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Accylad
09-04-15, 09:04
I am going mad looking for this!

Last night part of ToT for cup game. The ref says to the other AR who he had been AR for the previous night "I noticed you did not brief the front row last night". No came the reply, "not required by Law so to do".

I said, you really should you know..... Not required, don't do it came the emphatic response.

So I go looking.

It is not a law. I can't see it in RFU regs. I have searched posts on here.

Where does it say you MUST brief the front row?

I stand by to be deluged with astonished members who can't believe I can't spout the answer but there we are, I don't know and can't find it:shrug::shrug:

Help please!

Ps I always do!

OB..
09-04-15, 11:04
Prior to the 2000 re-write the law said "He must not give any advice prior to the match", which some people took to mean any pre-match brief was illegal.

My recollection is that when the new calls came out referees were told they should always include the procedure in their briefing. By now most referees mention it in passing rather than in detail.

Balones
09-04-15, 12:04
I can always remember a very experienced ref who had reffed what was called first class rugby in the old days advising a 5th team player who had volunteered to ref, when asked what he should do was told, " blow the whistle to start the game and blow the whistle to end the game. In between apply some laws that you know and keep everyone safe." It seems to me that that is all that most refs are required to do under the laws. Everything else is down to you to aid your management. :D

crossref
09-04-15, 12:04
we have had this discussion before
- there is no Law or Regualtion saying that the ref must give a front row brief
- it is well established as best practice to do a front row brief
- (but with less agreement about exactly what must/should/should not be said)


In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- yes
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- yes
- so why didn't you do one.

menace
09-04-15, 13:04
O
we have had this discussion before
- there is no Law or Regualtion saying that the ref must give a front row brief
- it is well established as best practice to do a front row brief
- (but with less agreement about exactly what must/should/should not be said)


In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- yes
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- yes
- so why didn't you do one.

Except when it goes like this.
In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would not trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- I don't know I don't attend dev meetings. Ive not heard it and they've not given me any written doco about it?
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- no..the scrum pack have been coached so they know what to do?
- so why didn't you do one.
- didn't we just go through that? Oh did you know there's this little book with all the laws of the game and it's not in there!

crossref
09-04-15, 14:04
@menace - yes, indeed if those were honest answers.

In reality though it would be a very unususl ref who
- on the one hand has detailed knowledge of the Laws and Regs, and exatly what is and isn't required
- but on the other has no idea at all about what other refs all do, and the best practice/training advised by his union or society

I am not saying that such a ref might not exist!


A better defence might be yes I am aware that PMB are advised, but could get no definitive statement of what should be in it .. different advice I got was conflicting and confusing. I ascertained from the Laws/Regs that they are not actually mandatory, so in the face of this confusion decided not to do one.

Browner
09-04-15, 14:04
Or, " it was so incredibly brief, its often missed" :shrug:

if you subscribe to the view that it aids scrum "management" then other than the time saving, why dispense with it?

OB..
09-04-15, 14:04
O

Except when it goes like this.
In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would not trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- I don't know I don't attend dev meetings. Ive not heard it and they've not given me any written doco about it?
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- no..the scrum pack have been coached so they know what to do?
- so why didn't you do one.
- didn't we just go through that? Oh did you know there's this little book with all the laws of the game and it's not in there!Assuming that the referee has never been assessed? Perhaps you have even fewer assessors than we do.

menace
09-04-15, 15:04
Assuming that the referee has never been assessed? Perhaps you have even fewer assessors than we do.

Well Aust is a big place...with some way out places that may not have many assessors/coaches.

But I was merely pointing out that word of mouth may not go as far as we might hope in the absence of written directives/laws!

beckett50
09-04-15, 15:04
Accylad, it isn't in the LotG; but...

I believe that it is good practice to brief the front rows, because it will not only help in your game management but also identify the FR replacements.

I presume this AR did not pre-match team talk, and didn't even talk with the Captains other than pose the question "Kick or ends?".

Beggars belief.

Accylad
09-04-15, 22:04
Accylad, it isn't in the LotG; but...

I believe that it is good practice to brief the front rows, because it will not only help in your game management but also identify the FR replacements.

I presume this AR did not pre-match team talk, and didn't even talk with the Captains other than pose the question "Kick or ends?".

Beggars belief.

Don't know - wasn't at the previous match.

Thanks for the input everyone. Useful.

