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Pegleg
07-04-15, 19:04
http://www.worldrugby.org/news/65914

France gets the most refs with 3.

Pegleg
07-04-15, 19:04
Country Breakdown:

Romain Poite (FFR, 39), Jérôme Garcès (FFR, 22), Pascal Gauzere (FFR, 17),
Wayne Barnes (RFU, 57), JP Doyle (RFU, 12)
George Clancy (IRFU, 38), John Lacey (IRFU, 13)
Glen Jackson (NZR, 10), Chris Pollock (NZR, 18)
Craig Joubert (SARU, 55), Jaco Peyper (SARU, 20)
Nigel Owens (WRU, 60)

Nothing from Australia, Italy or Scotland. The last two can't be a surprise. Any thoughts on the lack of Aussies from the SH boys on here?

chrismtl
07-04-15, 20:04
Here's their national panel, copy/pasted from their website...who would you send to the WC? I wouldn't send any of them...

Steve Walsh would have been the only one, but he decided to retire.

Angus Gardner, Richard Goswell, Rohan Hoffman, Will Houston, James Leckie, Andrew Lees, Ed Martin, Damien Mitchelmore, Simon Moore, Anthony Moyes, Matt O'Brien, Julian Pritchard, Nathan Pearce, Steve Walsh, Ian Smith

Baylion
07-04-15, 20:04
Assistant referees: Federico Anselmi (UAR, five), Stuart Berry (SARU, 15), Mike Fraser (NZR, 10), Angus Gardner (ARU, two), Leighton Hodges (WRU, 19), Marius Mitrea (FIR, 13), Mathieu Raynal (FFR, nine).

Television match officials: George Ayoub (ARU, 33), Graham Hughes (RFU, 60) Ben Skeen (NZR, 11) and Shaun Veldsman (SARU, 50).

Ian_Cook
07-04-15, 20:04
Angus Gardner is on the AR list

Federico Anselmi (UAR)
Stuart Berry (SARU)
Mike Fraser (NZR)
Angus Gardner (ARU)
Leighton Hodges (WRU)
Marius Mitrea (FIR)
Mathieu Raynal (FFR)

George Ayoub is on the TMO list

George Ayoub (ARU)
Graham Hughes (RFU)
Ben Skeen (NZR)
Shaun Veldsman (SARU)

Pegleg
07-04-15, 20:04
Indeed but none on the "big boys list".

crossref
07-04-15, 21:04
very well done for JP Doyle and Glen Jackson who (unless I am mistaken) have each done only one top-tier game before (in the 6N just gone). They have done well to get to the RWC.

Crucial
07-04-15, 21:04
Country Breakdown:

Romain Poite (FFR, 39), Jérôme Garcès (FFR, 22), Pascal Gauzere (FFR, 17),
Wayne Barnes (RFU, 57), JP Doyle (RFU, 12)
George Clancy (IRFU, 38), John Lacey (IRFU, 13)
Glen Jackson (NZR, 10), Chris Pollock (NZR, 18)
Craig Joubert (SARU, 55), Jaco Peyper (SARU, 20)
Nigel Owens (WRU, 60)

Nothing from Australia, Italy or Scotland. The last two can't be a surprise. Any thoughts on the lack of Aussies from the SH boys on here?

As mentioned above. Australia have been in a hole with quality refs for some time now.

TBF so have NZ, although I think we have turned the corner and have a wave of good ones to come through in the next cycle.

I don't think GJ should be there. He is a fast track appointment much as WB was in 07. He will be good eventually but he is currently only pre-knockout level. He may not have been there if SW hadn't retired.

I don't know much about JP Doyle. Can someone enlighten me. Has he ever had a Tier 1 match?

crossref
07-04-15, 21:04
I don't know much about JP Doyle. Can someone enlighten me. Has he ever had a Tier 1 match?

France v Italy in the 6N just gone

SimonSmith
07-04-15, 23:04
Jackson? FFS. Taken leave of their senses

Drift
08-04-15, 00:04
Here's their national panel, copy/pasted from their website...who would you send to the WC? I wouldn't send any of them...

Steve Walsh would have been the only one, but he decided to retire.

Angus Gardner, Richard Goswell, Rohan Hoffman, Will Houston, James Leckie, Andrew Lees, Ed Martin, Damien Mitchelmore, Simon Moore, Anthony Moyes, Matt O'Brien, Julian Pritchard, Nathan Pearce, Steve Walsh, Ian Smith

That's a few years old now, Pearce hasn't been on the panel for at least 3 years.

Graham Cooper
Angus Gardner
Rohan Hoffmann
Michael Hogan
Will Houston
James Leckie
AndrewLees
Edward Martin
Damien Mitchelmore
Anthony Moyes
Matt O’Brien
Rasta Rasivhenge
Steve Walsh - since retired.

buff
08-04-15, 00:04
I thought Rasta Rasivhenge was South African.

Dickie E
08-04-15, 01:04
I thought Rasta Rasivhenge was South African.

has relocated from Ivory Coast to Gold Coast

Pegleg
08-04-15, 07:04
Jackson? FFS. Taken leave of their senses

Based on his 6 nations game I'd say no to GJ but basing a selection on one game is fraught with dangers. On the games I'd seen before I'd considered him one for the future. Perhaps its some minor pool games to gain experience?

Who are in the frame for the final?

I can't see France or Wales being there. NZ RSA Ireland and England will all be optimistic. So I'll say the front runners, based on likely hood of their country being involved and then the alphabet are:


Nigel Owens (WRU, 60), Romain Poite (FFR, 39), Craig Joubert (SARU, 55) or Wayne Barnes (RFU, 57).


Of the others and assuming their nations don't get there:


Chris Pollock (NZR, 18), Jaco Peyper (SARU, 20) - The pick of the rest

Jérôme Garcès (FFR, 22) May be 2019

Pascal Gauzere (FFR, 17) - Have not seen enough of him

Glen Jackson (NZR, 10), JP Doyle (RFU, 12) - There for the experience

George Clancy (IRFU, 38), John Lacey (IRFU, 13) Realy don't rate either of them

FlipFlop
08-04-15, 08:04
Must confess - I looked at the list and thought:

There must be better than Clancy, who only looks good when you compare him to Lacey.
And JP and GJ - basically no experience. And has Gauzere done many tests? Not been impressed with the 1 or 2 I have seen.
Not really seen Pollock ref either.

But scratched my head as to who to replace them all with.

And then I realised the horrible truth - there is a horrible lack of top quality refs out there.

4eyesbetter
08-04-15, 09:04
I don't know much about JP Doyle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_NiVZAjYUA

It's a mixture of "chill" and "relax"...

Daftmedic
08-04-15, 09:04
HMMMMMMMMM Jackson. He needs to be given every single warm up game to be ready for it. Not saying he is bad. But there is development that needs to happen before sept.
I have seen him in a few domestic games and he has a fantastic empathy for the players.

crossref
08-04-15, 09:04
But scratched my head as to who to replace them all with.


and that's the point -- it's not enough to name someone who shouldn't be on the list - people need to also name the alternative that they would put there instead.

