04-15, 00:04
Bad call by you if that was the case IMO.

Hypothetical for you. #10 hits it up, two defenders go in and both have to lock the ball up. 10 stays on his feet making ground, nobody lends weight, tackle isn't effected yet. Third defender arrives with a massive son-of-Adrian-Morley scything swinging arm (it might as well have a neon sign pointing to it reading THIS IS A BAD SWINGING ARM) and either...

a). belts the ballcarrier squarely on the nose
b). makes forcible-but-glancing contact on the ballcarrier's forehead and then hits his mate's nose with most of the force of the swing
c). brushes the ballcarrier's head and then hits his mate's nose full-force
d). misses the ballcarrier entirely and hits his mate's nose full-force

What have you got?

Chris_j
06-04-15, 01:04
Rugby League

leaguerefaus
06-04-15, 06:04
Hypothetical for you. #10 hits it up, two defenders go in and both have to lock the ball up. 10 stays on his feet making ground, nobody lends weight, tackle isn't effected yet. Third defender arrives with a massive son-of-Adrian-Morley scything swinging arm (it might as well have a neon sign pointing to it reading THIS IS A BAD SWINGING ARM) and either...

a). belts the ballcarrier squarely on the nose
b). makes forcible-but-glancing contact on the ballcarrier's forehead and then hits his mate's nose with most of the force of the swing
c). brushes the ballcarrier's head and then hits his mate's nose full-force
d). misses the ballcarrier entirely and hits his mate's nose full-force

What have you got?
a. send off
b and c. hard to say without seeing it. a minimum of a penalty and a talking to.
d. play on.

A player is guilty of misconduct if he: (b) when effecting or attempting to effect a tackle makes contact with the head or neck of an opponent intentionally, recklessly or carelessly

Ian_Cook
06-04-15, 07:04
A player is guilty of misconduct if he: (b) when effecting or attempting to effect a tackle makes contact with the head or neck of an opponent intentionally, recklessly or carelessly

You're quoting Section 15.1 of the RL Laws. Those Laws do not apply to RU.

In RU, the OP's situation is covered by two laws.

10.4 (h) A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without
use of the arms, or without grasping a player.

Note it says "player", not "opponent"

and

16.2 JOINING A RUCK
(b) A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The
bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body
of the player joining the ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Note it says both "team-mate" and "opponent"

Ergo, if you charge into a ruck illegally and impact any player, you are liable to penalty... OP made the correct call and one I applaud.

leaguerefaus
06-04-15, 07:04
You're quoting Section 15.1 of the RL Laws. Those Laws do not apply to RU.

In RU, the OP's situation is covered by two laws.

10.4 (h) A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without
use of the arms, or without grasping a player.

Note it says "player", not "opponent"

and

16.2 JOINING A RUCK
(b) A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The
bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body
of the player joining the ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Note it says both "team-mate" and "opponent"

Ergo, if you charge into a ruck illegally and impact any player, you are liable to penalty... OP made the correct call and one I applaud.
I was answering 4eyesbetter question which was referring to what I would do in a RL match. Cheers.

4eyesbetter
06-04-15, 08:04
See, I would be inclined in the latter situations to be mildly pedantic with 15.a.1 instead of 15.a.2. 15.a.1 (trips, kicks or strikes another player) doesn't require an opponent, just another player. I don't see anything good in allowing players who come in with a big mowing arm to get away with it as long as they don't hit on the button.

Pegleg
06-04-15, 14:04
I was answering 4eyesbetter question which was referring to what I would do in a RL match. Cheers.

A clue for you:



http://www.rugbyrefs.com/images/rugbyrefs/misc/navbit-home.png (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/index.php)

Forum (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forum.php)
Rugby Union Forums (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forumdisplay.php?3-Rugby-Union-Forums)
"Was it right?" (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Was-it-right)



You claimed initial it was a "Bad Call". The context is that this is a UNION forum. The answers need to be related to Unions laws.

Pegleg
06-04-15, 14:04
To return to the point. The OP was correct.