When I deliver refereeing courses for the RFU I will continue to tell them they should to a PMB....

crossref
09-04-15, 22:04
Accylad will you tell them they *shoikd* do one, or that they *must* do one?
Is there anything specific that you tell them must be in the PMB. Or can they say what they like?

Accylad
10-04-15, 08:04
Accylad will you tell them they *shoikd* do one, or that they *must* do one?
Is there anything specific that you tell them must be in the PMB. Or can they say what they like?

I always tell them that they MUST check stubs. I tell them there should be a front row brief that as a minimum covers the engagement sequence. Both are covered in practical sessions so they get the chance to check each other studs and give each other briefing.

RobLev
10-04-15, 08:04
O

Except when it goes like this.
In a court, say, I think the line of questioning that would not trip up or your ref is
- do your society advise everyone to do a Front Row Brief?
- I don't know I don't attend dev meetings. Ive not heard it and they've not given me any written doco about it?
- you accept that it is best practice ?
- no..the scrum pack have been coached so they know what to do?

So you didn't know what was best refereeing practice, and you took no steps to find out?


- so why didn't you do one.
- didn't we just go through that? Oh did you know there's this little book with all the laws of the game and it's not in there!

Not a good look...

menace
10-04-15, 09:04
Yes Roblev QC, I'm sure there are many other cross examination questions a lawyer can and will use to try and nail someone to the cross. I wasn't trying to run a mock trial. I already pointed out with OB what I was trying to demonstrate with my tongue in cheek counter example.

crossref
10-04-15, 09:04
my feeling is that if it ever happens that a PMB is a central question in a court case, the issue won't be whether or not the referee should do one, I thick it's extremely well established best practice and indeed normal practice for a ref to do a PMB, which includes the front row. To the extent that any ref not doing a PMB is remarked upon -- at games I watch if the ref doesn't do a PMB people immediately wonder if he is a 'proper' ref, and in terms of confidence from players and coaches he is starting on the back foot even before he blows the whistle.

No, the question will turn on the content, and WHAT was said. And what, if anything, MUST the ref say at a PMB?

This is much more hazy, and I think a prosecutor would find it very hard to demonstrate any *specific* content that everyone agrees must said. In fact opinions differ, PMBs differ, there is not prescription and the *contents* of a PMB are pretty much discretionary.


In another thread people talked about having a sending-off script. I don't think we need that, but if the front-row brief really is thought to be important for saftey reasons, perhaps refs should have precise script for that element of the PMB.

Browner
10-04-15, 13:04
Has there ever been an actual court case where a PMB (or its specific content) has been so scrutinised , or is the fear of a future ' court test' merely hypothetical ????

If anyone knows of one I'd like to read it.

menace
10-04-15, 15:04
my feeling is that if it ever happens that a PMB is a central question in a court case, the issue won't be whether or not the referee should do one, I thick it's extremely well established best practice and indeed normal practice for a ref to do a PMB, which includes the front row. To the extent that any ref not doing a PMB is remarked upon -- at games I watch if the ref doesn't do a PMB people immediately wonder if he is a 'proper' ref, and in terms of confidence from players and coaches he is starting on the back foot even before he blows the whistle.

.
Not sure I agree with that...I reckon 95% of players don't give 2 sh!ts about the PMB. They've heard the same crap a million times and just dial out within 15sec. You can see it in their eyes. I bet they wished it didn't happen.

crossref
10-04-15, 15:04
Not sure I agree with that...I reckon 95% of players don't give 2 sh!ts about the PMB. They've heard the same crap a million times and just dial out within 15sec. You can see it in their eyes. I bet they wished it didn't happen.

I don't disagree with that - but nevertheless if you don't do one, they wonder what's going on.

my feeling now is that there are a few admin-like things they DO want to know, things that are different from each ref and they wan to know how you will do it
- when is the ball out at a ruck?
- how are you going to mark the lineout (mark the centre line or mark the defending line)
- if a lineout isn't contested does it matter how straight the throw is (I have been asked that three times this season!)

what glazes them over is anything that is the same each week (crouch - bind -- etc)


My observation about them being expected I was thinking about the youth games I watch, where I see a variety of refs of differnet standards - appointed soc refs, experienced club refs, kids just starting out.

At these games coaches/players/parents are quick to form a judgement. Everyone knows that refs do a PMB, and any ref NOT doing a PMB is usually someone lacking in confidence, and not a good sign.