I am sure that the less experienced refs on the list will be there to gain experience, reffing less prestigious games. When we get to the knockouts only the big boys will be left.

for the final : it still seems to me to be between Joubert and Owens, with Owens currently the favourite..

Browner
08-04-15, 10:04
for the final : it still seems to me to be between Joubert and Owens, with Owens currently the favourite..

Aren't Welsh refs always favourites ?? :pepper::eng:

FlipFlop
08-04-15, 10:04
So a question for the stato's here....

Are there any referees who have refereed Tier 1 nations (and lets define that as the 6N Plus SA, NZ, ARU, Arg) test matches in the last 12 months who have NOT been selected? (unless retired - Walshy etc)

Which would give us the list of who could have gone, but have missed out....

ddjamo
08-04-15, 10:04
That list makes me wonder what the actual truth is behind SWs retirement. Clancy, Doyle AND Jackson?

Dixie
08-04-15, 10:04
Let's not just focus on the refs. There are ARs on there with single-digit test-match experience - in the case of Angus Gardner, just two! Federico Anselmi looks like an elder statesman with five, and Mathiu Reynal is positively brimming with experience at nine tests. By contrast, the least experienced ref is Glen Jackson with 10.

The refs will also AR, but this looks like a kick in the teeth for experienced ARs out there.

Browner
08-04-15, 12:04
Let's not just focus on the refs. There are ARs on there with single-digit test-match experience - in the case of Angus Gardner, just two! Federico Anselmi looks like an elder statesman with five, and Mathiu Reynal is positively brimming with experience at nine tests. By contrast, the least experienced ref is Glen Jackson with 10.

The refs will also AR, but this looks like a kick in the teeth for experienced ARs out there.

Dixie's suggesting a change of policy, with succession planning as a likely objective, it's possible , nay likely???

I can only imagine that this is a deliberate & structured objective.

I'm personally not in the slight bit jealous of any of the appointees, they are all skilled practioners in their own 'interpretation' way. Good luck to them, they have reached the top of their sport through dedicated hard work & hours of application & regular review and appraisal.

For the newbies, they must be excited , I would be.

If anyone is going to have 5 good years at the top from say... 38 yrs old ( to 43) , then how do they gather the experience to do this without progressively earlier appointments ????

beckett50
08-04-15, 12:04
Can't believe Clancy made the list :sad:

Pegleg
08-04-15, 13:04
Aren't Welsh refs always favourites ?? :pepper::eng:

They have little competition from their team for the place.

Pegleg
08-04-15, 13:04
Dixie's suggesting a change of policy, with succession planning as a likely objective, it's possible , nay likely???

I can only imagine that this is a deliberate & structured objective.

I'm personally not in the slight bit jealous of any of the appointees, they are all skilled practioners in their own 'interpretation' way. Good luck to them, they have reached the top of their sport through dedicated hard work & hours of application & regular review and appraisal.

For the newbies, they must be excited , I would be.

If anyone is going to have 5 good years at the top from say... 38 yrs old ( to 43) , then how do they gather the experience to do this without progressively earlier appointments ????

Indeed So Jackson and O'Doyle and a couple of others are there for the experienc. Clancy ijust aint got it at all. Terrible referee!

As a previous poster says. It just shows how empty the pot is at the moment.

Browner
08-04-15, 13:04
They have little competition from their team for the place.

& there was me thinking that my allude might have been cleverly disguised....oh wait ! :biggrin:

crossref
08-04-15, 13:04
let's be realistic as well, even though it's the RWC some of the pool games are still pretty low-level international games...

Browner
08-04-15, 16:04
Clancy just aint got it at all. Terrible referee!
.

He's not my favourite, but that's far far removed from being "terrible", wash your mouth out with soap young man...tut tut tut :nono:

or maybe you're suggesting he isn't at the top on merited assessment, which would mean you're suggesting what exactly ????? Favouritism??!!!?

ddjamo
08-04-15, 19:04
let's be realistic as well, even though it's the RWC some of the pool games are still pretty low-level international games...

very true.

Crucial
08-04-15, 20:04
HMMMMMMMMM Jackson. He needs to be given every single warm up game to be ready for it. Not saying he is bad. But there is development that needs to happen before sept.
I have seen him in a few domestic games and he has a fantastic empathy for the players.

Try telling that to Tana Umaga. ;)

GJ fell into the trap of the poacher turned gamekeeper in a Counties Manukau v Auckland game where he refused to acknowledge the CM (coached by Umaga) captain then when old pal Piri Weepu came on for Auckland proceeded to have a running chat with him, and advising him on what he was seeing.

Umaga was furious and let GJ know after the game and eneded up with a two match sideline ban.


As for Pollock, it's a pity his progress has been halted at times through injury. He's a very good ref and has a fantastic demeanor. Much like Mark Lawrence he keeps a sense of humour and doesn't get caught up in the game. Defuses situations with a grin and is confident and firm in his decisions. Players think he's great.

Pegleg
08-04-15, 22:04
& there was me thinking that my allude might have been cleverly disguised....oh wait ! :biggrin:

You'd have been dissapointed if I did not give you the reply.

Pegleg
08-04-15, 22:04
He's not my favourite, but that's far far removed from being "terrible", wash your mouth out with soap young man...tut tut tut :nono:

or maybe you're suggesting he isn't at the top on merited assessment, which would mean you're suggesting what exactly ????? Favouritism??!!!?


I'm not suggesting anything. I am very clearly stating thar I think he is terrible. We suffer him weekly in the GP14 or whatever our joke league is called. If he is in the world's top 12. I'll start sending King Kong Birthday cards saying "Happy Birthday Nephew"

Browner
09-04-15, 06:04
I'm not suggesting anything. I am very clearly stating thar I think he is terrible. We suffer him weekly in the GP14 or whatever our joke league is called. If he is in the world's top 12. I'll start sending King Kong Birthday cards saying "Happy Birthday Nephew"

WR think he is ! , presumably based on diligent/regular critique by assessors that rank higher than either of us.!.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm not suggesting anything. I am very clearly stating thar I think he is terrible. We suffer him weekly in the GP14 or whatever our joke league is called. If he is in the world's top 12. I'll start sending King Kong Birthday cards saying "Happy Birthday Nephew"

WR think he is ! , presumably based on diligent/regular critique by assessors that rank higher than either of us.!.

Pegleg
09-04-15, 07:04
WR think he is ! , presumably based on diligent/regular critique by assessors that rank higher than either of us!


They, of course, are entitled to their opinion. Of course mine is based on observation alone without any other influences political or otherwise. I'm sure WR's are too.