Browner
06-04-15, 16:04
Was AR today in cumbria cup semifinal.
Tackle and ruck in midfield green flanker comes flying in at the side to take men out with in my opinion a reckless swinging arm. So I call in green reckless yellow card.
As the bodies unravel green standoff is lying on the floor in agony.
Turns out the swinging arm hit him!
Lots of complaints you can't get binned for hitting your own man.
Oh yes you can.

He did, so you clearly can.
Good call.

And the same philosophy should exist for other 'teammate v teammate dangers' such as :

Being dropped from an open field lift-catch onto head/shoulder/head
A swinging boot/kick.
Jumping at a teammate & hitting him with knees/feet raised ....or
( & he ducks ...) Upturning your own jumper such that he lands on his head/neck from height via connecting with the jumpers legs/feet

leaguerefaus
06-04-15, 17:04
A clue for you:



http://www.rugbyrefs.com/images/rugbyrefs/misc/navbit-home.png (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/index.php)

Forum (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forum.php)
Rugby Union Forums (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forumdisplay.php?3-Rugby-Union-Forums)
"Was it right?" (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Was-it-right)



You claimed initial it was a "Bad Call". The context is that this is a UNION forum. The answers need to be related to Unions laws.
I still think it's a bad call to bin the player. Never said it was wrong in law though. I'm sure no one gave a toss that 4eyesbetter and I were wondering what we'd do if something similar happened in our game, because it certainly raises a few questions. Cheers.

leaguerefaus
06-04-15, 17:04
See, I would be inclined in the latter situations to be mildly pedantic with 15.a.1 instead of 15.a.2. 15.a.1 (trips, kicks or strikes another player) doesn't require an opponent, just another player. I don't see anything good in allowing players who come in with a big mowing arm to get away with it as long as they don't hit on the button.
I could handle a penalty (I wouldn't blow it myself though) if he hit his team mate with an Adrian Moreley style swinging arm as described. Using a YC / RC like the OP though seems to be way over the top IMO (especially in Aus as we don't have the option to YC for foul play).

I do seem to recall watching some Super League a few years ago and seeing Phil Bentham penalise a player for a swinging arm that the attacker actually ducked under so it did not hit him at all. Maybe just slightly different styles in England compared to Australia (and union compared to league). I'd say Bentham would struggle to have a law book reference for the penalty but I'm not overly bothered by it.

Pegleg
06-04-15, 17:04
I still think it's a bad call to bin the player. Never said it was wrong in law though. I'm sure no one gave a toss that 4eyesbetter and I were wondering what we'd do if something similar happened in our game, because it certainly raises a few questions. Cheers.


Well more than one commented!

If you have a player who is going around swinging arms dangerously get him out of the way ASAP. If he's hit a team mate this time who knows who's next?

A player who is a loose cannon is a serious incident waiting to happen.

Browner
06-04-15, 17:04
I could handle a penalty (I wouldn't blow it myself though) if he hit his team mate with an Adrian Moreley style swinging arm as described. Using a YC / RC like the OP though seems to be way over the top IMO (especially in Aus as we don't have the option to YC for foul play).

Isnt this all about context LRA?, I mean, first degree murder might possibly maybe sometimes occasionally get an 'on report' by the RL practioners ......... :biggrin:

leaguerefaus
06-04-15, 17:04
Isnt this all about context LRA?, I mean, first degree murder might possibly maybe sometimes occasionally get an 'on report' by the RL practioners ......... :biggrin:
I think you'll find every park referee gets frustrated with the NRL being too piss weak to use the send off. My 5 RCs last year beats the NRLs last 3 years combined (2 RCs)!

ctrainor
07-04-15, 19:04
By the way, I'm reffing the same team this week, should be fun. I believe you should always penalise intent with whatever card you deem appropriate whether the offender connects or not

Pegleg
07-04-15, 19:04
By the way, I'm reffing the same team this week, should be fun. I believe you should always penalise intent with whatever card you deem appropriate whether the offender connects or not

Indeed. They don't get let off just because they are no good at offending.

Jarrod Burton
07-04-15, 22:04
Indeed. They don't get let off just because they are no good at offending.

Agree wholeheartedly. I heard this somewhere: Imagine trying to explain your decisions to an spouse or their lawyer - "sorry that your husband is in coma Ms Smith, but the four times previously that the player who stomped on your husband tried to stamp on an opponent he missed so I couldn't do anything.