As a very wise person once told me: if before the game you look and sound like a ref, then when you blow the whistle there is more chance they'll treat you like a ref.

Browner
10-04-15, 15:04
Not sure I agree with that...I reckon 95% of players don't give 2 sh!ts about the PMB. They've heard the same crap a million times and just dial out within 15sec. You can see it in their eyes. I bet they wished it didn't happen.

That's how I view their listening, however I see it mainly for my benefit & culpability avoidance.

The Front Rowers benefit to them is that if they follow it then theyre less likely to get paralysed which means after each game that they play they should come up to me and thank me for the safe management of the scrum, allowing them to "give a shi!t next week" without a personal carer being needed !!

The umpire
10-04-15, 16:04
The Front Rowers benefit to them is that if they follow it then theyre less likely to get paralysed

So, what do you tell a Suitably Trained and Experienced front row in the short PMB that he doesn't already know from becoming Suitably Trained and Experienced or is in the Law Book?

OB..
10-04-15, 16:04
So, what do you tell a Suitably Trained and Experienced front row in the short PMB that he doesn't already know from becoming Suitably Trained and Experienced or is in the Law Book?They are all trained to try and cheat if at all possible.

Treadmore
10-04-15, 17:04
my feeling is that if it ever happens that a PMB is a central question in a court case, the issue won't be whether or not the referee should do one, I thick it's extremely well established best practice and indeed normal practice for a ref to do a PMB, which includes the front row. To the extent that any ref not doing a PMB is remarked upon -- at games I watch if the ref doesn't do a PMB people immediately wonder if he is a 'proper' ref, and in terms of confidence from players and coaches he is starting on the back foot even before he blows the whistle.

I've seen several refs instil a lack of confidence from their PMBs!



No, the question will turn on the content, and WHAT was said. And what, if anything, MUST the ref say at a PMB?

This is much more hazy, and I think a prosecutor would find it very hard to demonstrate any *specific* content that everyone agrees must said. In fact opinions differ, PMBs differ, there is not prescription and the *contents* of a PMB are pretty much discretionary.


In another thread people talked about having a sending-off script. I don't think we need that, but if the front-row brief really is thought to be important for saftey reasons, perhaps refs should have precise script for that element of the PMB.

I think the lack of mandated content or even need for a PMB means that if you had an eye to covering your back in a court case then you would be better off not doing one at all - whatever you do say can be used in evidence against you, not for you!

Pegleg
10-04-15, 18:04
Take the advise that you society gives you.

OB..
10-04-15, 18:04
I've seen several refs instil a lack of confidence from their PMBs!Sadly, so have I. They need to work on it as it is part of their game management skills.




I think the lack of mandated content or even need for a PMB means that if you had an eye to covering your back in a court case then you would be better off not doing one at all - whatever you do say can be used in evidence against you, not for you!It depends what you said, and more importantly, how you followed through during the game.

When I lived in the USA I remember being advised not to bother clearing snow/ice off the sidewalk. If I didn't make a good job of it, people who fell could sue. The argument had its attractions. The claim was that if I did nothing people could not sue Mother Nature. Fortunately the theory did not get tested.

Browner
10-04-15, 19:04
So, what do you tell a Suitably Trained and Experienced front row in the short PMB that he doesn't already know from becoming Suitably Trained and Experienced or is in the Law Book?

Good question and I get your suggestion, but in effect you're advocating that a PMB isn't ever needed, which if supported by the RFU means it would get dropped? So why is it retained?

I have no way of knowing if a player is STE or not, I rely on the captain/manager integrity, but if I PMB then I'm happier that its safer than it would be if I didn't. I've ticked my personal 'safety' duty of care box.

FlipFlop
10-04-15, 22:04
I am currently doing some training for another sport, which requires participants to sign a legal disclaimer. I've signed this a lot of times myself, and considered it worthless. But it appears that the main purpose is to use it as part of the Duty of Care. By getting the participants to sign the form, the instructor has shown he is following best practise, and therefore can be shown in a court to have exercised best practise, and so is less likely to be found guilty of negligence in the event of a court case.

Do I think the form is worth the paper it is written on? No - as a participant, it means nothing. But if anything were to happen, it protects the instructor, by allowing them to show they followed standard procedures and hence exercised their duty of care. Of course if in others areas they showed negligence, then they can still be found guilty. And this has been tested in courts in various jurisdictions.