WR make a lot of call that I and you disagree with. I am sure they too are based on diligent/regular analysis by officialsthat rank higher than either of us!

ddjamo
09-04-15, 11:04
just because someone is in a higher position doesn't guarantee that they will use common sense. I am beginning to believe it works in reverse. By the time procedure gets stuffed down everyone's throats it has lost all common sense and is full of agenda.

SimonSmith
09-04-15, 12:04
You would like to think it worked that way - but it doesn't.

Getting high technical marks on the assessment <> a good referee

crossref
09-04-15, 12:04
in a world cup, with so many games to compare, WR probably particularly interested in consistency across games. And who can blame them?

So will be particualrly looking for referees who are predictable, and can be trusted to stay on message.

OB..
09-04-15, 14:04
Getting high technical marks on the assessment <> a good refereeThe most significant marking on the forms I use relates of the referee's management to the game. There are separate sections on technical matters and it is possible to show good management skills despite an occasional outright technical blunder. If there is no correlatiojn at all between the two, the assessmenrt must be faulty.

At top levels the procedures are much more detailed, video based, and with much more discussion.

crossref
10-04-15, 14:04
Here's a exercise for the rugby ref geek... (if we happen to have any)...

Here's the first block of games - by the end of this block [almost] every team has played twice.. and no one has yet played three.

With 12 refs this might well be the first block of appointments announced, there are 19 games, and enough varierty of standards for every ref to have at least one game, and seven of them to appear twice.

Off you go then : make your first appointments. Who would you appoint?


18 England v Fiji Twickenham, London 21:00
19 Ireland v Canada Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 15:30
19 South Africa v Japan Brighton Community Centre, Brighton 17:45
19 France v Italy Twickenham, London 21:00
20 Samoa v USA Brighton Community Centre, Brighton 13:00
20 Wales v Uruguay Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 15:30
20 New Zealand v Argentina Wembley Stadium, London 17:45
23 Scotland v Japan Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester 15:30
23 Australia v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 17:45
23 France v Romania Olympic Stadium, London 21:00
24 New Zealand v Namibia Olympic Stadium, London 21:00
25 Argentina v Georgia Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester 17:45
26 Italy v Canada Elland Road, Leeds 15:30
26 South Africa v Samoa Villa Park, Birmingham 17:45
26 England v Wales Twickenham, London 21:00
27 Australia v Uruguay Villa Park, Birmingham 13:00
27 Scotland v USA Elland Road, Leeds 15:30
27 Ireland v Romania Wembley Stadium, London 17:45
29 Tonga v Namibia Sandy Park, Exeter 17:45

Pegleg
10-04-15, 16:04
I'll give it a go:

18 England v Fiji Twickenham, London 21:00 Romain Poite (FFR)
19 Ireland v Canada Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 15:30 Jaco Peyper (SARU)
19 South Africa v Japan Brighton Community Centre, Brighton 17:45 George Clancy (IRFU, 38)
19 France v Italy Twickenham, London 21:00 Wayne Barnes (RFU)
20 Samoa v USA Brighton Community Centre, Brighton 13:00 ), JP Doyle (RFU)
20 Wales v Uruguay Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 15:30 Glen Jackson (NZR)
20 New Zealand v Argentina Wembley Stadium, London 17:45 Nigel Owens (WRU)
23 Scotland v Japan Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester 15:30 Pascal Gauzere (FFR)
23 Australia v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 17:45 Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
23 France v Romania Olympic Stadium, London 21:00 Chris Pollock (NZR)
24 New Zealand v Namibia Olympic Stadium, London 21:00 Romain Poite (FFR)
25 Argentina v Georgia Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester 17:45 Jaco Peyper (SARU)
26 Italy v Canada Elland Road, Leeds 15:30 George Clancy (IRFU, 38)
26 South Africa v Samoa Villa Park, Birmingham 17:45 Nigel Owens (WRU)
26 England v Wales Twickenham, London 21:00 Craig Joubert (SARU)
27 Australia v Uruguay Villa Park, Birmingham 13:00 John Lacey (IRFU)
27 Scotland v USA Elland Road, Leeds 15:30 JP Doyle (RFU)
27 Ireland v Romania Wembley Stadium, London 17:45 Glen Jackson (NZR)
29 Tonga v Namibia Sandy Park, Exeter 17:45 Wayne Barnes (RFU)

crossref
10-04-15, 16:04
i love Barnesy doing Tonga v Namibia.

but why not? It's Tonga's first game, and could be fireworks.

I guess you are thinking that the top refs get the close games? Hence Jackson getting one-sided games like Ireland-Romania he won't affect the result.

Pegleg
10-04-15, 17:04
Basically that's the idea. Barnes get France Vs Italy too. Could be a bit tasty.

streetman246
13-04-15, 12:04
I'm not gonna do the whole list. But I think for the opening game it is between Roman Poitre and Nigel Owens. Personally, I would give it to Owens seeing as the first game is all about the traditions etc. what with the special whistle. I just think Owens deserves that privilege more

SimonSmith
13-04-15, 13:04
Welcome.

As a general guide to RR etiquette, it's 'St Nige', and any elite referee from Ireland must be referred to, sotto voce, as "f*cking" [NAME].

As in, 'f*cking George Clancy'.

OB..
13-04-15, 14:04
'f*cking George Clancy'.Normal tmesis would require "George f*****g Clancy" as in "Manchester f*****g United"

SimonSmith
13-04-15, 17:04
I defer to your knowledge in such matters

crossref
13-04-15, 17:04
this is the sort of stuff that if we found on a club website, with our own name rather than GC, we'd complain about.

ddjamo
13-04-15, 21:04
this is the sort of stuff that if we found on a club website, with our own name rather than GC, we'd complain about.

with one condition...we would have to ref as poorly as he does for his grade.

The umpire
13-04-15, 23:04
seeing as the first game is all about the traditions etc. what with the special whistle.

Well, you learn something every day, I never knew that.

And for my fellow ignoramuses


The first game of every world cup to date has been started by the same whistle. The whistle is nearly 100 years old and bears an inscription saying it was used by Gil Evans in the Test match between New Zealand and England in December 1905, a match the All Blacks won 15-0.

This piece of rugby history is also believed to have been used by Albert E. Freethy in the final of the 1924 Olympics in Paris when the United States beat hosts France 17-13 at the Colombes Stadium - the last time the sport of rugby union featured in the Games.

A year later Freethy blew the whistle to dismiss Cyril Brownlie in the Test between New Zealand and England at Twickenham in January 1925, making him the first player to be sent off in an international match.

The whistle has been housed in the New Zealand Rugby Museum in Palmerston North since 16 April 1969 when they held their inaugural function, having been given by Stan Dean, who for many years was the chairman of the NZRFU and manager of the 1924/25 All Blacks.

Drift
13-04-15, 23:04
Here's a exercise for the rugby ref geek... (if we happen to have any)...

Here's the first block of games - by the end of this block [almost] every team has played twice.. and no one has yet played three.