I think the PMB is similar. It shows you followed standard procedures, and so is easy for you to show you showed the necessary duty of care. Still be sued and lose - yes. But why not help protect yourself.

I think it is far better in court to say - "I followed all standard procedures - which includes a PMB". Then your lawyer can ask the FR - what did the Ref say in his PMB, and when they say "No idea - don't listen" - it is shown they are not taking their responsibility. And so it becomes harder to blame the ref.....

The umpire
10-04-15, 22:04
They are all trained to try and cheat if at all possible.

So, your PMB is "Please lads, no cheating"?


Take the advise that you society gives you.

The last conversation I had was that there was no requirement for one in law or RFU regulations and there was no advised content for one if you did it.


Good question and I get your suggestion, but in effect you're advocating that a PMB isn't ever needed, which if supported by the RFU means it would get dropped? So why is it retained?

No, I tell them my view of things where there are different views and interpretations, e.g. when the ball is out of the ruck, if I'm putting my hand up at lines out, and what really pi$$es me off.
I don't tell the fly half how I want him to kick or pass, I don't tell the full back not to drop the Garryowens and I don't tell the front row how to scrummage.

OB..
11-04-15, 11:04
So, your PMB is "Please lads, no cheating"?Of course not. My point is that you check they are all STE, but you know that does not mean they will want to stick to the laws if they can get away with cheating. You are not going to tell them how to scrummage, but you can tell them that, for example, your cadence will not be timed, but will depend on them complying with the various stages.


The last conversation I had was that there was no requirement for one in law or RFU regulations and there was no advised content for one if you did it.Our novice referees are given guidelines. I have never come across a referee who does not give a PMB, and would comment adversely if I did (after discussing his choice with him)


No, I tell them my view of things where there are different views and interpretations, e.g. when the ball is out of the ruck, if I'm putting my hand up at lines out, and what really pi$$es me off. So you agree there is value in a PMB.

I don't tell the fly half how I want him to kick or pass, I don't tell the full back not to drop the Garryowens and I don't tell the front row how to scrummage.The first two have nothing to do with legality. Scrummaging is something you will penalise if they do it illegally.

The umpire
11-04-15, 12:04
So you agree there is value in a PMB.

Indeed, I never said I didn't, but for the purposes described in my last post.
(I sometimes have my doubts, especially when "any questions?" gets "when is the ball out of the ruck?" which I have literally just described!)

OB..
11-04-15, 12:04
Indeed, I never said I didn't, but for the purposes described in my last post.
(I sometimes have my doubts, especially when "any questions?" gets "when is the ball out of the ruck?" which I have literally just described!):D Been there, heard that.

Pegleg
11-04-15, 13:04
The last conversation I had was that there was no requirement for one in law or RFU regulations and there was no advised content for one if you did it.


Then you've covered your back. Good on you. The advice we are given is different and we have been told (VERBALLY - nothing in writing) that the we are "on our own" if we fail to do one.

All you can do is chose whether to do what you are told to do or ignore the "advice". The you have to take the concequences of your choice on the chin. Don't moan IF you are told to do one and you chose not. If you are told it is "up to you" you're in the clear.

WombleRef
11-04-15, 22:04
My Front Row Brief:

Ok Gents, you know the drill - Crouch Bind Set. I want to see you Ear to Ear until I call set and do not push before the ball is in. Any questions?

Na Madrai
12-04-15, 09:04
Until the CTPE ceased, I gave a PMB to all players and substitutes that lasted a minute. It covered advantage, the set, the LO and appealing. It was simple, clear and set my stall out - and, on occasion, some players would join in with the final words! As long as I refereed to these simple instuctions, there seemed few problems.

However, I was advised by an assessor that I was opening myself up to a potential lawsuit if a major incident should occur - I should brief only the front row and strictly according to the guide lines - but he could provide none.

Since then, I do no PMB and until such time as I am given an official brief that is applicable to all, I will not do so.

At the first scrum, I hold up the engagement and inform both packs that all scrums are uncontested until the ball enters the tunnel and that all binding in rugby football must be shoulder to wrist. I then call crouch and get on with the game. I find that this is simple, clear and obvious and lets all forwards know exactly my requirements and is the nearest and only thing that gets near to a BMB.

Normally, apart from an annual MOT, I do not get assessed except this year, when I have been assessed three times - all of which were exemplary but none of which mentioned my not giving a PMB.

NM

Taff
12-04-15, 09:04
Then you've covered your back. Good on you. The advice we are given is different and we have been told (VERBALLY - nothing in writing) that the we are "on our own" if we fail to do one.
I've mentioned this before, but it's worth mentioning again - Why don't we all get given a summary version of the conditions from the Insurance policy? Because I can guarantee you there will be conditions.

I have to deal with Professional Indemnity Insurance (PII) for my business, and every year we get the documents through, I allocate a whole afternoon just to go through the conditions, just to make sure we don't get caught out and to summarise them.


... Normally, apart from an annual MOT, I do not get assessed except this year, when I have been assessed three times - all of which were exemplary but none of which mentioned my not giving a PMB.
Does your Assessor even listen in to your PMB? Off all the assessments I've had (about 5) and all the assessments others have had, I can only remember 1 where the Assessor specifically asked to listen into the PMB.

OB..
12-04-15, 13:04
I don't know about others, but I always ask the ref if he minds me listening in to the PMB, and there has never been any problem. I would be astonished if the referee said he did not plan to do one. It is the standard with my society and all the exchange referees I see.

I suppose this raises the question as to whether there is any need to check studs.

Pegleg
12-04-15, 14:04
I've mentioned this before, but it's worth mentioning again - Why don't we all get given a summary version of the conditions from the Insurance policy? Because I can guarantee you there will be conditions.


Indeed.

Pegleg
12-04-15, 14:04
I suppose this raises the question as to whether there is any need to check studs.


Why indeed.

Has anyone here ever instructed a player to change boots or any studs because of illegalities?


Has anyone here every sent a player off, or dealt in another way, with a player who has put an illegal stud ( or piece of equiptment) on AFTER the check?


Whilst we are told we must do it. I'll cover my backside though.

Pegleg
12-04-15, 14:04
However, I was advised by an assessor that I was opening myself up to a potential lawsuit if a major incident should occur - I should brief only the front row and strictly according to the guide lines - but he could provide none.




Well I'd have told the assessor: "With all due respect until you can give me chapter and verse on the guidelines. I'll go by by societies instructions and not yours."

Browner
12-04-15, 14:04
I was assessed yesterday, he specifically declined listening to the PMB.

I was surprised, because its clearly the first interaction in game management communication with the captains, from which in-match referal to it follows.

colesy
12-04-15, 15:04
I suppose this raises the question as to whether there is any need to check studs.

Studs are different in the sense that Law 4.5(a) compels the ref to carry out a stud check.

Taff
12-04-15, 15:04
I was assessed yesterday, he specifically declined listening to the PMB. I was surprised, because its clearly the first interaction in game management communication with the captains, from which in-match referal to it follows.
Exactly. Why wouldn't an Assessor want to see how you do the whole job?

OB..
12-04-15, 16:04
I was assessed yesterday, he specifically declined listening to the PMB.Did he say why?

One of our former assessors declined to use a listening kit. He claimed he could get all he wanted from the referee's use of signals, whistle, and commands. I asked about the referee having a quiet word with players, and he wasn't bothered. I think it is an important part of match management.

Balones
12-04-15, 16:04
Listening to the PMB at L5 and above is not part of protocol.
Occasionally at L5 (especially with a L6 ref being tried out) I have been asked to listen in so that i can give some guidance on its suitability for that level.
At L6 I have asked if he/she minds me listening in. At society level and with society refs it is accepted that the MO will listen in because it forms part of the ref's development programme.

Pegleg
12-04-15, 16:04
Listening to the PMB at L5 and above is not part of protocol.
Occasionally at L5 (especially with a L6 ref being tried out) I have been asked to listen in so that i can give some guidance on its suitability for that level.
At L6 I have asked if he/she minds me listening in. At society level and with society refs it is accepted that the MO will listen in because it forms part of the ref's development programme.

I can understand that, in principle. However, watching the scrum management of some top refs I'd be very interested to see what standards they have laid down.

"Do what you like lads. Oh 9, Chack the ball in so at least one player in the scrum needs touch it."

Browner
12-04-15, 17:04
Did he say why?