With 12 refs this might well be the first block of appointments announced, there are 19 games, and enough varierty of standards for every ref to have at least one game, and seven of them to appear twice.

Off you go then : make your first appointments. Who would you appoint?


18 England v Fiji Twickenham, London 21:00
19 Ireland v Canada Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 15:30
19 South Africa v Japan Brighton Community Centre, Brighton 17:45
19 France v Italy Twickenham, London 21:00
20 Samoa v USA Brighton Community Centre, Brighton 13:00
20 Wales v Uruguay Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 15:30
20 New Zealand v Argentina Wembley Stadium, London 17:45
23 Scotland v Japan Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester 15:30
23 Australia v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 17:45
23 France v Romania Olympic Stadium, London 21:00
24 New Zealand v Namibia Olympic Stadium, London 21:00
25 Argentina v Georgia Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester 17:45
26 Italy v Canada Elland Road, Leeds 15:30
26 South Africa v Samoa Villa Park, Birmingham 17:45
26 England v Wales Twickenham, London 21:00
27 Australia v Uruguay Villa Park, Birmingham 13:00
27 Scotland v USA Elland Road, Leeds 15:30
27 Ireland v Romania Wembley Stadium, London 17:45
29 Tonga v Namibia Sandy Park, Exeter 17:45

What they did last time was appoint all of the pool games and then release the appointments on a weekly basis. I guess they are going to do that again this time.

Dickie E
20-04-15, 00:04
Federico Anselmi (UAR)


I was never a big fan of FA in his 7s days and noted he was running touch on Saturday for the Brumbies v Rebels (was that his first game at S15 level???)

Flagged a late tackle which was fine and I think the ref saw it too. Ref (Angus Gardner) clearly asked him only one question: "did you get the number?".

FA then launches into a full description of the incident and never gets around to the number so player never admonished.

This guy will be hard work.

crossref
22-04-15, 17:04
Nigel Owens has been given the European final -- so I guess that demonstrates he holds his position as the Northern Hemisphere's #1 ranked (non-French) ref. Odds just shortened slightly on him getting the final..

crossref
22-04-15, 17:04
[I] The first game of every world cup to date has been started by the same whistle. The whistle is nearly 100 years old and bears an inscription saying it was used by Gil Evans in the Test match between New Zealand and England in December 1905, a match the All Blacks won 15-0.


cool. does the ref in the middle blow it (and then presumably carry it / use it all game) or is it blown by some kind of sixth official.

Drift
22-04-15, 23:04
Used all game I believe.

streetman246
27-04-15, 20:04
drift and crossref, it is used literally just for the opening kickoff. the ref will blow it and then put it in to his pocket before passing it off to an AR for safekeeping. this is described in this video with Paddy O'Brien: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io2yOwhSicw

Crucial
16-05-15, 11:05
Well, after tonights performance in the Hurricanes/ Chiefs match I hope someone sends GJ on a refresher course on how to ref before he runs out at the RWC. Terrible display and VM as TMO was almost worse.

Daftmedic
17-05-15, 09:05
I've got the New Zealand v Argentina game.

The Fat
21-05-15, 09:05
Well, after tonights performance in the Hurricanes/ Chiefs match I hope someone sends GJ on a refresher course on how to ref before he runs out at the RWC. Terrible display and VM as TMO was almost worse.

Well someone was taking notice with Jackson & Munro, Hoffman & Ayoub, and Peyper all dropped for this week's Super Rugby matches.
Jackson, Peyper and Ayoub all bound for RWC.

Interesting conversation with a fellow referee who was at the Waratahs v Sharks game and during the game thought RH made some strange calls until he spoke to him and was told what the ref was seeing out on the field. Didn't get a chance to ask him what RH had to say about the time issue just before half time.

I must say that I think there have been some strange TMO decisions this year from guys who are usually pretty good and if we are seeing the same vision as the TMO, there were a couple that George made in the Waratahs v Sharks game that I'd love to hear what his thought processes were.

Didn't see all of Jaco Peyper's game last week so can't comment on his performance.

Ian_Cook
21-05-15, 10:05
Well someone was taking notice with Jackson & Munro, Hoffman & Ayoub, and Peyper all dropped for this week's Super Rugby matches.
Jackson, Peyper and Ayoub all bound for RWC.

Interesting conversation with a fellow referee who was at the Waratahs v Sharks game and during the game thought RH made some strange calls until he spoke to him and was told what the ref was seeing out on the field. Didn't get a chance to ask him what RH had to say about the time issue just before half time.

I must say that I think there have been some strange TMO decisions this year from guys who are usually pretty good and if we are seeing the same vision as the TMO, there were a couple that George made in the Waratahs v Sharks game that I'd love to hear what his thought processes were.

Didn't see all of Jaco Peyper's game last week so can't comment on his performance.

I watched JP's match (Lions v Brumbies) and I didn't see anything obvious that he did wrong.
I remember him calling over the Brumbies captain (Mowen?) after there had been a couple too many breakdown PKs and saying something to the effect that "If you are going contest every breakdown then its going to come at a price". Channelling a bit of Sun Tzu there I think; he was effectively warning him and his team to choose their battles more wisely. IMO that is excellent game management.

Drift
21-05-15, 10:05
That's a great line. JP has come out with some really good management this year.

Pegleg
01-07-15, 22:07
Nigel Owens announces his opening games:
Ref - Tong v Georg
Ref - SA v Sco
Ref - Fra v Ire .

Then AR1 Aus v Fiji, Arg v Geo & SA v USA

Drift
02-07-15, 00:07
Appointments

Friday 18 September 2015

England vs Fiji at Twickenham
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees: John Lacey (Ireland), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Saturday 19 September 2015

Tonga vs Georgia at Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester
Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Chris Pollock (New Zealand), Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

Ireland vs Canada at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (France), Mike Fraser (New Zealand)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

South Africa vs Japan at Brighton Community Stadium
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant referees: JP Doyle (England), Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

France vs Italy at Twickenham
Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant referees: John Lacey (Ireland), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Sunday 20 September 2015

Samoa vs USA at Brighton Community Stadium
Referee: George Clancy (Ireland)
Assistant referees: Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

Wales vs Uruguay at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (France), Mathieu Raynal (France)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

New Zealand vs Argentina at Wembley Stadium
Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Assistant referees: JP Doyle (England), Angus Gardner (Australia)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

Wednesday 23 September 2015

Scotland vs Japan at Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant referees: George Clancy (Ireland), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Australia vs Fiji at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Chris Pollock (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Nigel Owens (Wales), Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

France vs Romania at The Stadium, Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, London
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Craig Joubert (South Africa), Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

Thursday 24 September 2015

New Zealand vs Namibia at The Stadium, Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, London
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant referees: Craig Joubert (South Africa), Mathieu Raynal (France)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

Friday 25 September 2015

Argentina vs Georgia at Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester
Referee: JP Doyle (England)
Assistant referees: Nigel Owens (Wales), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Saturday 26 September 2015

Italy vs Canada at Elland Road, Leeds
Referee: George Clancy (Ireland)
Assistant referees: Glen Jackson (New Zealand), Mike Fraser (New Zealand)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

South Africa vs Samoa at Villa Park, Birmingham
Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Assistant referees: JP Doyle (England), Angus Gardner (Australia)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

England vs Wales at Twickenham
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Mathieu Raynal (France)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Sunday 27 September 2015

Australia vs Uruguay at Villa Park, Birmingham
Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant referees: Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

Scotland vs USA at Elland Road, Leeds
Referee: Chris Pollock (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: John Lacey (Ireland), Mike Fraser (New Zealand)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Ireland vs Romania at Wembley Stadium, London
Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Tuesday 29 September 2015

Tonga vs Namibia at Sandy Park, Exeter
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Chris Pollock (New Zealand), Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Thursday 1 October 2015

Wales vs Fiji at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant referees: Jérôme Garcès (France), Mathieu Raynal (France)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

France vs Canada at Stadium MK, Milton Keynes
Referee: JP Doyle (England)
Assistant referees: Wayne Barnes (England), Angus Gardner (Australia)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

Friday 2 October 2015

New Zealand vs Georgia at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant referees: Angus Gardner (Australia), Mathieu Raynal (France)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Saturday 3 October 2015

Samoa vs Japan at Stadium MK, Milton Keynes
Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Wayne Barnes (England), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

South Africa vs Scotland at St James' Park, Newcastle
Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Chris Pollock (New Zealand), Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

England vs Australia at Twickenham
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant referees: George Clancy (Ireland), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Sunday 4 October 2015

Argentina vs Tonga at Leicester City Stadium, Leicester
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Glen Jackson (New Zealand), Mike Fraser (New Zealand)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Ireland vs Italy at The Stadium, Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, London
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (France), Angus Gardner (Australia)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

Tuesday 6 October 2015

Canada vs Romania at Leicester City Stadium, Leicester
Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Assistant referees: Glen Jackson (New Zealand), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Fiji vs Uruguay Stadium MK, Milton Keynes
Referee: JP Doyle (England)
Assistant referees: Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

Wednesday 7 October 2015

South Africa vs USA at The Stadium, Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, London
Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant referees: Nigel Owens (Wales), Mike Fraser (New Zealand)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

Namibia vs Georgia at Sandy Park, Exeter
Referee: George Clancy (Ireland)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Friday 9 October 2015

New Zealand vs Tonga, at St James' Park, Newcastle
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant referees: JP Doyle (England), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

Saturday 10 October 2015

Samoa vs Scotland at St James' Park, Newcastle
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees: JP Doyle (England), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Australia vs Wales at Twickenham
Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Jérôme Garcès (France), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

England vs Uruguay at Manchester City Stadium, Manchester
Referee: Chris Pollock (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Angus Gardner (Australia), Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

Sunday 11 October 2015

Argentina vs Namibia at Leicester City Stadium, Leicester
Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant referees: Jérôme Garcès (France), Mike Fraser (New Zealand)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

Italy vs Romania at Sandy Park, Exeter
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant referees: George Clancy (Ireland), Mathieu Raynal (France)
Television match official: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

France vs Ireland at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Wayne Barnes (England), Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Graham Hughes (England)

USA vs Japan at Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: John Lacey (Ireland), Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

crossref
02-07-15, 09:07
Number of games
Barnes 3
Clancy 3
Doyle 3
Garces 3
Gauzere 4
Jackson 3
Joubert 4
Lacey 3
Owens 3
Peyper 4
Poite 4
Pollock 3

Should we read anything into who gets three, and who gets four?

FlipFlop
02-07-15, 10:07
Scotland vs Japan at Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant referees: George Clancy (Ireland), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

What have Scotland and Japan done to get this set of 3? No idea about Mitrea, but Clancy and Lacey together is a recipe for disaster.

crossref
02-07-15, 10:07
this one

Tonga vs Namibia at Sandy Park, Exeter
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)

might pose a challenge for GJ - both teams can be pretty tasty.
this is the game that pegleg appointed Wayne Barnes to in his list above.

Browner
02-07-15, 11:07
NO has Leighton Hodges as a AR for all x3 of his matches, slightly unusual, a car share policy probably ?!:biggrin:

Tonga v Georgia, is 7/2 fav to produce a new catchphrase/tee shirt slogan for the Welsh conductor.

Pegleg
02-07-15, 12:07
this one


might pose a challenge for GJ - both teams can be pretty tasty.
this is the game that pegleg appointed Wayne Barnes to in his list above.

Indeed a big test for GJ. If
he comes through it good on him!

Pegleg
02-07-15, 12:07
What have Scotland and Japan done to get this set of 3? No idea about Mitrea, but Clancy and Lacey together is a recipe for disaster.

At least Clancy and Mitrea are only on the sidelines.

FlipFlop
02-07-15, 12:07
At least Clancy and Mitrea are only on the sidelines.

But often Lacey appears he is on the sidelines as well, even when he is the ref. Hope to be shown otherwise in this tournament, but this match looks like they have appointed 3 ARs, with probably not much "A" or "R".

crossref
02-07-15, 12:07
French refs for both of England's big games (v Wales and v Australia)

Browner
02-07-15, 14:07
But often Lacey appears he is on the sidelines as well, even when he is the ref. Hope to be shown otherwise in this tournament, but this match looks like they have appointed 3 ARs, with probably not much "A" or "R".

Flip Flop, i'm actually quite surprised you wander down this line of comment re: these referees.

By doing so you seem to be disrespecting the vast assessing system that sits behind their international status or such appointments
& in a way thats no the same mindset as the spectator on the local touchline blurting out that the local referee is rubbish.

:Zip:

ddjamo
02-07-15, 14:07
What have Scotland and Japan done to get this set of 3? No idea about Mitrea, but Clancy and Lacey together is a recipe for disaster.

every hear the one about the two Irishmen and an Italian?

FlipFlop
02-07-15, 15:07
Flip Flop, i'm actually quite surprised you wander down this line of comment re: these referees.

By doing so you seem to be disrespecting the vast assessing system that sits behind their international status or such appointments
& in a way thats no the same mindset as the spectator on the local touchline blurting out that the local referee is rubbish.

:Zip:

Giving my view of Lacey and Clancy, who are (in my view) not up to the standard of top tier internationals, and to appoint them together, with the 3rd assistant also being not an experienced top flight ref, seems to me to be asking for trouble. I hope to be proved wrong. I hope GC and JL manage to avoid the "rabbit in the headlights" look they often have, and the appearance of being out of their depth they so often have.

I am not accusing them of bias, or cheating, or anything similar. I just don't like their style, their management or the game, and their apparent indecision. They are completely fair, and favour no-side. I suspect there are quite a few sides who will glad if GC or JL don't referee them.