One of our former assessors declined to use a listening kit. He claimed he could get all he wanted from the referee's use of signals, whistle, and commands. I asked about the referee having a quiet word with players, and he wasn't bothered. I think it is an important part of match management.

He didn't say.

Within 5 mins of our meeting he'd informed me that he'd once assessed ' former international referee' and given him a poor report adding that the ' elite referee' had displayed an arogance that he'd 'suspected' was because the fixture was beneath him (?)

my PMB discussions must've been similarly disinteresting, least that's my presumption.

Browner
12-04-15, 17:04
Listening to the PMB at L5 and above is not part of protocol.
Occasionally at L5 (especially with a L6 ref being tried out) I have been asked to listen in so that i can give some guidance on its suitability for that level.
At L6 I have asked if he/she minds me listening in.
At society level and with society refs it is accepted that the MO will listen in because it forms part of the ref's development programme.

Balones, How far up the Levels are PMB's conducted, or ....at which level do they cease to be used?

matty1194
12-04-15, 18:04
Balones, How far up the Levels are PMB's conducted, or ....at which level do they cease to be used?

Browner, I dont know at what level's Balones is watching at but I can confirm with first hand experience that I have seen and heard PMB's being given at both Edinburgh and Glasgow for both their 1st XV and the A teams and the opposition before PRO12 matches and at this seasons 6 Nations matches as well as at the Scotland v NZ match in last year's Autumn internationals so the players do get given instructions of what the referee expects.

Balones
12-04-15, 19:04
Sorry, there seems to be some confusion. PMB's, as Matty1194 points out go all the way to the top - including Internationals. What I was referring to was the obligation/requirement for the Match Observer to listen in to the PMB, especially in relation to the front rows.

As a slight aside the nature of a PMB at the higher levels of the game go beyond simply a talk just before the game. A PMB at the higher levels does have different levels of input and, for example,could involve a discussion on interpreting the laws with the coaches present and not the players perhaps a couple of days before. At NL2 and above it is not unusual for a club coach to contact the ref and ask him questions about his expectations/requirements.

ddjamo
12-04-15, 20:04
Every time the old pmb topic comes up it turns into multiple pages and lots of concern. I haven't done (what most here consider) a proper pmb in years. I would never go back to it unless it was mandated by law. I have yet to have one single captain ask me to speak longer and repeat the typical pmb script. Most thank me for not putting them through it.

I have a hard time believing that the likes of sir Nige says much at all to a professional front rower unless it's something he has been told to say eg - a clarification. They all study each other and watch volumes of film for crying out loud.

There comes a point when the pmb becomes "talking down" to them.

matty1194
12-04-15, 22:04
Every time the old pmb topic comes up it turns into multiple pages and lots of concern. I haven't done (what most here consider) a proper pmb in years.

As an insight to us all what does your PMB consist of and is this you leading with this or have you taking advice from your Society?



I have a hard time believing that the likes of sir Nige says much at all to a professional front rower

I can categorically confirm that prior to a match Nige does speak to the FR and does lay out his expectations, when I have seen him and other recently appointed RWC referees during their PMB's they do lay out what they expect and as most will have heard from numerous referees during a televised match that the referee says, " we spoke about this before the match" I can back that up.

Pegleg
12-04-15, 23:04
Every time the old pmb topic comes up it turns into multiple pages and lots of concern. I haven't done (what most here consider) a proper pmb in years. I would never go back to it unless it was mandated by law. I have yet to have one single captain ask me to speak longer and repeat the typical pmb script. Most thank me for not putting them through it.

I have a hard time believing that the likes of sir Nige says much at all to a professional front rower unless it's something he has been told to say eg - a clarification. They all study each other and watch volumes of film for crying out loud.

There comes a point when the pmb becomes "talking down" to them.

It's Saint Nige if you don't mind!

Drift
13-04-15, 01:04
Why indeed.

Has anyone here ever instructed a player to change boots or any studs because of illegalities?


Has anyone here every sent a player off, or dealt in another way, with a player who has put an illegal stud ( or piece of equiptment) on AFTER the check?


Whilst we are told we must do it. I'll cover my backside though.

Yep. I've told players they need to change their studs or find other boots.

OB..
13-04-15, 11:04
Yep. I've told players they need to change their studs or find other boots.I presume the reason it does not often happen is that the players know there is going to be a boot check. The fact that it does occur occasionally means we are not just snapping our fingers to keep the elephants away.