Pegleg
02-07-15, 16:07
Agreed , FilpFlop, Nothing wrong with beign critical of referees. If we think we are above critique then so are the players etc. At least A ref is critical from an informed position unlike a supporter or reporter etc. It is safe to say that there are major groans when GC is seen on the official list for a game. This from supporters, players and club/ team officials. When there is fairly solid disrespect shown toward an official then questions need to be asked.

Rushforth
02-07-15, 16:07
Agreed , FilpFlop, Nothing wrong with beign critical of referees.

It is very easy to be critical. For example, no space before a comma, you are replying to FlipFlop and you can't spell the gerund of "to be" either.

Both players and officials will get criticised during their careers, sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. Mostly, both groups will know they had a shit game. Bad days happen to everybody.

The only problem I have is that neither of you are not actually criticizing these officials. Both of you are saying "he's crap, I wouldn't want him to referee my side in an important match". The most detail I got was "rabbit in headlights", which is no detail at all.

But what I'm trying to get at is that there will inevitably be a small group of (perceived, perhaps) "worst elite <whatevers>". This will be even more exaggerated in the case of something like a World Cup, where there is a political "push" to get officials from all countries involved.

It is one thing to say, in the referees only sub-forum "X had another shocker, because A, B and on top of that C". I don't think it is of any value to discuss the merits of an official who is (presumably) better than you or I are at officiating in the public parts of these forums, where people who google "rugby refs clancy crap" will get their suspicions "confirmed".

But then again, what do I know?

Phil E
02-07-15, 16:07
But then again, what do I know?

Nicely summed up :biggrin:

Pegleg
02-07-15, 18:07
It is very easy to be critical. For example, no space before a comma, you are replying to FlipFlop and you can't spell the gerund of "to be" either.

Both players and officials will get criticised during their careers, sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. Mostly, both groups will know they had a shit game. Bad days happen to everybody.

The only problem I have is that neither of you are not actually criticizing these officials. Both of you are saying "he's crap, I wouldn't want him to referee my side in an important match". The most detail I got was "rabbit in headlights", which is no detail at all.

But what I'm trying to get at is that there will inevitably be a small group of (perceived, perhaps) "worst elite <whatevers>". This will be even more exaggerated in the case of something like a World Cup, where there is a political "push" to get officials from all countries involved.

It is one thing to say, in the referees only sub-forum "X had another shocker, because A, B and on top of that C". I don't think it is of any value to discuss the merits of an official who is (presumably) better than you or I are at officiating in the public parts of these forums, where people who google "rugby refs clancy crap" will get their suspicions "confirmed".

But then again, what do I know?


If all can pick up on is typos good luck to you.

Pegleg
02-07-15, 18:07
The only problem I have is that neither of you are not actually criticizing these officials. Both of you are saying "he's crap, I wouldn't want him to referee my side in an important match". The most detail I got was "rabbit in headlights", which is no detail at all.

Would you like to back that claim up?

Rushforth
02-07-15, 18:07
Would you like to back that claim up?

Sure. I got a 'B' for my English Language 'O'-level. I read this thread. Is that enough?

Browner
02-07-15, 18:07
Giving my view of Lacey and Clancy, who are (in my view) not up to the standard of top tier internationals, and to appoint them together, with the 3rd assistant also being not an experienced top flight ref, seems to me to be asking for trouble. I hope to be proved wrong. I hope GC and JL manage to avoid the "rabbit in the headlights" look they often have, and the appearance of being out of their depth they so often have.

I am not accusing them of bias, or cheating, or anything similar. I just don't like their style, their management or the game, and their apparent indecision. They are completely fair, and favour no-side. I suspect there are quite a few sides who will glad if GC or JL don't referee them.

Style is personal, & can be liked or not, i doubt everyone likes yours :love: or mine, but if they were out of their depth :Zip: then surely the system would recognise that & deal with it accordingly (unless your suggesting 'politics' prevents - which is always a possibility as it is in most things).

It is possible to be an excellent exponent of refereeing, and still be the 19th best, not everyone can be numero uno bestest whistleking head honcho.

I marvel at how multi-skilled these top guys are, even if i don't agree with all their interpretations each time.

Browner
02-07-15, 19:07
Agreed , FilpFlop, Nothing wrong with beign critical of referees. If we think we are above critique then so are the players etc.

At least A ref is critical from an informed position unlike a supporter or reporter etc. It is safe to say that there are major groans when GC is seen on the official list for a game. This from supporters, players and club/ team officials.

When there is fairly solid disrespect shown toward an official then questions need to be asked.

Pegleg seems [once again ?] to be 'speaking on behalf of' a very large set of groups, id suggest it was about time he evidenced his mandate for doing so.

:confused:

Browner
02-07-15, 19:07
But what I'm trying to get at is that there will inevitably be a small group of (perceived, perhaps) "worst elite <whatevers>". This will be even more exaggerated in the case of something like a World Cup, where there is a political "push" to get officials from all countries involved.

Indeed we should all support referees advancing out of the mist of a minor/regressing/third world nations, England does its bit by making it 100% to escape across the nearest bridge :biggrin:

Pegleg
02-07-15, 19:07
Sure. I got a 'B' for my English Language 'O'-level. I read this thread. Is that enough?

Clearly not for comprehension. Try reading the quote again. Give a quote (not a made up quotation) where I've said ion the thread that he is crap. Go on humour me.

Rushforth
02-07-15, 20:07
It is safe to say that there are major groans when GC is seen on the official list for a game.

Reading comprehension.

Pegleg
02-07-15, 20:07
So you're making things up. Fair enough. No wonder you chose to attack typos, your rugby based arguments are so shallow.

Clancy is not a good referee if the standard you judge him against is his fellow profesionals. He is far from crap. Quality is a relative things, He is too poor for the level he is refereeing at. That judgment is based up on watching him in the Pro 12 far too many times. At a lower level he may, or may not, be fine.

Pegleg
02-07-15, 20:07
Pegleg seems [once again ?] to be 'speaking on behalf of' a very large set of groups, id suggest it was about time he evidenced his mandate for doing so.

:confused:

I read and I talk to supporters. I need no madate to express my and their opinion. Of course were I to quote one and attribute the comment to them I would, possibly, need one. But I'm sure you know that already. Here I am commenting on what I OBSERVE that is not the same as speaking on their behalf. Again I am sure you know that too.

Browner
02-07-15, 21:07
I read and I talk to supporters. I need no mandate to express my and their opinions. Of course were I to quote one and attribute the comment to them[him/her]I would, possibly, need one. But I'm sure you know that already. Here I am commenting on what I OBSERVE that is not the same as speaking on their behalf. Again I am sure you know that too.

please see exhibit A], specifically point 6.

Exhibit a] http://www.urban75.com/Mag/argument.html

The Prosecution rests my Lord.:shrug::D

Pegleg
03-07-15, 00:07
Pity I used the term I and not we. Hard luck Browner try harder next time.

You and Rushforth need to take look at those: Pedentry of ver gramatical (TYPOS) and the "friendly" national banter. Oh dear the case for the defence rests!

Drift
03-07-15, 00:07
I had to double check what site I was on reading the last page, could have sworn I had opened up PR.

All well and good being critical of referees, however you need to back up your thoughts with incidents and examples. Not just "I don't like this person because my team lost and he was the referee".

menace
03-07-15, 01:07
I suspect there are quite a few sides who will glad if GC or JL don't referee them.

You see, if you'd said, 'sides and their fans' I would have said "aye".....but since you said 'sides' only and I don't play for the wallabies, then I'll stay quiet. ( but for the record...:swet:)

We' ll just have to endure the inconsistencies of a French ref instead....I'll let you choose which one I'm referring.

Pegleg
03-07-15, 08:07
I had to double check what site I was on reading the last page, could have sworn I had opened up PR.

All well and good being critical of referees, however you need to back up your thoughts with incidents and examples. Not just "I don't like this person because my team lost and he was the referee".

Again: Hs anyone stated that argument here? Not that I can see. Perhaps it is people with a degree of refereeing knowledge stating what they see? Just a thought.

crossref
03-07-15, 10:07
my observation of Clancy is that he doesn't quite project the relaxed, assured, calm, "I know what I am doing", persona that a top ref like Joubert or Owens or Barnes does.

Who thinks he will be given a RWC knockout game? Presumably not, meaning he's ranked outside the top 4.

Browner
03-07-15, 11:07
my observation of Clancy is that he doesn't quite project the relaxed, assured, calm, "I know what I am doing", persona that a top ref like Joubert or Owens or Barnes does.

Who thinks he will be given a RWC knockout game? Presumably not, meaning he's ranked outside the top 4.

Anyone who is ranked in the top 30 of their profession must surely be considered successful / competent / skilled ???? theres no disgrace in not being no1. World rugby can't be refereed by the same x4 people !

Pegleg
03-07-15, 18:07
Anyone who is ranked in the top 30 of their profession must surely be considered successful / competent / skilled ???? theres no disgrace in not being no1. World rugby can't be refereed by the same x4 people !


No one is making such a silly claim as to suggest that Clancey is poor because he is not in the top 4.
As someone who has watched a lot of Pro 12 rugby / Magners etc over far too long a period. I do not think Clancy is worthy of a place at the RWC. IF he is then the elite of out trade is in a very parlous state. Italian refs are well short of the mark. Scotland has NO ref in that group, they have been found out. Wales has only Nigel at the moment although there are some good prospects in the wings. I hope they make the step up. Irelland is, on the surface doing well. However, some of the reffing in the pro 12 from the likles of Clancey, Fitzgibbon and their coleagues is, Well let's just say "interesting".

Rushforth
03-07-15, 18:07
I do not think Clancy is worthy of a place at the RWC.

I don't think that I would be worthy of refereeing a RWC match myself. I don't know if you are a referee, Pegleg, or a "Rugby Club Member", but you are clearly a better armchair referee than I will ever be.

I sincerely hope that you are not a referee yourself, for your own sake.

Moderators, please move this thread to a referee-only section of the site.

Pegleg
03-07-15, 19:07
Oh Dear. Poor Rushforth. As you are keen to know I've been refereeing for many years. I know a good ref when I see one and I know a, relitively poor, one too. I also don't believe that referees should be above critisism Or are we too precious? Players will be singled out on these very froums during the coming season. As long as people refrain from accusations of cheating / being bent etc (unless with some very supportive evidence) I will defend anyones right to say that a referee is not of the required standard. That is not critical of the man. Rather it is critical of the system. When you look at the referee squad for the showpiece event in WR's calendar it is worrying. Scotland can't must ONE referee fit to grace the elite. Others have commented on the worrying position in the SH. That is something for concern.

Why the "for your own sake" comment? I can take a discussion with coaches players or supporters about my performances. As long as they are conducted in due respect.

Personally as this is "RugbyREFS.com" I fail to understand why we can not talk openly. But there you go. No wonder we are losing the repect we once had when people like you get so precious.

OB..
03-07-15, 19:07
Moderators, please move this thread to a referee-only section of the site.
Why? People will judge referees whatever we say on here. If they give no rationale, they can be challenged, and experienced referees may have some useful points to make for the benefit of all.

It is only ill-informed criticism that we need to be wary of, and the best response is to provide information.

Browner
05-07-15, 14:07
No one is making such a silly claim as to suggest that Clancey is poor because he is not in the top 4.
As someone who has watched a lot of Pro 12 rugby / Magners etc over far too long a period. I do not think Clancy is worthy of a place at the RWC. IF he is then the elite of out trade is in a very parlous state. Italian refs are well short of the mark. Scotland has NO ref in that group, they have been found out. Wales has only Nigel at the moment although there are some good prospects in the wings. I hope they make the step up. Irelland is, on the surface doing well. However, some of the reffing in the pro 12 from the likles of Clancey, Fitzgibbon and their coleagues is, Well let's just say "interesting".

I'm sensing a slight anti Irishref gaze?!!

Browner
05-07-15, 14:07
"If you are going contest every breakdown then its going to come at a price".

Channelling a bit of Sun Tzu there I think; he was effectively warning him and his team to choose their battles more wisely. IMO that is excellent game management.

That fait acompli isnt absolute.

"At a Price"' isnt dependant on frequency of contest, it should depend on frequency of illegality of contest, so " "contesting every breakdown carries accumulation offence risks if you're not always lawful"


You can be too subtle for some captains !

Pegleg
06-07-15, 07:07
I'm sensing a slight anti Irishref gaze?!!

No not anti anyone. Saying it as I see it. The reffing in the pro 12 is poor. Also you quote (chosing to embolden it as well) the fact that I've stated that Wales only has Nigel at the top. Are you going to accuse me "a slight anti Welshref gaze" too? You can have it both ways.

MrQeu
06-07-15, 10:07
Let me take part in this discussion merely as a fan (loopsided, as any fan) but with ref background in other sports.


Each ref has his/her style. Some are better in managing/letting the game flow, some are better in spotting the penalties at the breakdown and others know the arts of scrummaging... or not. Some are great in one of those areas, and very few are nearly perfect. But in the end, referees should adequate their reffing to the level of the teams, but they should be up the standards of the teams and be, at least, of their very same quality if not better.

Refs are ranked. Noone will accept that a referee which just refs second division (ProD2, Championship, etc) is ready to ref a RWC Final. Well, he may be, but there are better suits. After that, it's just a matter of granaularity. Maybe the siwth top ref of the world is not up the standard to ref a match with the eight and ninth best side in the world. Well, if so, then WR and the national bodies have a problem in their system of promotion and coaching as they have not been able to "produce" or "recrute" better refs for the game. And if you know the sport and try to be objective, you know when a ref is not confortable with the game. And when someone is not confortable, errors may happen.

For example, during the Top14 playoffs, the selection of refs was, if I may say it this way, a little bit shocking. France has 3 Top international referees, Poîte and Garcés are used to ref 6N since some years ago. Gauzère has arrived at the top not that long ago. Well, RP and JG got the two quarterfinals games. The parisian clash and a quite difficult Tolouse v Oyonnax. Gauzère got the final. A gift to him and a match to prove his qualities. Everybody understood it and there was no discussion about it. On the other hand, the two semifinals were reffed by top4 and top5 refs in France, Reynal and Ruiz. We are talking here about the ex-aequo second most important club matches of the year in France. And the refs were not the best. Not even in the sidelines there was a top ref (something I might understand, so there is less pressure and they don'f feel undermined by their presence). Well, there were problems. Not big problems, but there were some. I recall a ref coming back to a scrum advantage after the non offending team had box kicked the ball. Some inconsistent calls and changes in management style (things that were permitted for a moment but not after, etc).

Their performance was not a key factor into deciding the winner but sometimes they didn't seem to be confortable. And there was no language barrier in thos games.

crossref
06-07-15, 10:07
but you also have to consider growth.
If semi-finals were always given to the #1 and #2 best refs in the country, then how would any ref become the #2, with no experience of reffing a semi-final?

And every ref has to have a first game, a first semi-final, a first final.

It isn't straighforward.

FlipFlop
06-07-15, 11:07
but you also have to consider growth.
If semi-finals were always given to the #1 and #2 best refs in the country, then how would any ref become the #2, with no experience of reffing a semi-final?

And every ref has to have a first game, a first semi-final, a first final.

It isn't straighforward.

Easy - you give the Final to the best, and the Semi-finals to the 1st and 2nd (or possibly 2 and 3rd).
Rankings to be based on the performance in the season. (So it could be your first semi-final or final)
To get the best games, you need to show you are the best (better than the competition at least)

crossref
06-07-15, 12:07
Easy - you give the Final to the best, and the Semi-finals to the 1st and 2nd (or possibly 2 and 3rd).
Rankings to be based on the performance in the season. (So it could be your first semi-final or final)
To get the best games, you need to show you are the best (better than the competition at least)

but if the incumbent #1 and #2 always get the top two games then it's very hard for the #3 and #4, denied this platform, to show what they can do
And so on down the line -- right to the bottom level. For a referee to grow, you have to sometimes set a challenge, appoint him/her (carefully) to a game above their current rank, and see how they do.

No one is going to develop if every week they are always appointed to game inside their comfort zone

FlipFlop
06-07-15, 14:07
If the incumbent 1&2 show they are the 1&2 through the season they deserve the top 2 games. The 3 & 4 should be told what they need to do to get into the top 2. Then next season they need to improve, and put pressure on the Top 2.

It is possible for the Top 2, to really be a top 3, or top 4, if there really is nothing between the refs. So it might rotate. but generally in finals you want the best people on the field. It is not a time to give someone something to experiment. It is reward for the effort and achievement in the season. You appoint someone above their rank during the season. Not at the end of the season in a final.

crossref
06-07-15, 17:07
your system sounds rather like dead man's shoes .. . no one gets a look in until #1 fall from his perch, then suddenly thay are in - like being an understudy.

but in real life it's more complex than you make out.
1 - you don't really have an out and out #1 . Is Owens better than Joubert? Or do they actually have their own strengths and weaknesses (Ans the latter - in reality there are probabaly three or four refs I'd trust to ref a RWC final, and no objective ranking that makes them definitively #1 #2 #3 and #4)

2 - what if the #1 and #2 are precluded from reffing the final because their teams are playing? Step down #3 and perhaps now we wish we had more of a rotation policy, as #3 didn't even get a semi-final in your rigorous system.

Pegleg
06-07-15, 18:07
your system sounds rather like dead man's shoes .. . no one gets a look in until #1 fall from his perch, then suddenly thay are in - like being an understudy.

but in real life it's more complex than you make out.
1 - you don't really have an out and out #1 . Is Owens better than Joubert? Or do they actually have their own strengths and weaknesses (Ans the latter - in reality there are probabaly three or four refs I'd trust to ref a RWC final, and no objective ranking that makes them definitively #1 #2 #3 and #4)

2 - what if the #1 and #2 are precluded from reffing the final because their teams are playing? Step down #3 and perhaps now we wish we had more of a rotation policy, as #3 didn't even get a semi-final in your rigorous system.

Agreed. There are 3 or 4 "final" refs so whoever gets there a tidy referee should be available. The problem we have is below the "Top" elite. Our Australian colleagues have commented on the lack of quality there. Wales has only had Nigel for some time. Scotland have dropped off the radar. Ireland has no stand out referee. Italy? Well in fairness they are still playing catch up throughout their game. I assume and trust that WR are indeed looking at the problem. As I post (in to "anti Ireland rant") Wales has a couple of young guys that it's hopeful about. but it is a long old time since there was a serious challenge to Nigel as our number 1.

FlipFlop
07-07-15, 11:07
your system sounds rather like dead man's shoes .. . no one gets a look in until #1 fall from his perch, then suddenly thay are in - like being an understudy.

but in real life it's more complex than you make out.
1 - you don't really have an out and out #1 . Is Owens better than Joubert? Or do they actually have their own strengths and weaknesses (Ans the latter - in reality there are probabaly three or four refs I'd trust to ref a RWC final, and no objective ranking that makes them definitively #1 #2 #3 and #4)

2 - what if the #1 and #2 are precluded from reffing the final because their teams are playing? Step down #3 and perhaps now we wish we had more of a rotation policy, as #3 didn't even get a semi-final in your rigorous system.

Yes - I can see it. Teams will often pick their 2nd/3rd/4th choice #10 for the final, and perhaps the young #9, and then lets give the new prop a chance. Afterall they weren't the best all season, but perhaps all they need is the experience at the top level. And who cares if we win....... :sarc:

Refereeing should be no different. Prove yourself in the season and get the final. If you aren't the best, you don't deserve the final. And yes it is a competition amongst the refs. As you get closer to the top, you get to see what the others are doing, you know why they are ranked above you. You need to improve, and be better. (And yes - the "best" referee might depend on the criteria required for the game - so to be THE best you need to be the best in all departments, something that is unlikely, so there will be a small pool of the "best" referees.)

Browner
20-07-15, 16:07
JP has come out with some really good management this year.

http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/07/stay-in-real-world-ref-jp-doyle.html

With such amiable banter, he's surely destined for the very top !

Drift
21-07-15, 05:07
http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/07/stay-in-real-world-ref-jp-doyle.html

With such amiable banter, he's surely destined for the very top !

Sorry, I meant Jaco Peyper (JP). I haven't seen any of JP Doyle, apart from that clip.